Driving while ???

In another thread, alphasigmookie wrote "Driving while black is unfortunately still a thing ..."

I responded with a pair of similar personal incidents that undercut that notion and included an old Chris Rock video that used humor to show that DWB is exacerbated by non-compliance more than by racist cops.

Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

Some have suggested that, racist or not, such police investigations and detention are unjustified. The US Supreme Court ruled in Terry v. Ohio that, what "the Constitution forbids is not all searches and seizures, but unreasonable searches and seizures ..."

So what do you think crosses the line into racism or unconstitutional behavior at a traffic or pedestrian stop?
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Replies

  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,429 Senior Member
    You'll get accustomed to Alpha's liberal whining- - - - -eventually. Some people with a chip on their shoulder will go around looking for reasons to be offended, real or imaginary. They're called "liberals", "progressives", or whatever the current buzzword for parasites on the public teat happens to be. They're best ignored, as their comments are mostly irrelevant.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    I would consider searches, seizures, and detentions to be unreasonable if based on conclusions that are not derived from actual and tangible evidence.

    Where things lend themselves to unjust individual manipulations is in interpretation of the law. Police, courts and attorneys can twist, bend, and tie some of this stuff up until constitutional rights become arbitrary.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • SkolnickSkolnick Member Posts: 47 Member
    early wrote: »
    I would consider searches, seizures, and detentions to be unreasonable if based on conclusions that are not derived from actual and tangible evidence.

    I have been detained on two separate occasions for walking while White in a Black neighborhood of Detroit. The color of my skin and that of the vast preponderance of residences in that area are tangible details.

    In both instances, I was stopped because my the color of my skin made it highly improbable that I lived that neighborhood. The police wanted to know what I was doing in that area, and held me in the back of their squad car while they checked my story. Both times I was held for less than 10 minutes.

    Here in Chicago, we have a Chinatown that is near a very bad neighborhood. When the police spot tourists heading in the wrong direction (even by car), they will stop said tourists and point them back to Chinatown.

    If a cop thinks that race, or skin color, is something to be acted upon, is that racism or bowing to the reality of the circumstances?
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    Skolnick wrote: »

    If a cop thinks that race, or skin color,preponderan to be acted upon, is that racism or bowing to the reality of the circumstances?

    I messed up the quote a little, my bad.
    I think race is a relevant factor in many circumstances, and then it becomes a matter of application and interpretation on a case by case basis. This is where respect of law enforcement personnel as individuals and as a profession becomes important. In some cases these men and women are being asked to do a great deal indeed.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,857 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    You'll get accustomed to Alpha's liberal whining- - - - -eventually. Some people with a chip on their shoulder will go around looking for reasons to be offended, real or imaginary. They're called "liberals", "progressives", or whatever the current buzzword for parasites on the public teat happens to be. They're best ignored, as their comments are mostly irrelevant.
    Jerry

    Yeah, in reality their comments are irrelevant but they make an impression or false impression I should say on the middle grounders. Not to say I believe that some of their bitch isn't real, but a vast majority is caused by just what has been said, most of the problem is brought on by non compliance AND I might add by attitude. The Dummycraps give credence to their BLM Bitch so they grow a chip on their shoulder and flaunt it. Then others see things written or hear their whining and chime in, thinking if so many are saying it, it must be true. This is all brought to us by our local Dummycratic party so they can drum up votes from minorities and Bleeding Heart Libtard Whites.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,230 Senior Member
    If I was stopped and detained, no matter how brief in a "black" neighborhood because I am white, I would be pissed just as the police have no business stopping and detaining black people in a "white" neighborhood. If it happened in my community, I would be at the next municipal meeting calling for heads on sticks. Whose business is it to determine where I should be if I am not breaking any laws?
  • Jack BurtonJack Burton Member Posts: 379 Member
    I had a few odysseys in the mid 90's. I worked late nights in Pine Hills, which is not a very nice place northeast of Orlando. I drove an '84 Buick Le Sabre, a very desirable vehicle to steal, and within 3 months of owning it someone had tried to do just that. That little rear blindside window was broken out one night but they failed to steal the car. I didn't have the money to fix it on an $8 per hour salary so I drove around for a while with a busted out window. I had no idea what a "pull-over" magnet it was going to be.

    First time was an Orange County Deputy at about 12:30 am. It was a helluva time to wonder how to handle the situation as a new CWP holder. Once stopped, the lights from his cruiser were positively blinding. I realized I could not tell when or where he may appear at my window, so disarming myself at that point did not seem like a good idea so I kept my hands at 10 & 2 with DL and registration at the ready. He almost surprised me at the drivers side window. I gave him my docs, he went to check on me, after a few he returned and let me go on my way. No mention of the reason he pulled me over and I did not think to ask.

