Moving to an Ar type

ojrojr Senior MemberPosts: 901 Senior Member
I have sold my little CZ 527 223 because I wish to move to an AR type of platform, I have zero experience with this type of Firearm.
We have silly laws over here which would just take to much time to explain so I won't, I've been looking about the W.W.W. and honestly its just confusing

I wish the rifle to be used strictly for hunting, pest and what you guys would call predator size hunting, so over here, Rabbits, Hares and Wallaby would be the main game.
It would have to be accurate, I simply don't do inaccurate, reliable, maneuverable and reasonably light scoped, so probably looking at 18" barrel tops.
Would prefer at least 1-9 twist 1-8 be better, should I get chrome lined, do I lose anything by getting a chrome lined barrel.?
I would have up to 2K USD to spend including getting it here so some thing like Daniel Defense, Lebauer etc out of reach.
Looking tops, Colt prices
What brand should I spend my money on
Thanks.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
«13

Replies

  • MileHighShooterMileHighShooter Senior Member Posts: 4,768 Senior Member
    Do you have to import a complete rifle, or could you import all the components in one lot?
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Once again, please refrain from cutting short any baseless totally emotional arguments with facts. It leads to boring, completely objective conversations well beyond the comprehension ability of many.
  • ojrojr Senior Member Posts: 901 Senior Member
    I can import components , also I can get full rifles such as some Rock River Arms, some Armalite, and some Neac { Canadian I think if I have that right}, also bushmaster that are sold here.
    For me a built rifle would be easier as I know nothing about them apart from what I have read.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,888 Senior Member
    My opinion, is you do not want a barrel with an A2 sight on the gas block, and should go for a flat top receiver and a floating hand guard that has a top with a built in picatinny rail, and smooth M-Lok sides. A 16 inch barrel is standard, and 18 or 20 is "marksman" and "varmint" but you can get MOA or better performance from a 16 inch barrel. I like a forward assist on my upper receiver. Sight preferences vary, but for many people a P.E.P.R. cantilever mount is preferred for a scope . Magnification will depend on distance. Barrel twist rates vary, with 1:7 being best for heavier and longer distance, 1:8 being a compromise between heavy and medium. and 1:9 good for some heavy, but best for medium weights ( 69 gr ). Most rifles shoot 55 to 62 gr unless they are target shooting past 100 yards, or varmint shooting in the wind.

    Getting MOA performance is about normal, but some guns won't do it. There are a lot of variables, but it comes down to tight components. People love Rock River, some people like DPMS. The Ruger AR-556 has an MSRP of $899 here and is a very good config and a complete gun, except for optics. http://www.ruger.com/products/ar556MPR/models.html Smith and Wesson make a respected rifle as well, retail $749.00 https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-15-sport-ii-optics-ready-m-lok-handguard

    Right now this Rock River is just $875 retail and has all the parts nad they claim 3/4 MOA performance. . https://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=838&CFID=628545420&CFTOKEN=94279572

    athca_lts.gif



    Building one is not hard, but getting all the parts and tools makes it a challenge I would imagine from 10,000 miles away. I would start with a complete gun, and learn from it, then maybe try changing a barrel or buying an upper.

    IMHO

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,395 Senior Member
    Owen, the accuracy will surprise you. My 20" bull barrel is simply remarkable with cheap mil spec ball.
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 19,434 Senior Member
    My thoughts for a neophite AR purchaser:

    *I am not a fan of chrome lined barrels for accuracy.

    *I wouldn't go any heavier than a "H-bar" contour

    *8 or 9 twist will handle pretty much any bullet you want to shoot (I shoot up to 75/77gr and haven't had any signs of bullet instability from my 1:9s compared to my 1.8s)

    *Even my light contour 18" barrel will deliver 1.5MOA with good ammo, if I'm up to it. It won't do it for multiple groups without allowing it to cool between groups, but then, that particular upper wasn't built for extended accuracy sessions.

    *I find it easier to shoot better groups with triggers well above the standard "Mil-spec"

    *You might want an adjustable gas block if you're going to be running a moderator/suppressor on it. They increase back pressure in the gas system. (once I get my "mother may I" stamp back, I plan on replacing the gas blocks on the 2 rifles I'll be using it on the most)
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • JKPJKP Senior Member Posts: 1,901 Senior Member
    For what you described the Windham Weaponry Varmint Exterminator would be ideal.

