No more military retirement..............

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Replies

  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,379 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    Since you think it's such a great deal and a huge burden on the government, I'm shocked that there aren't more millennials like yourself lined up to enlist and take advantage of such a great deal. On top of the great retirement, they'll even pay all of your tuition to go to school and you get 30 days of vacation a year on the very first year! I just don't get why the general public isn't falling all over themselves to take advantage of such an awesome life with such great benefits. Maybe there's a little more to the job than you can learn on the internet.
    And I repeat myself.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 8,823 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    I didn't because they wouldn't take me. I tried like hell to get in. Little did I know that being born with a heart murmur made me morally inferior of the self righteous. It must have been nice being born that way.

    You attempted, even more important i have never read a post where you ridicule or hold our Military in contempt for what they do or for their rewards for service.
    Mighty big difference
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,612 Senior Member
    Diver43 wrote: »
    You attempted, even more important i have never read a post where you ridicule or hold our Military in contempt for what they do or for their rewards for service.
    Mighty big difference

    I have never felt Alpha has contempt for the armed services. Naivety of the job? Absolutely.

    I was 19 years old, E-4 barely pulling down $200 a week and had my John Hancock on papers making me fully responsible for $250,000 of equipment.

    centermass556 has pulled what? 7 -8 tours?? That should be = to any other civil service retirement in his mind.......
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I hold no ill feeling against those who tried and were turned down from serving or those who just chose not to. Military life ain't for everyone, anyway.

    Service-members have little say on their pay and benefits except their vote in a roundabout way for pro military politicians maybe and those high ranking officers that appear before congress and brief them on Readiness and how pay may be effecting retention and the budget battles. Color of Money and what is allocated to who and for what like personnel and R&R/ equipment programs.

    There has to be some carrot and stick approach for the military to keep qualified folks in just like in the civilian world uses to attract and retain employees.

    And just like the civilian world when they get flush/too many in a particular skill they cut back and on the flip side they offer incentives to keep and attract needed personnel where shortages are/projected.

    Again they got you by the short hairs once you raise your right arm and sign the dotted line. In a sense you are a 'GI, Government Issue' and the needs of the service come before yours. Sometimes the stars align and sometimes not (usually) to get what satisfies both.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,845 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    You guys are too hard on Alf. Liberals do not understand the concept of 'service.'

    Ok I'll go here. It's not service that I and other liberals have an issue with. In my case specifically it's an allergy to blind allegence and obedience to authority. I'm not great at taking orders and I'm REALLY bad at doing so without question. For whatever reason things like military service and organized religion which require blind obedience tend to come easier to conservatives than liberals in general.

    I have plenty of respect for those that serve and the sacrifices that they make. That said I do feel like they are more than fairly compensated. And yes had I been born with less opportunity, I would have strongly considered sucking it up and at least taking advantage of the ROTC program to get my education paid for.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,379 Senior Member
    Diver43 wrote: »
    You attempted, even more important i have never read a post where you ridicule or hold our Military in contempt for what they do or for their rewards for service.
    Mighty big difference
    I am not singling you out, but I get the general vibe there is some contempt toward those that haven't served. The fact of the matter is that by the Pentagon's own estimate, only 25% of potential recruits are fit for service.

    I appreciate everyone's service and all of the many sacrifices that they have made, but I shouldn't be made to feel like a 2nd class citizen because of it. We are all Americans, and like it or not, in this together.
  • Six-GunSix-Gun Senior Member Posts: 7,430 Senior Member
    It's not quite that simple. If you do your full 20, there is still a (I think) 40% of base pay pension that comes with it as well. There's also bonuses for committing for a career at certain gates, 12 years comes to mind. Truth be told, if this had been offered when I first joined, and I'd known what I know now about investing, I would have been all over it. I love the idea of being able to walk away at any time and at least having what Uncle Sam matched into my TSP. It has the potential to serve the SMs that manage their contributions well, very very well.

    Honestly, I think they are banking on SMs not understanding investing in retirement just not contributing and then getting out after a single tour. If EVERY troop put 5% of their base pay into a TSP and Uncle Sam had to match it, I think more would be spent on retirement than they are currently.

    ^^This.

