Home Main Category Second Amendment/Politics

Pepper ball, meet antifa groin.

2

Replies

  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,858 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Can a riot be a single person? I see one guy and a bunch of people calmly shooting video.

    UmjNcCl.jpg

    And you make that assumption based on one still shot from a short video. Not the entire situation in the area. Which is exactly why these things are not looked at by Monday morning quarterbacks who have the luxury of making a decision based on limited information after the fact, and not the totality of circumstances and what was perceived by the people on the ground at that time. The irrational disdain for the profession guides the perception. Not what actually happened.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,727 Senior Member
    To hell with the nut-shot protester. He played the game and got his just reward. I think it's amusing.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,858 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    The guy kicked a can. He didn't throw it at anyone. He kicked it and returned to his position. The cops are wearing masks, riot gear, armor, AV's, helicopters, and fat boy with a water bottle and poor kicking skills is the imminent threat.

    I stand by my first statement: They shot him as punishment for kicking the can, NOT for being a threat.

    Here's where we get into the totality of circumstances. In your mind, which is made up by a short video clip and a disdain for an entire profession, this was a peaceful protest and the cops got mad at that guy and intentionally hurt him. You know nothing about what was happening in the area and during the time leading up to that event. And there needs to be some thought put into mob mentality. One agitator brings on more and the situation gets out of hand quickly. You don't let crowd agitators get out of control.

    As was pointed out, he didn't pick it up and throw it because it was hot. Those things burn hot. A real prepared crowd agitator would have had welding gloves with his gas mask. They're easy to spot in a crowd and you know those are the guys who's intent is to cause problems. So, you stop them.

    When you look at riots and crowd disturbances, when things start getting out of control, it has to be brought under control quickly. You deal with individuals, in an overwhelming crowd, being outnumbered and trying to control a large area. One on one is not an option. You find the ones who are there to cause problems and deal with them. The gas is to disperse the crowd. The pepper ball, bean bags and whatever other kind of individual attention there happens to be, is for the trouble makers. Don't be that guy. Then you don't get shot. Very simple, really.

    As far as standing by your first statement, of course you will. Nothing will change that. I know that. And that's fine. It's why I don't get into these discussions much. It will change nothing and that really doesn't matter to me. It's still fun having the discussion. At least others can possibly get something out of it.
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,858 Senior Member
    Diver43 wrote: »
    Here we go again with the anti Cop crap that almost got this section closed down

    No need for it to come to that. No name calling or insults. Just a discussion that will not make any difference to those with their mind made up, but maybe provides info for others. :group:
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 10,903 Senior Member
    Jay wrote: »
    No need for it to come to that. No name calling or insults. Just a discussion that will not make any difference to those with their mind made up, but maybe provides info for others. :group:

    Great way of thinking Jay, no wonder your a french model :up: :jester:
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,727 Senior Member
    Bottom line is I think whether you support antifa or LE. I seriously doubt whether the pepper ball launcher was accurate enough to target a guy's balls. I think it was a happy circumstance.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,858 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Bottom line is I think whether you support antifa or LE. I seriously doubt whether the pepper ball launcher was accurate enough to target a guy's balls. I think it was a happy circumstance.

    It didn't hit him there anyway. That was clearly shown. But you're right. Accuracy is not there enough to place that round on a semi moving target, in a stressful environment. Most pepper ball launchers are nothing but paintball guns. The FN303 is a rifled platform that shoots proprietary rounds and is accurate enough to place rounds like that, within a certain range and depending on circumstances. But we don't know what platform this was launched from. Either way, it was a good shot, good hit, and did exactly what it was fired to do.
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,858 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Can a riot be a single person? I see one guy and a bunch of people calmly shooting video.

    UmjNcCl.jpg

    And let's take this still shot and look at it. A bunch of people, calmly shooting a video. Except for the guy right next to the target. Who happens to be standing at the front, video recording with his right hand, and flipping the police off with his left, while looking back at the crowd. Crowd mentality. Once the can kicker does his thing and nothing is done about it, Mr Bird takes this as his cue to lead the crowd with him. Then, 2 other calm video shooters decide, since nothing is happening up there, I'll come up to the front. Then 12 people join in. And we end up with LA, Fergusson, (insert your choice of riot here). It's a good thing when command takes these things out quickly. Otherwise, stand back and let it burn. Then, regular citizens tend to get upset...