    I have the upper and it shoots half inch 100 yard groups.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,781 Senior Member
    ojr,

    I got involved with AR's with almost identical feelings and thoughts as you have expressed. I have four, now, of which two are 20" hunting rifles in .223. I had no idea that the AR-15 design was so inherently accurate.

    My first consisted of a purchase of a RRA complete lower, and a DPMS 20" 1:8 heavy barrel complete upper. I simply snapped it together with two pins and started shooting it. My hand loads with plain old Varget powder and Hornady 68 grain match bullets will put 6-7 rounds out of every 10 inside of a half-inch, at one hundred yards. This is with a Harris bipod and a Caldwell rear bag - far from top-notch equipment. My AR-10 clone is a Remington R-25 in 7mm-08, which is nothing more than DPMS LR-308 with a camo paint job and the Remington name stamped on it. It shot 0.75 MOA groups consistently with 139 gr. Hornady hollow points over a book maximum load of Varget. When I replaced the stock trigger with a RRA National Match trigger, I began to shoot frequent 0.50 groups.

    In my opinion, the RRA that BigDanS posted would be perfect for your pursuits. You could save a little money by a DIY build with bargain prices on parts, but in your situation, you might be better off to buy a complete rifle - just make sure it has an RRA NM trigger, or better. Trigger kits, and almost everything else, are easy installs on the AR platform. There are plenty of YouTube videos on how to do about anything to an AR-15. Get something with the 1:8 barrel, and shoot 62 -75 grain ammo.

    The beauty of the AR platform is that once you get your hands on it, you will soon discover that it is like a lego toy that you can disassemble/reassemble at will.
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    For what you described I’d make sure I got a good barrel and trigger group because for me that is those are big in the accuracy factor. Barrel, you are not going to fire massive amounts in a short time, use corrosive ammo or not clean it regularly so chrome lining is definitely not needed. I think the 1:8 twist is pretty versatile being able to run the heavier rounds as well as dropping down to some of the lighter varmint ones also. Length wise since you guys are able to get suppressors so easy are you going to? My 16” carbine with a can is okay but 18” just seems to bump stuff when I am not setup in one spot. Not knowing what manufacturers you have access to and are allowed in NZ kinda limits me ... if you do have access to Rock River Arms, Stag or such check out the ones geared more to 3 gun Competition like the RRA R3, the Stag 3 Gun or such because those tend to have a better trigger and set up more toward accuracy than a standard carbine.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • PegasusPegasus Senior Member Posts: 2,667 Senior Member
    ojr wrote: »
    I can import components , also I can get full rifles such as some Rock River Arms, some Armalite, and some Neac { Canadian I think if I have that right}, also bushmaster that are sold here.
    For me a built rifle would be easier as I know nothing about them apart from what I have read.
    That would be NEAG North Eastern Arms Group, out of somewhere in Ontario, Canada.

    RRA, ArmaLite, NEAG and Bushmaster, I think you have a good mix available and it's just a matter of obtaining the features that you want. I'm partial to ArmaLite and I doubt I could find NEAG rifles in the USA, so I know nothing about them. The order of desirability for me would be ArmaLite, RRA and Bushmaster if nothing else is available. Again, I know nothing of NEAG rifles.

    Given the choices between 1:7, 1:8 and 1:9 and all else being equal, I would always go for the 1:8. The only reason 1:7 exists is for stabilizing the long M856 tracer round companion for the M855 (SS109-type bullet.) The 1:8 was developed by target shooters and competitors to carry the 80gr bullet to 1000 yard. It also doesn't overspin shorter bullets and that's a good thing. The 1:9 twist will be fine for virtually anything you would buy (except ammo topped with the 77SMK bullet,) and certainly would be just fine for your stated purposes.

    A chrome-lined bore is useful if you don't ever clean the chamber or wipe the rifle down and clean the bore after a rainstorm. It is considered by many to be a deterrence to maximum precision in a barrel. I have no experience with that, all my ARs have stainless steel barrel with 1:8 or 1:7.7 (Krieger) twists. And you don't chrome-line a stainless steel barrel.