    The blended retirement system doesn’t make sense for a guy like me with 4 years left to traditional retirement eligibility (and I am not elgible, even if I wanted to due to seniority), but young guy looking at life one term at a time has a different perspective.

    With the government matching up to 5% for a 6% member contribution, you could make a great retirement investment and still get a 40% base pay retirement if you stay heough 20 years. For the guys that punch after one or two terms, they won’t get the 40% base pay piece, but they will still have total portability for their contribution portion and all marched funds. They can move to the civil sector with a big leg up for personal retirement.

    The catch is that you can’t touch the contribution money until you hit federal retirement age, whereas I start getting my 50% base pay retirement as soon as I retire militarily. Then I can start a second career and make full time employment income while getting my retired pay. I can also continue to contribute to my traditonal Thrift Savings Plan (aka 401k) account and Roth IRA as I have been doing anyway, and tap those funds (plus a potential second pension/retirement from my post-military job) when I hit federal retirement age.

    Folks serving now who fall in the blended retirem ent eligibility window have to make the call to either stay with the traditonal retirement or go with the blended system by 2018. If I were young enough, I would go blended all the way. You can effectively double your investment on that first 6%, and that could be huge long term.
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »

    I appreciate everyone's service and all of the many sacrifices that they have made, but I shouldn't be made to feel like a 2nd class citizen because of it. We are all Americans, and like it or not, in this together.

    Cheer up Jerm, I by the power vested in me, hereby promote you what they used to call a PFC right before they got out A PROUD er....FRIGGIN CIVILIAN

    Congrats :tooth: :usa: :usa:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,585 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    I am not singling you out, but I get the general vibe there is some contempt toward those that haven't served. The fact of the matter is that by the Pentagon's own estimate, only 25% of potential recruits are fit for service.

    I appreciate everyone's service and all of the many sacrifices that they have made, but I shouldn't be made to feel like a 2nd class citizen because of it. We are all Americans, and like it or not, in this together.

    There is only contempt towards those who didnt serve and then dictate how much like a civilian job it is without any clue or ever having the notion to become property of the U.S. Govt for a period of time. It would be like me telling you how to install a kitchen and that you are wrong and getting paid to much for the work because I have seen someone sweat a pipe on TV and they made it look easy. Except people wont die and you will never go in front of a magistrate if you misplace a screw or leave a nut in the bottom of the cabinet. Nor would a error on your installation cause escalating problems putting more people at risk that are not even related to kitchen work or carpentry. It is not the same world and those that havent, really cant understand it. Its just how it is, not BS like buying a Harley or Jeep and saying someone cant understand, it is a different mindset and responsibility level. At 19, my thumb up or down said a multi million dollar ac was in good enough condition to do the job and keep 4 people alive (directly). 100% my call. I could not be outranked, or undercut by anyone not in my shop and chain of command no matter what their status. Same as a landscaping job right, no real pressure?

    25% are fit for service because of "everyone gets a trophy" and Xbox life. You have to be able to think on your own, and do.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,585 Senior Member
    Ok I'll go here. It's not service that I and other liberals have an issue with. In my case specifically it's an allergy to blind allegence and obedience to authority. I'm not great at taking orders and I'm REALLY bad at doing so without question. For whatever reason things like military service and organized religion which require blind obedience tend to come easier to conservatives than liberals in general.
    Which again shows nothing but ignorance.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Blind obedience was best characterized in a WWI flick I saw when an airship was damaged and losing altitude..........the captain told his crew to throw everything overboard they could to lesson the weight, it wasn't enough so they lined up clicked their heels and said 'For The Kaiser' and jumped out..............

    US military doesn't work like that or expect anyone to do that (die senselessly), but if they choose to do something Above and Beyond the call of duty it is their choice. Many do to save fellow service members and win the fight. They are held in high esteem and honored for their heroic actions and given awards for their bravery. The highest being the Medal Of Honor which is more often than not awarded posthumously.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,733 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    And I repeat myself.

