So we need more transfer of wealth??

13

Replies

  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,549 Senior Member
    So you're saying is that maybe a large chunk of the people on disability are actually legitimately disabled and not just leaches abusing the system?

    what he is saying is that the higher population % of people with bennies live in areas where there is a real good chance you can be disabled from actual work. And that isnt the case from your map nationwide. Seattle?? really? The SW blob in PA is Fayettenam generational welfare leeches.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    I was kind of thinking VA was coal miners too. What has me puzzled is Main. I've not been there, maybe farming, logging, and fishing?:uhm:
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,330 Senior Member
    early wrote: »
    I was kind of thinking VA was coal miners too. What has me puzzled is Main. I've not been there, maybe farming, logging, and fishing?:uhm:
    Kind of like northern Michigan-- rural depressed economy. Seasonal work, no real industry to think of-- maybe logging and a bit of farming.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,330 Senior Member
    Hardly unaware. When the pay is equal to or greater than the competitors, and the bet you can get is someone who will only work past payday 1, it is not cost effective to pay more.
    Employee retention isn't a new concept. It always has been a management problem, not an employee problem.
    If it was me doing the hiring, I would be the payee. That puts me in the ultimate position to determine what people who work for me get paid.
    That is very true, but you seem to be ignoring my fundamental argument:

    Employment is a simple agreement between the employer and employee. The employer agrees to compensate the employee with money and benefits in exchange for them showing up to perform work. The employer has the right to terminate that relationship. The employee does too. While you are more than welcome to set the amount that you are willing to pay for labor, the laborers are under no obligation to accept it.

    The "going rate" doesn't mean a damn thing when you can't hire and retain competent help. I have had clients offer me work saying, "This is what we pay." While that is fine and dandy, my reply was, "If you want me to do the work, this is what it is going to cost..."

    If you go to the store, the shop keeper has every right to set their prices but you are under no obligation to buy what he is selling-- even if that is the going rate. You are welcome to negotiate a lower price, you may get him to toss in some perks, or you may decide that you don't really need what he is selling (at that price). The labor market is the same way.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,549 Senior Member
    I'm not missing the point. X work has X value. If 90% of the contractors build kitchens at X/sq ft, and you are priced at 2X/sq ft, you will get high end jobs as long as the work is available. There is exactly zero argument here. I grew up in a home based blacktop biz and we paid better than most with good bennies and not as much as the big boys. We were not the cheapest, but we did good work. That matters. Running a entry level rake is not at all the same thing. I can look at your work and say "I like what he can do" I cannot look at a kid off the street and know what I am going to get from him. Thats why he gets to start at the low end.
    If one holds out for a 20hr Manual Earth Transport job, he should starve. If I was broke I would jump on whatever I could get. The best place to go when you are broke is to work, doesnt matter what the pay is, you have to do something to learn anything. Been there, Done that. I have been unemployed for about a week total. Underemployed a lot more than that. If you are leeching off the system, then you dont have a moral high ground to negotiate a better wage until you prove yourself.

    Also, your theory about paying people more and they will drop the pipe isnt true. My company hires techs at a starting wage that is at or over the national avg for a family. It prefers a 2Y cert or asso, but does not require it. From starting, a person will be on a progression after a 6mo trial period, in less than 5 years getting progression raises every 6 mo and the COL yearly, they will reach top pay. They dont hire many, but when they do it is a long process convoluted by the fact the applicants look good but cant pass the wizz quiz and they avg about 3 getting into the hiring system to get one that can.
    No we arent talking Trump money here, but I raised a family with the wife at home, 2.5 decent kids (they trade the -.5 around) and will retire early from this job able to eat the name brand dog food instead of the store brand.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,641 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Thanks for that math lesson. Makes me want to work harder. Not. That food stamp allowance would be real close to what I spend for a family of four. And in reality, a VERY realistic if not abundant amount if one spent those dollars wisely.
    I all to frequently see little piglets buying armloads of expensive junk food with mommy's EBT card. That is the opposite of spending wisely and unfortunately seems to be a trend of those who receive free money.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,549 Senior Member
    Purina People chow. 100% recommended daily nutritional needs. EBT problem solved.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,641 Senior Member
    Purina People chow. 100% recommended daily nutritional needs. EBT problem solved.
    Soylent Green!
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,706 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    I saw that (many times, really) once at a local gas station. Handful of kids buying crap. One made the statement when they got their receipt "we still have 900 and some dollars left!"
    Had it been an adult, it would have been an incident.