    You might want to check the chamber used: 223Rem, 5.56NATO, 5.56Wylde or some special one. The Wylde is designed to be as cavernous as the precision-robbing 5.56NATO chamber, but with a tight leade, at the level of a .223Rem chamber but longer to accommodate the long 80gr bullets.

    Others have mentioned the trigger, and yes; I'm partial to the Geissele and have them on my ArmaLite AR-10 and my F-TR AR-15. I hear good things about many other aftermarket triggers, but I only have experience with the Geissele, since I never heard of or found anything better. They are pricey.

    Definitely get a flat top model, as has been stated, there is no need for that front sight.

    Magazines: I have no clue what is available to you in the Land of the Long White Cloud.
  • ojrojr Senior Member Posts: 901 Senior Member
    Thank you all that has been a tremendous help.
    RRA with some/most of the features described is available here for either side 2.5KNZD, feature dependent, base about 2.3k up to around 2.9 for Varminter etc Thanks a bunch
    will go looking with more knowledge about what's important now. Cheers.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
  • ojrojr Senior Member Posts: 901 Senior Member
    One last question
    Wylde chambers are available in some rifles here, my understanding is that this chamber allows the use of Nato 5.6mm ammo as opposed to 223 commercial ammo as has been stated above. I doubt we get bucket loads of surplus Nato ammo in new Zealand , however if the rifle does having this bigger chamber will that deter from the best accuracy when using commercial ammo and if using commercial brass case ammo and I wish to reload, which I will, does this bigger chamber cause increased brass expansion to the point where it is difficult or impossible to resize the brass.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 19,434 Senior Member
    It is doubtful you can find a factory AR with an actual "223" chamber, even though some are erroneously marked as such.

    My original RRA had a Wylde and the Lilja I replaced it with, once I shot out the original, does as well.

    Can't say as I've had any complaint with the accuracy from either
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 19,434 Senior Member
    Here's the important parts of the Wiki article about the Wylde Chamber
    Wylde's hybrid chamber was designed to exploit the accuracy advantages of the .223 Remington chambering without problems concerning over pressure or compromising the functional reliability of semi-auto firearms like the AR-15 family when using 5.56×45mm NATO military ammunition.[6] Coincidentally, it shoots the relatively long and heavy 80-grain (5.18 g) bullets commonly used in the Sport Rifle Competition very well and is one of the preferred chambers for that use.[7] The Wylde chamber is used by rifle manufacturers who sell "National Match" configuration AR-15 rifles, barrels, and upper receivers.[8]
    From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Wylde_chamber
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 19,434 Senior Member
    Noticed an important part I neglected to add. (see bolded part)
    knitepoet wrote: »

    *I wouldn't go any heavier than a "H-bar" contour on a rifle planned for hunting
    I love my bull barrels from a bench, but carrying one afield??? NOPE, not gonna happen unless I get wealthy enough to hire a gun bearer
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • TrueTone911TrueTone911 Senior Member Posts: 6,281 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Noticed an important part I neglected to add. (see bolded part)

    I love my bull barrels from a bench, but carrying one afield??? NOPE, not gonna happen unless I get wealthy enough to hire a gun bearer

    Remote control, and there's even a place for your beverage

    2730b.jpg
    Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace.  ~ James Madison
  • ojrojr Senior Member Posts: 901 Senior Member
    Ok Thanks, Gun bearers are quite expensive over here,
    This is what I'm looking at, seems to tick most boxes ? A little heavy as I still have to scope it, but seems to have most of the right bits?

    https://www.targetsports.co.nz/product/ATH-18.html

    Note the bit running from the pistol grip to the heel off the but, this sort of thing must be on the rifle to enable it to be bought under my normal firearms license, if it's not there it is deemed a MSSA, Military Style Semi Automatic and there are a mirad of hoops to jump through to own, not the least being beefed up security and a yearly review by the police, oh and a bayonet lug, if it has one of them it's a MSSA, if you grind it off it isn't, clever eh.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
  • PegasusPegasus Senior Member Posts: 2,667 Senior Member
    ojr wrote: »
    One last question
    Wylde chambers are available in some rifles here, my understanding is that this chamber allows the use of Nato 5.6mm ammo as opposed to 223 commercial ammo as has been stated above. I doubt we get bucket loads of surplus Nato ammo in new Zealand , however if the rifle does having this bigger chamber will that deter from the best accuracy when using commercial ammo and if using commercial brass case ammo and I wish to reload, which I will, does this bigger chamber cause increased brass expansion to the point where it is difficult or impossible to resize the brass.