    I wasn't directing my post at you or anyone in general that didn't serve but rather the people that minimalize the sacrifices and commitment that a retiree has made for twenty years or more. When that individual has no experience with military life, it becomes even more offensive. Not having served is no big deal but not having served and then stating that retiree's are a burden on the economy and not deserving of a government retirement is more than myself and other veterans can stand to hear. Most folks that enlist have the opportunity to keep reenlisting until retirement providing that they meet certain performance standards and yet most folks elect not to.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,999 Senior Member
    :popcorn:
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    As we speak a ceremony is being held to award a combat medic the MOH in the white house for his actions in Laos where they weren't officially supposed to have been. FINALLY got the recognition he deserves. :usa: :usa: :angel2: :angel2:

    Go watch or read about his heroic actions treating and getting wounded soldiers to safety even though he was wounded himself. If this doesn't help you understand devotion to Duty/Honor/Country................nothing will.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/23/army-capt-gary-rose-risked-his-life-to-save-others-in-vietnam-war-to-get-medal-honor.html
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,220 Senior Member
    I think this film clip is appropriate.

    And the fine accommodations aboard ship. Anywhere from 60-300 of those stacked racks per berthing compartment depending on ship and division size. Tell me again how this 'free room and board' is the greatest thing since sliced bread. And if you don't like what's on the menu, then tough noogies. Unless you can walk on water, you ain't going to Mickey D's for a burger and fries. I left out a picture of the marvelous heads aboard ship (bathrooms). Some things are best left unseen. :roll2:



    Notice the view inside your space in this luxurious sleeping berth. Notice the huge king size mattress and the vaulted canopy overhead. The stuff dreams are made of, says I. And the comfort is beyond belief! :tooth:



    I get really tired of people that have never served making believe that the food, accommodations, and the extremely generous pay (I made $333/month BEFORE TAXES back in the 70s doing that fun stuff) are somehow the equivalent of a civilian job. I don't know of any civilian jobs, other than LE, that offers getting shot at as a job perk. Or sleeping in a hole in the ground out on patrols. Ever been 60+ days out at sea without sighting land, and without beer, rum, whiskey, vodka, and fast food? And every day a workday and no days off while you're there?? Or a duty station where your wife and kids can't be because it's a remote hellhole, or a deepfreeze, like Adak, Alaska, or a war zone? Those that do their 20 or more years and retire deserve a lot more than what they get back.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • JKPJKP Senior Member Posts: 1,853 Senior Member
    I think it would be advantageous to service members who expend the effort to really understand how they invest. Troublesome for those not well informed.
  • gatorgator Senior Member Posts: 1,714 Senior Member
    In my opinion there is no such thing as blind obedience, only obedience. In life or death situations you do not question, you just do your job or people die.


    Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk
    USMC 80-84
    -96 lbs
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,220 Senior Member
    gator wrote: »
    In my opinion there is no such thing as blind obedience, only obedience. In life or death situations you do not question, you just do your job or people die.


    Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

    :agree:

    Never saw any of that blind obedience thing. An order is either lawful and proper and must be obeyed, or it's an unlawful order that does not have to be obeyed, and the unlawful orders are few and far between.

    And enlisted working on aircraft and other complex systems are responsible for it, and if they say it isn't safe to operate, then no officer can override that decision. My ship missed planned deployment for three weeks while the reefer refrigeration compressor was replaced. An E-5 said it was failing and refused sign off on it. And it was not something that could be replaced while underway. Captain pitched a hissy conniption fit, but couldn't do anything to override the decision of the E-5. We had to unload everything in the reefer so the compressor could be replaced without all that stuff thawing out, and reload it when the compressor was replaced and running to specs.

    When you get right down to it, civilian job holders take orders on a daily basis. They either do the work they are told to do, or they will likely find themselves unemployed. Unemployed for that refusal to do their job is superior position to getting an Article 15 for refusing to obey a lawful order. Only real difference between the two is the amount of yelling, and the consequences for not doing what you're told when you're told. Unless you're independently wealthy and work for a living, then you are taking orders from someone. That "I can't take orders" is a weaker than water excuse.

    As to those that haven't served, I know of quite a few that couldn't pass the physical for various reasons. They WANTED to join and serve, but due to their particular health/physical problems they were denied the chance. I hold no ill will towards them. They stepped up and were willing to volunteer for service, but were denied the chance. Not their fault, and they deserve a lot of respect for trying, and anyone saying different is wrong.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,612 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    :agree:

    Never saw any of that blind obedience thing. An order is either lawful and proper and must be obeyed, or it's an unlawful order that does not have to be obeyed, and the unlawful orders are few and far between.