    ETA, BTW, watch the video again. Notice what Mr Bird did when Mr Can Kicker went down? He didn't become the next crowd agitator. He left.
  • shootbrownelkshootbrownelk Senior Member Posts: 2,035 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Bottom line is I think whether you support antifa or LE. I seriously doubt whether the pepper ball launcher was accurate enough to target a guy's balls. I think it was a happy circumstance.

    Too bad the cop didn't nail him in the forehead. These leftist protestors need a good beat-down.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,128 Senior Member
    Personally, I am curious how in any way doing this stuff advances their cause? Getting shot with pepper balls and kicking tear gas canisters seem like an odd way to make a point.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Personally, I am curious how in any way doing this stuff advances their cause? Getting shot with pepper balls and kicking tear gas canisters seem like an odd way to make a point.

    It was the same thing back in the '60s regarding the stupid stuff the 'protesters' and rioters did. Only differences is there weren't 10,000 people videoing the whole thing on smart phones and small hand held video equipment, and the cops had a lot more leeway as to how they passed out pop knots on the protesters and rioters noggins. Only real difference I see is the news media being on the side of the protesters and rioters.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,396 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Looks like battery to me. If he'd been shot while approaching the canister, fine. Shooting him after returning to his position? Clear intent to cause injury....

    When the cops are wrong, I will speak against it. But this is not the case here. This guy came prepared and with a plan.

    From your post...
    18. Acceptable uses of a less lethal force: To incapacitate a combative or physically resistive person whose conduct rises at least to the level of Active Aggression. The purpose is to neutralize the person to the point they can be safely controlled and taken into custody.
    Combative, resistive, agressive, check

    19. Acceptable uses of a less lethal force: This use of force option becomes necessary when other force options would be inappropriate or ineffective under the circumstances and it is reasonable and necessary in order to attempt to avoid having to use deadly force.
    Better choice than shooting him, check. Safer for all involved, check

    20. Acceptable uses of a less lethal force: Active Aggression is defined as a threat or overt act of an assault, coupled with the present ability to carry out the threat or assault, which reasonably indicates that an assault or injury to any person is imminent.
    resisted the break up orders, thus the gas in the first place, gas mask gives the ability to carry on being a dink through gas, check.

    21. Acceptable uses of a less lethal force: To incapacitate a suicidal person who cannot be safely controlled with other force options. The cops could have waded in with shields and clubs. Is using gas a alternative? Check.

    I dont see a problem here.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    I think the guy got off easy. I would have probably charged him with whatever they let you have for a billy club, whenever he charged in to kick the can.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,142 Senior Member
    When the cops are wrong, I will speak against it. But this is not the case here. This guy came prepared and with a plan.



    I dont see a problem here.

    Same here.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    Well, since tear gas isn't working to move the people out of the area, it might be time for the police to 'up the ante' as it were. Still a gas, but it's a lot more effective than CS. Bring out the chloropicrin gas and let the unruly protesters and rioters have all they can stand. Hard to get your 'righteous indignation' up to rock throwing level when you're puking up your toenails. Definitely takes the wind out of their sails.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    At first I thought you were being sarcastic.....then I realized you were actually making an issue of this.....


    The guy was not a threat when shot. If they'd lit his ass up when he approached the canister, I'd laugh right along with everyone else.

    Instead, the bandwagon arrives using every excuse imaginable to justify the use of force by government agents.

    When did we abandon "question authority?"
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    I wish the company making these non-lethals would come up with some way the give them accuracy enough so LEOs could target the idiots cell phones! Bruises heal but knock the cell phone out of a snowflakes hands with a pepper round and watch them really be offended.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,727 Senior Member
    If you run with the bulls, you can expect to get gored. He showed an intention to continue to kick gas canisters back (with is simple assault) and got gored. I guess he perhaps learned a lesson. Never question authority when authority brings an ass whooping with it.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 10,903 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    The guy was not a threat when shot. If they'd lit his ass up when he approached the canister, I'd laugh right along with everyone else.

    Instead, the bandwagon arrives using every excuse imaginable to justify the use of force by government agents.