    I think most all of us see examples of that except Alpha, who will be along shortly claiming that it's an isolated case along with some unrelated charts and graphs.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,330 Senior Member
    X work has X value.
    Value is always relative. You and I will go to the faucet to get a drink of water. Some only drink it from bottles they buy at the grocery store for 25 cents each. Others pay $1 at the convenience store. $20 a bottle in the middle of a desert may be reasonable.
    If one holds out for a 20hr Manual Earth Transport job, he should starve. If I was broke I would jump on whatever I could get. The best place to go when you are broke is to work, doesn't matter what the pay is, you have to do something to learn anything. Been there, Done that. I have been unemployed for about a week total. Underemployed a lot more than that. If you are leeching off the system, then you don't have a moral high ground to negotiate a better wage until you prove yourself.
    I agree with you totally. I have been there and done that myself. But agreeing with you does not solve staffing problems. Your options are to either deal with the bottom of the barrel, give incentives to hire people in that industry to quit working for your competitor and start working for you, or make it worth it to people in other industries to come work for you.
    Also, your theory about paying people more and they will drop the pipe isnt true. My company hires techs at a starting wage that is at or over the national avg for a family. It prefers a 2Y cert or asso, but does not require it. From starting, a person will be on a progression after a 6mo trial period, in less than 5 years getting progression raises every 6 mo and the COL yearly, they will reach top pay. They don't hire many, but when they do it is a long process convoluted by the fact the applicants look good but cant pass the wizz quiz and they avg about 3 getting into the hiring system to get one that can.
    That only means that 2 out of 3 people like weed more than the money your company is paying. While that statement doesn't make much sense to you and me, it is the truth. Just about everyone has their price and apparently that isn't enough for some people.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,772 Senior Member
    Ask and you shall recieve

    Yes a significant chunk of the total population, almost 50% do not earn income from work.

    Screenshot-2017-10-24%20Who%20Was%20Poor%20In%202016%20And%20Why%20Our%20System%20Keeps%20Failing%20Them_zpszjectcre.png

    The problem is almost all of them are children, retired, or disabled (84%). The groups who could possible work are:

    -students (5.8%), but they are working, they're just working on learning so they can be well equipped to earn more later
    -careers (7.9%), basically people who care for children (stay at home parents) and elderly or disabled family members. They are also basically employed full time, they just don't get paid for it.

    Neither of these groups is likely to be enticed away from their current path into the job market and even if they were that's not necessarily a socially beneficial thing.

    That leaves 2.2% in the unemployed and other category. Basically a little over 1% of the total population on net is currently functionally available for work but not working over any sort of longer term period. Note that the unemployed number is less than the unemployment rate because it takes into account people who have been unemployed all year. The vast majority of unemployed are temporarily unemployed and relatively quickly find other work. The other category seems to include people like drug dealers who earn money outside of the legal economy, but also people like trophy wives and the independently wealthy.

    Screenshot-2017-10-24%20Who%20Was%20Poor%20In%202016%20And%20Why%20Our%20System%20Keeps%20Failing%20Them1_zpspouj8yvd.png
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,330 Senior Member
    Ask and you shall receive.
    That is interesting. 24% of the population is under 18 and makes up 46% of the non-earning population. What does this tell us?
    cb15-97_graphic.jpg
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,706 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    That is interesting. 24% of the population is under 18 and makes up 46% of the non-earning population. What does this tell us?
    cb15-97_graphic.jpg


    That 76% of the population does 54% of the work.:jester:
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,706 Senior Member
    Looks like lots of folks get housing assistance which is usually the biggest monthly bill that most folks have. Seems quite a few folks get much more than just cash too. I didn't realize there were so many middle aged white people hiding out in the sticks.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,330 Senior Member
    What I got from my chart is there there are 2 large groups-- the acute that are using assistance temporarily for a hand up, and the chronic which is on the dole long term. I am sure that includes the disabled as well as the career moochers.