    A few weeks later roughly same time was an entirely different story. OPD this time, not that I could tell by the same blinding light, but a voice over the loud speaker telling me to exit my vehicle was a departure. I had no idea if he had a partner off to the side of me, so again disarming at that moment did not seem like a good idea. I did what I was told, exited with wallet and registration in my hand. He approached me asking for DL and Reg as I began to go into my wallet he asked, "Any drugs or weapons on you?" I answered honestly that I had a CWP and was indeed armed. Then the commands to.....
    "Turn around put your hands on your head!" As he pulled his weapon, but keeping it low. He told me to go to my knees and cross my legs (shin over calf). I was in this position until the officers 3 or 4 back-ups arrived less than a minute later. At which point I was cuffed and eased to a face down position. They took my wallet and reg. They asked where my weapon was. I told them and they took it. After a few minutes I was informed of a fire ant mound near by it's inhabitants on my left arm. I asked to be stood up, I was denied the request. The fire ants really got going and I begged the officers for relief, telling them of the ants. They finally allowed me to sit on my rear bumper and brushed me off a little. This is when the night sergeant told me what a dumb ass I was for getting out of my vehicle while packing. I replied that it wouldn't have been good for my health if I was found handling a weapon if the officer came to the window. "We don't do that at night." was the sergeants reply. "How am I to know that?" was mine. He had no further information to give with that. I just wanted to go home.

    I was soon handed back all of my belongings, including CCW which they put on my front passenger seat with empty mag and lose ammo and allowed to go on my way. I was not cited for any thing nor given a reason for being pulled over. Fire ant bites totaled around 10 or so.

    Today I disarm at the first sign that the police are going to pull me over. I can get it into the center console before coming to a stop. This may not be ideal, but I feel more comfortable in case the script doesn't go how I envision it.
    Came for the fishing, stayed for the guns.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,737 Senior Member
    The word "reasonable" is the crux of the discussion. NYC believes stopping and frisking everyone is reasonable and constitutional. California thinks ten day waiting periods, registration of guns, purchase limitations, reduced capacity magazines, fingerprinting, etc is reasonable and constitutional.

    That said, being detained for walking is not reasonable. There must be PC to detain a citizen. White guy in a black neighborhood or black guy in a white neighborhood is irrelevant.

    If you let the cops dictate what reasonable means, we'll have stop and frisk nationwide.

    If I was stopped while walking, I'd turn on my phone's video and ask clearly why I am being detained. Unless the cop has a tangible answer, I'll ask "am I free to go?" paying close attention to the cop's demeanor. If he's agitated, I'll submit. I'm always armed and that will further complicate things.

    In my hypothetical scenario, the cop's actions are not reasonable nor legal, but I'm not getting shot because I dared question the police. This is the reality that is America. Citizens possibly risking their lives defending their rights. Unreasonable, IMO.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,258 Senior Member
    Stop and Frisk no longer happens in NYC...the mayor put a stop to that. Unfairly targeted minorities.

    Something out of the ordinary is enough to stop someone briefly and question him. The officer who stopped the citizen for Walking While White no doubt knows the neighborhood better than the white guy did. Time of day is relevant. It's not a crime to go into a minority neighborhood, but neither is it a crime to ask him what he's doing there. In my limited experience, something out of place is enough to warrant a question or two.

    Cops have an obligation to minimally intrude in a citizen's life, but it's better to ask a question or two than over-look a possible burglary, or a drug deal, or in the worst case scenario, a murder.

    SCOTUS is the extreme arbitrator of reasonableness. Terry v Ohio defines the parameters of a reasonable Stop, which is less than an Arrest.

    If you get stopped for any reason, Do NOT reach into your pocket for your camera, especially if you're armed. Your action may be misinterpreted as reaching for a weapon.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,737 Senior Member
    The next mayor of NYC can reinstate it. The police protested the stoppage because "crime has declined" because of the practice. This and criticizing the police for some questionable killings got the mayor labeled "anti-cop".

    No worries, I'll have the phone out before he stops. I'm pretty decent at situational awareness.