    And enlisted working on aircraft and other complex systems are responsible for it, and if they say it isn't safe to operate, then no officer can override that decision. My ship missed planned deployment for three weeks while the reefer refrigeration compressor was replaced. An E-5 said it was failing and refused sign off on it. And it was not something that could be replaced while underway. Captain pitched a hissy conniption fit, but couldn't do anything to override the decision of the E-5. We had to unload everything in the reefer so the compressor could be replaced without all that stuff thawing out, and reload it when the compressor was replaced and running to specs.

    When you get right down to it, civilian job holders take orders on a daily basis. They either do the work they are told to do, or they will likely find themselves unemployed. Unemployed for that refusal to do their job is superior position to getting an Article 15 for refusing to obey a lawful order. Only real difference between the two is the amount of yelling, and the consequences for not doing what you're told when you're told. Unless you're independently wealthy and work for a living, then you are taking orders from someone. That "I can't take orders" is a weaker than water excuse.

    As to those that haven't served, I know of quite a few that couldn't pass the physical for various reasons. They WANTED to join and serve, but due to their particular health/physical problems they were denied the chance. I hold no ill will towards them. They stepped up and were willing to volunteer for service, but were denied the chance. Not their fault, and they deserve a lot of respect for trying, and anyone saying different is wrong.

    The big difference is that a civilian gets fired. We got our pay docked by up to 50% to repay the partial cost of the equipment.

    My room mate rolled his truck (easy to do when you pull guard duty the night before driving in a 16hr convoy from Fairbanks to Anchorage). I don't remember the specifics, but he paid hundreds of dollars a month for years...................
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,999 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    The big difference is that a civilian gets fired. We got our pay docked by up to 50% to repay the partial cost of the equipment.

    My room mate rolled his truck (easy to do when you pull guard duty the night before driving in a 16hr convoy from Fairbanks to Anchorage). I don't remember the specifics, but he paid hundreds of dollars a month for years...................

    Not exactly true, we fired people all the time; we just gave it another name
    Admin Discharge
    and often one can mess up the rest of that persons life if it is other than honorable.

    Your right about people having to pay for equipment if found responsible, except for Navy property
    Navy Regs did not allow for that.
    It was a blessing because the Navy owned our aircraft.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,395 Senior Member
    Remember being stationed at K.I. Sawyer in late 77 to 80. One night on the main gate, a black bear was moving along the fence line of the Alert Parking area, eating blueberries. The captain (name of Birchwood I recall) ordered the Master Sergeant to shoot the bear. The Msgt was slow to respond, and I stepped up, (2 stripes) and said, "Sir, that's an unlawful order." He was a bit taken aback. He turned to the Msgt and told him he had his instructions.

    I picked up the phone and the Captain demanded to know what I was doing. I told him I was having the base operator connect me with the Michigan DNR. The captain took the phone from my hand and slammed it down in the cradle. He told me I was being insubordinate. I smiled and told him, "No sir, I'm preventing a crime." (I'd been a police officer for 3 years before I joined the Air Force.)

    He ordered me not to call the DNR. I told him, "Fine. When I get off tonight, and get to my apartment, I'll call them then." The MSgt finally got some guts and backed me.

    Needless to say, the bear survived. So did I.

    So much for "Blind Obedience."
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,733 Senior Member
    Remember being stationed at K.I. Sawyer in late 77 to 80.

    Not to derail but, who am I kidding, that's what we do. One of my closest friends was a buff crew chief at K.I. Sawyer from 75 to 79 and I used to go up there on leave to visit pretty regularly. That area is beautiful to me. If you drove out the back gate back then and saw all the tire burnouts all over the road, they were probably caused by me. I rebuilt the engine in my buddies 64 Chevelle and used to do my testing outside of the back gate.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • RAEIndustriesRAEIndustries Member Posts: 68 Member
    That’s going to slow the enlistments maybe? I was one of the last of the 50% at 20 guys, enlisted in 85. Shortly after the new guys were only getting 33% at 20 years
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