    I am not even sure what point any of us is trying to make anymore. I think Alpha is trying to say that most of those getting cash from the government are getting disability of some sort. I am countering that while not cash, these other non-cash benefits may as well be cash because everyone else needs to spend cash for their healthcare, food, and housing. I think Varmintmist is saying that these non-cash benefits are a disincentive for people to find and retain employment beyond the bare minimum needed to check the employed or underemployed box in the government benefit form that ensures their benefits. Chris is just an .
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,180 Senior Member
    So you're saying is that maybe a large chunk of the people on disability are actually legitimately disabled and not just leaches abusing the system?

    You like charts and graphs, so here's three links with lots of that and breakdown of injuries/deaths from farming related activities. And it shows the death rates for other high risk jobs in comparison. Mining, construction, and farming lead the pack. And since you are very unlikely to be used by a cow as a battering ram to exit the side of a barn stall, I suspect you are slightly clueless as to how easy it is to get hurt on a farm. That has happened to me, as well as being stomped or kicked by horses and cattle. And most of the machinery used on the farm is not friendly to appendages such as arms, legs, and heads, and sometimes whole bodies.

    https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/aginjury/default.html

    http://agsafety.tamu.edu/files/2011/06/US-AGRICULTURE-FATALITY-STATISTICS1.pdf

    http://nasdonline.org/1241/d001045/a-review-of-farm-accident-data-sources-and.html

    Are there people that abuse the disability system? You can bet the farm you don't own on that! And the Federal Government is lax in catching the scofflaws and even more lax in punishing the ones they do catch.

    Is there EBT card fraud? Right again. Here's a story of a recent bust of one such gang of thieves in FL. There are many more if you bother to look. $13 million ain't chump change by any stretch of the imagination.

    http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article77078947.html
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,549 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    I agree with you totally. I have been there and done that myself. But agreeing with you does not solve staffing problems. Your options are to either deal with the bottom of the barrel, give incentives to hire people in that industry to quit working for your competitor and start working for you, or make it worth it to people in other industries to come work for you.
    We agree on getting the work, we disagree on how to motivate people at entry level. And on low level employee retention. There are a lot of decent, not CEO jobs that get filled until the day after payday. Not bad jobs, ones that pay enough to get by as a start. Retention USED to be all about management, until the hammock was built and you can fall out of work whenever you want to and be taken care of.
    I think Varmintmist is saying that these non-cash benefits are a disincentive for people to find and retain employment beyond the bare minimum needed to check the employed or underemployed box in the government benefit form that ensures their benefits.
    :whip2: If they cant be motivated, then they have stepped out of the realm of needing into the world of taking. Purina people chow would be a great way to find out who needs, and who wants. Those that need will take it and exist, those that dont will get off the program and solve any employment crisis or die solving the welfare epidemic. Win Win
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,772 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    That is interesting. 24% of the population is under 18 and makes up 46% of the non-earning population. What does this tell us?
    cb15-97_graphic.jpg
    Your chart only tells the breakdown of how long individuals/families who participate in government programs stay in them. It's useless without the order of magnitude. All the percentages add up to 100%. Basically what it tells us is most people that are poor stay poor for a long time.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,772 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    What I got from my chart is there there are 2 large groups-- the acute that are using assistance temporarily for a hand up, and the chronic which is on the dole long term. I am sure that includes the disabled as well as the career moochers.