    Friday morning, I stopped at the ATM in a small town shopping center. It was dark and there was a guy walking, hot boxing a cigarette, and carrying a full black garbage bag like Santa. My first thought was "you are begging to get stopped by police." Although his actions are not illegal, I think the cops would be justified questioning him. I use this example to clarify my position about the difference between simply walking and walking around suspiciously.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,078 Senior Member
    After my winter beater broke down in my younger days (late 60s)I was walking home on a route that took me through "the projects"....I was stopped for walking while white...after determining that I was not a threat nor had any warrants, the black officer told me I was the wrong color to be in this particular neighborhood and was going to either end up in the hospital or the morgue....he then told me to get in the car and he gave me a ride home..,
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,968 Senior Member
    I was stopped while walking in San Diego for having a short haircut.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,429 Senior Member
    In some of the neighborhoods where I have to go on business, I stick out like a polar bear in a coal pile. I welcome the presence of a cop nearby in those situations- - - -it just might keep me from having to shoot somebody.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,230 Senior Member
    Friday night... me and 5 other white boys went into a black neighborhood in Detroit and tore up the sidewalks. Cops never showed.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,230 Senior Member
    I do all kinds of crazy stuff down there. I break into abandoned homes, block off whole streets, drive the wrong way on one way streets, park in no parking zones...

    Yet with all the many, many interactions I have had with police, I was never once placed into a cruiser. They have checked my ID and ran my plates quite a bit though.
  • john9001john9001 Senior Member Posts: 668 Senior Member
    without probable cause and without a warrant is a unreasonable search.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,429 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Yet with all the many, many interactions I have had with police, I was never once placed into a cruiser.

    Of course not- - - - - -they probably didn't have a 5-pound bucket of lard and a shoehorn! I got my first-ever ride in the back seat of a patrol car last week- - - - -the deputy was giving me a ride to buy a can of fix a flat after the spare tire we had just put on my van didn't have enough air in it to drive on!
    :jester:
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,230 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Yet with all the many, many interactions I have had with police, I was never once placed into a cruiser.*

    *= In recent years. I have spent my share of time in the back of a cruiser, but I was younger and dumber then. And to reply to Jerry-- yea, they need to help squeeze my ass into that hard plastic seat. My legs are too long and my head hits the ceiling.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,230 Senior Member
    I have been arrested and placed in the front seat too. That again was the young, dumb years-- driving while stupid.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,230 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    There are ANY cops left in Detroit?!?!?!?!?!?
    Yes. But I will not comment on pending litigation.

    But let me say that on all those occasions, I was just doing my job and making the city a better place.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,258 Senior Member
    The one of many problems of dealing with a cop precipitously is you don't know his reason for initiating a stop. Someone may have called you in as a suspicious person, which you know you're not and a fine person, the cop doesn't know this. Or you may look out of place, like the guy with the bag that Cali reported. It aroused his suspicion although the guy hadn't done anything in the view of Cali, but Cali thought he looked suspicious, and if most cops (all?) saw him, they'd almost certainly entertain the same suspicion and ask him questions.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,375 Senior Member
    There are a lot of reasons this "phenomenon" has become a phenomenon. There is a sub-culture within the black community that has fostered and even reveled in the reputation of being outlaw. Because of this, there is a feeling amongst law enforcement, that certain behaviors suggest criminality. Good cops have instincts that make them tune in to certain visuals. Many major crimes have been solved by seemingly random stops. Both black and white suspects.

    Now, within this black sub-culture, there is an element of disdain for authority (of any kind). It shows in manner, language, dress... all aspects of one's behavior.

    Additionally, there are far too many cops who have a bit of an inferiority complex when it comes to anyone questioning their "authority." When it happens, the cops all-to-often react inappropriately. This escalates into a situation that can easily make the cop look badly.

    But driving while black is mostly a myth. Not unheard of, but mostly mythical. The town I lived in for the last 25 years had lots of black people. For the most part, they were military, ex-military, military retired and military dependents. They weren't hassled inappropriately. Perhaps what was missing was the element of poor behavior?

    The other day, when it was 94 degrees, I saw a black guy sprinting down the street with a doo-rag, long sleeves and long pants and a yellow traffic vest. Sprinting. I watched him for several hundred yards and he didn't slow down. This was 4pm in the afternoon. Odd behavior. If I'd have been a cop, I'd have stopped him to see if he was alright...coz he certainly didn't seem all right in the head! The fact that he was black was only a small fraction of the whole picture.

    But, I'd bet he'd claim I stopped him because he was black.
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,149 Senior Member
    Skolnick wrote: »
    I have been detained on two separate occasions for walking while White in a Black neighborhood of Detroit. The color of my skin and that of the vast preponderance of residences in that area are tangible details...................

    I can't speak for the police involved, but my suspicion is that because you were a white guy in a black neighborhood, that gave police the suspicion that you were either in that neighborhood looking to buy drugs, or you already bought some and were on your way out. I'm not saying their suspicions were justified, or even legal to stop you, but I am willing to bet that was the reason in both cases. Not many white people will go into black areas for obvious reasons....out of fear of being attacked.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,744 Senior Member

    Now, within this black sub-culture, there is an element of disdain for authority (of any kind). It shows in manner, language, dress... all aspects of one's behavior.