    When did we abandon "question authority?"

    If he had been hit while approaching the canister then fell on the canister and got badly burned would it be the LEOs fault? Or would the Police have been wrong for shooting him because he hadn't kicked it yet?
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,914 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    The guy was not a threat when shot. If they'd lit his ass up when he approached the canister, I'd laugh right along with everyone else.

    Instead, the bandwagon arrives using every excuse imaginable to justify the use of force by government agents.

    When did we abandon "question authority?"

    The guy was in the wrong place at the wrong time....and got whacked by an errant projectile....what "authority" is there to question?
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,026 Senior Member
    As a moderator (who's keeping a close eye on this board), I have to admit, this thread has been civil.

    I'm proud of you folks.

    Various opinions, but civil.

    That's pretty much all we were asking.
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,026 Senior Member
    And, as a Marine, it was entirely within the ROE to shoot someone in the back while they were running away after attacking you. In fact, it was highly recommended.

    If they stopped and turned around, well........

    Antifa idiot.

    See my sigline.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Kneecap him with a 5.56 and see if he tries to kick anything, ever again. Maybe he could run over the next gas canister with his wheelchair! Unless these idiots start taking some real casualties, they're going to keep thinking it's all a big game and they're immune to any consequences.
    Jerry
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,026 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Kneecap him with a 5.56 and see if he tries to kick anything, ever again. Maybe he could run over the next gas canister with his wheelchair! Unless these idiots start taking some real casualties, they're going to keep thinking it's all a big game and they're immune to any consequences.
    Jerry

    .556 would be a bit harsh in that particular situation. I think the LEO's did exactly what needed doing, with the proper level of force.

    And let's face it....as Zee observed it was likely an errant, albiet lucky, shot.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    I agree- - - - -anything over .50 caliber would be inappropriate in that situation!
    :jester:
    Jerry
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,026 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    I agree- - - - -anything over .50 caliber would be inappropriate in that situation!
    :jester:
    Jerry

    Darn spell check
    😉
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    Government overreach and excessive force is always ok when used against people you strongly disagree with!

    Let's be honest about this. Questioning authority and exercising the right to peaceably assemble and petition the government for a redress of grievances is protected and I'd be the first to scream 'FOUL' and take to task ANYONE that tried to suppress that exercise of a valid Constitutional right. That isn't what these people were, and have been, doing. They are not there for any reason except confrontation with anyone who holds a different view and mix it up with the police. Their mantra right now is "Punch a Nazi" and they bring all kinds of improvised weapons with them to do that. If one is a Conservative, then they are labeled a Nazi by these freaks. I don't, can't, and won't support that at any level. They engage in mob violence and beat the crap out of anyone they can single out from a crowd, and the older or weaker, the better.

    They can question authority and scream so hard that they cough a lung. I don't care; it's their right to do so. Confronting the cops to start some crap, and attacking people with different views is in no way an exercise in questioning authority. That's just rioting and criminal civil disobedience of the law. Mob mentality at its worst.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,727 Senior Member
    I can't think of a single good thing that ever came out of mob violence. I'm not even sure what the can kicker was for or against. The world is turning to crap, lately, and mob mentality is being fed by websites and media if not applauding mobs, at least giving them a vale of righteousness. Because Trump is hated by antifa and most of the media. They're in a minority, but a minority with a loud voice and even media who should know better are asking if 1st Amendment rights are conditional politically. A spoiled bunch of losers who soak up victimhood like a wino soaks up a bottle of white port because it gives each of them something they need to survive.

    It cannot continue to go as it is and us survive as a nation. Putting unreasonable restraints of Amendment 1 and putting unreasonable restraints on cops will lead to resentment and chaos.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • ArmoredmanArmoredman Member Posts: 362 Member
    Incidentally, the AntiFa agitator in question has both been identified and arrested for unlawful assembly, (after being ordered to disperse), ad three counts of assault on peace officers, I assume for kicking the gas can deliberately at the LE line. He apparently was bragging about it on social media and was located/ID/snatched up.
    Sometimes karma lets you watch...
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,128 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Trump is hated by antifa and most of the media. They're in a minority.
    Nope..
    He is hated by the majority...
    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html
    That tends to give things a new dimension.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
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