    I am not even sure what point any of us is trying to make anymore. I think Alpha is trying to say that most of those getting cash from the government are getting disability of some sort. I am countering that while not cash, these other non-cash benefits may as well be cash because everyone else needs to spend cash for their healthcare, food, and housing. I think Varmintmist is saying that these non-cash benefits are a disincentive for people to find and retain employment beyond the bare minimum needed to check the employed or underemployed box in the government benefit form that ensures their benefits. Chris is just an .
    My point is that almost all able bodied working age people in this country work for a living. They have jobs. Yes some of them are still poor enough to collect government benefits even though they work. That gets into much bigger issues that we can talk about in another thread. But the idea that there is a large (say more than 1-2%) of the population that are able bodied people, not engaged in other full time activity (school or caring for family members) getting by only on public assistance is wrong.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,641 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    You like charts and graphs, so here's three links with lots of that and breakdown of injuries/deaths from farming related activities. And it shows the death rates for other high risk jobs in comparison. Mining, construction, and farming lead the pack. And since you are very unlikely to be used by a cow as a battering ram to exit the side of a barn stall, I suspect you are slightly clueless as to how easy it is to get hurt on a farm. That has happened to me, as well as being stomped or kicked by horses and cattle. And most of the machinery used on the farm is not friendly to appendages such as arms, legs, and heads, and sometimes whole bodies.

    https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/aginjury/default.html

    http://agsafety.tamu.edu/files/2011/06/US-AGRICULTURE-FATALITY-STATISTICS1.pdf

    http://nasdonline.org/1241/d001045/a-review-of-farm-accident-data-sources-and.html

    Are there people that abuse the disability system? You can bet the farm you don't own on that! And the Federal Government is lax in catching the scofflaws and even more lax in punishing the ones they do catch.

    Is there EBT card fraud? Right again. Here's a story of a recent bust of one such gang of thieves in FL. There are many more if you bother to look. $13 million ain't chump change by any stretch of the imagination.

    http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article77078947.html
    “These retailers are flagrantly abusing the public trust by stealing millions of dollars from the federal food stamp program that is intended to provide low-income households with their needed basic provisions of food and nutrition,” Ferrer said. Such as empty calorie junk food?
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,180 Senior Member
    sgtrock21 wrote: »
    “These retailers are flagrantly abusing the public trust by stealing millions of dollars from the federal food stamp program that is intended to provide low-income households with their needed basic provisions of food and nutrition,” Ferrer said. Such as empty calorie junk food?

    Learning to eat good food and how to prepare it is learned at home, or not. If kids are brought up on junk food, they will continue to eat it as adults. And a lot of parents using the EBT system will just buy their kids the junk food to make them shut their cake holes instead of cooking good food and telling them to eat it or go without, like it used to be. If you look at what poor people eat in the U.S. then you have your reason for so many being obese, along with nil physical activity.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,706 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    If you look at what poor people eat in the U.S. then you have your reason for so many being obese, along with nil physical activity.

    I had a cousin from former East Germany come to visit and stay with us a few years ago to refine her English speaking skills and a question she asked me kinda sticks in my head. I was showing her around and we went grocery shopping and she noticed the abundance of fat people and asked "How can poor people here afford to be so fat?" Where she was from, being overweight was a sign of wealth where here it usually signifies the opposite.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,180 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    I had a cousin from former East Germany come to visit and stay with us a few years ago to refine her English speaking skills and a question she asked me kinda sticks in my head. I was showing her around and we went grocery shopping and she noticed the abundance of fat people and asked "How can poor people here afford to be so fat?" Where she was from, being overweight was a sign of wealth where here it usually signifies the opposite.

    Sugar used to be a luxury in Europe before the Caribbean plantations started growing sugar cane and importing shiploads of it home. People got fatter, and lost their teeth to tooth decay in the process. Sugar was still a luxury to the poorer classes, so they fared better. And the poorer classes didn't get to eat all they wanted of what they could get; couldn't afford that, either. So your cousin was more accurate in her description than she knew, regarding Europe, and I can see her puzzlement when seeing that here in the poorer classes.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,909 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    The solution to a labor shortage in the building trades is convict labor. Have the trade unions set up facilities in prisons whereby convicts can learn a marketable skill - even a Journeyman's Card if they're good enough, and farm them out to builders. They would be chipped or wear ankle bracelets to keep track of them. No salary mind you- after all they're prisoners, not people - just give them days off their sentence for the days they work, something like for every 40 hour week they put in, they get 1-7 days off their sentence depending on how good a job they do and the value of their particular skill. The system could be structured to provide substantial motivations for good attitudes, behaviors, and productivity. Any convict who abuses the work-release privileges by misbehaving, slacking, or attempting escape would spend the rest of his sentence in solitary.