    Additionally, there are far too many cops who have a bit of an inferiority complex when it comes to anyone questioning their "authority." When it happens, the cops all-to-often react inappropriately. This escalates into a situation that can easily make the cop look badly.

    I'm just saying maybe it's harder to have respect for authority when you feel like you are being unfairly targeted and harrassed by said authority?

    I would say that general feeling of being unfairly targeted is backed up by statistics:

    Here are a few stats. While stops are only 30% higher for blacks, searches are 3x higher.

    https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=702

    Tons of recent reports on searches finding blacks significantly more likely to be searched, but less likely to find illegal activity. Basically searched on weak PC while whites only searched on strong PC.

    https://www.columbiamissourian.com/news/local/racial-search-disparities-run-deep-according-to-new-analysis-of/article_203b3560-9230-11e6-a837-7fd6d0777779.html

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/10/27/police-are-searching-black-drivers-more-often-but-finding-more-illegal-stuff-with-white-drivers-2/?utm_term=.0c4c9743d789


    The greatest signifyer for racial bias in policing though is pot arrests. More whites smoke pot, but 4x as many blacks are arrested for pot than whites.

    https://www.aclu.org/gallery/marijuana-arrests-numbers
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    When I was working at Sequoyah Nuclear Plant, and before I moved out of the outskirts of Chattanooga, I got stopped a few times 'driving while white' through a black neighborhood after midnight going home. It was a bad neighborhood after dark. It was the most direct route to and from work, though, and I was forced over to the next shift pretty often. Funniest was a time in the middle of December. It was right at freezing, I'd just gotten off at 3:00 a.m. after working 20 hours due to a unit trip from an equipment failure, and was so tired that I was driving with the driver's side window open so the cold air on my face would keep me awake. A black Chattanooga cop pulled me over right in the middle of the black neighborhood and asked me what I was doing going through the neighborhood at that time of night. His partner was running my DL, reg. and insurance. I told him where I worked, what happened at the plant, and that the route was the one I always drove to get home. He finally admitted that he pulled me over because I was driving with the window down when it was so cold. When I explained that I was really, REALLY sleepy and that was keeping me awake after a 20 hour shift he decided that was a good reason. He and his partner followed me home to make sure I got there O.K. without going to sleep at the wheel.

    I was still wearing my security badge and my parking permit was hanging from the rear view mirror so I guess that helped him know I wasn't giving him a line of bull squeeze. The cops working that area finally got used to seeing me going through after midnight and didn't bother me.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,375 Senior Member
    Hence my argument that citizen attitude and police attitude makes for altercations. Blacks are several times more likely to push the envelope. Police are several times more likely to be assaulted by black suspects. It goes on and on. Progressive theory is the greatest ill to face the world since the last asteroid!
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,737 Senior Member
    I can't speak for the police involved, but my suspicion is that because you were a white guy in a black neighborhood, that gave police the suspicion that you were either in that neighborhood looking to buy drugs, or you already bought some and were on your way out. I'm not saying their suspicions were justified, or even legal to stop you, but I am willing to bet that was the reason in both cases. Not many white people will go into black areas for obvious reasons....out of fear of being attacked.

    In the mid 80's I lived in N. Long Beach, CA one block from the Compton, CA border. Very few white boys in that 'hood.

    Several times I was approached/stopped by police and asked about drugs. The address on my ID solved the issue promptly.
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    Hence my argument that citizen attitude and police attitude makes for altercations. Blacks are several times more likely to push the envelope. Police are several times more likely to be assaulted by black suspects. It goes on and on. Progressive theory is the greatest ill to face the world since the last asteroid!

    Attitude will make or break a contact with the police, most times. If ya act like an anus chapeau to the officer(s) you'll likely not be treated as well as when acting like someone that wasn't raised by wolves. Back in my teen years it was called 'copping an attitude' and generally went poorly.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,731 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Attitude will make or break a contact with the police, most times. If ya act like an anus chapeau to the officer(s) you'll likely not be treated as well as when acting like someone that wasn't raised by wolves. Back in my teen years it was called 'copping an attitude' and generally went poorly.

    "Being found in Contempt of Cop"
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,429 Senior Member
    I've noticed a big change in a cop's attitude- - - -usually for the better- - - -when I hand him my CCW permit along with my driver's license. Maybe knowing he's not the only one in the situation who's armed makes a difference.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
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