    A program like this would make homes much more affordable for buyers, and convicts being released would already have connections with builders to get lucrative work once they're out. Recidivism rates among participants would plummet. When there's a surplus of trained, skilled construction workers, the program could be stopped until demand for more skilled labor increased, then restarted.

    OMG Horse, we can't do that? Require them to work? That reminds me of when Roosevelt admin. established the beginnings of wellfare as a means to help those who were starving during the Great Depression. They demanded people work for their government money. Then later the VOTE SUCKING Dummycraps said we can't require people to work for their government subsistence check. That is inhuman, but it's ok to take tax money from hard working Americans to let them sit on their asses and collect a monthly check! What the hell's wrong with this picture???
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,641 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Learning to eat good food and how to prepare it is learned at home, or not. If kids are brought up on junk food, they will continue to eat it as adults. And a lot of parents using the EBT system will just buy their kids the junk food to make them shut their cake holes instead of cooking good food and telling them to eat it or go without, like it used to be. If you look at what poor people eat in the U.S. then you have your reason for so many being obese, along with nil physical activity.
    The kids food pyramid would be something like sugar, artificial flavor, artificial color, and preservatives.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,330 Senior Member
    I just fired another client today. They offered me half of what I typically charge to do the exact same work. Plus they take an additional 9% out of my checks for what they call "insurance" (I am fully insured). I am sure they are going to complain about the "shortage" of qualified contractors in Detroit.
  • Six-GunSix-Gun Senior Member Posts: 7,379 Senior Member
    Linefinder wrote: »
    You can go to work selling cell phones for $12 an hour, or you can apprentice as a sheet metal worker or plumber for over $20 an hour. After 4 years apprenticeship you're making $40 an hour, with no student debt. In fact, you've been well paid during your education period.

    But, since a collage degree has been the end all for a couple generations, we have a couple generations who sell burgers and insurance to each other.

    Mike

    I have been preaching what you said here about the devaluation of the college degree vs. trade work, almost verbatim, for years. The more we see people going through the traditionally prescribed motion of getting a bachelor’s degree and incurring a ton of college debt, the worse this issue will become.

    cpj wrote: »
    I know plumbers and tinners that would LOVE to make $40 an hour. $23-ish area is about average around here.

    Hell for $40 an hour I'd become a plumber or tinner!
    That’s surprising to hear. Hell, the plumbing company that my wife works for here in the Omaha area pays *journeyman* plumbers $33/hour + benefits. Master plumbers do considerably better.
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,180 Senior Member
    Six-Gun wrote: »
    I have been preaching what you said here about the devaluation of the college degree vs. trade work, almost verbatim, for years. The more we see people going through the traditionally prescribed motion of getting a bachelor’s degree and incurring a ton of college debt, the worse this issue will become.



    That’s surprising to hear. Hell, the plumbing company that my wife works for here in the Omaha area pays *journeyman* plumbers $33/hour + benefits. Master plumbers do considerably better.

    Regarding what trades make, it has a lot to do with region and cost of living in those areas. And union/non union, right to work states, and a few other factors. Like I said, U.S. isn't all over plain vanilla as to cost of living, and wages reflect that difference, by region.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,595 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Regarding what trades make, it has a lot to do with region and cost of living in those areas. And union/non union, right to work states, and a few other factors. Like I said, U.S. isn't all over plain vanilla as to cost of living, and wages reflect that difference, by region.
    Cost of living is the same here, and skilled wahes are <20-30%

    Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,706 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    Cost of living is the same here, and skilled wahes are <20-30%

    Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk

    What you'll learn about the entire panhandle is that with all of the bases between Panama City and Pensacola offering various services and facilities, along with no state income tax, inexpensive housing, and low sales tax , this is a great place for military retiree's to move to. Most retiree's want to supplement their income and don't need a living wage and employers around here take advantage of that fact.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
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