    I have no idea if they would do a .223Reminton chamber for an AR meant for export or if they would use whatever standard chambering they usually do. That would be a question for the importer.

    My original FTR AR-15 was based on Wylde-chambered barrel. I was handloading the ammo, I used in competition, using Lapua brass which I had bough as virgin brass. After a few loadings of the brass, the upper was sent to Krieger to get a new barrel chambered in their match chamber, which was much closer to .223 Remington chambering. I went out to a match with that rifle and new barrel and lots of recently handloaded ammo with the Lapua brass.

    I ran into a series of FTEs with that brass. It would chamber fine and fire fine, but during ejection the brass would stay stuck in the chamber as the bolt pulled back and the extractor would jump off the rim.

    When I got home, I measured this brass and found I had problem getting resized cases even fitting in the cartridge guage.

    I bought a small base die in the same order I put in for all new virgin brass. Never had a problem after that but now I know to start with a small base die from the firct.
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 4,942 Senior Member
    SIGgal wrote: »
    Almost all AR platform rifles will do what you are looking to accomplish, even with a 16" barrel. AR15 variants are wonderful rifles because you can add so many options or configure your rifle how you want it without a lot of time or tools. They are also good to upwards of 600 yards for some. My one suggestion though would be to get one that is stamped for 5.56 because you can shoot .223 with it. 5.56 NATO ammo really should not be fired from a rifle chambered for .223 because it is a hotter round and can damage your barrel over time from what I am told.

    The AR platform also comes in so many calibers, it is hard to choose from. There is your .223/5.56 .300 blackout .458, .308 in an AR10 etc.

    I like Bushmaster, RRA, Stag Arms, Smith&Wesson M&P series rifles and Colt, but usually I can build my rifles much cheaper than buying a Colt rifle.

    This is gonna be fun.
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,682 Senior Member
    I can only speak from my experience. The Rock Rivers I have bought (3) are way more accurate than any other I have shot. My Fred Eichler RRA is equal to a friends Les Baer Varminter.....
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • TrueTone911TrueTone911 Senior Member Posts: 6,281 Senior Member
    ojr wrote: »
    Ok Thanks, Gun bearers are quite expensive over here,
    This is what I'm looking at, seems to tick most boxes ? A little heavy as I still have to scope it, but seems to have most of the right bits?

    https://www.targetsports.co.nz/product/ATH-18.html

    Note the bit running from the pistol grip to the heel off the but, this sort of thing must be on the rifle to enable it to be bought under my normal firearms license, if it's not there it is deemed a MSSA, Military Style Semi Automatic and there are a mirad of hoops to jump through to own, not the least being beefed up security and a yearly review by the police, oh and a bayonet lug, if it has one of them it's a MSSA, if you grind it off it isn't, clever eh.

    We have similar stock restrictions here in California now. From the site you referenced, that does look like the closest thing to what you are looking for.

    But what about something like this?

    https://nzar15.com/store/firearms/a-category/ar15-kits/ar15-kit-556mm-with-faxon-16-gunner-barrel
    Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace.  ~ James Madison
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,593 Senior Member
    They're all pretty accurate. Get what you want and don't second-guess your decision. Unless you're planning on shooting deer, stick with the 55 gr. bullets and standard twist rate. A Wylde chamber is slightly larger than a match chamber (or so I hear) and accuracy is excellent and probably preferable over a target chamber, which should be less tolerant of ammo.

    I don't see the affection for the quick-twist barrels, especially for pest shooting. Don't object to them, but I've got deer caliber rifles and don't shoot at long ranges which require a higher BC bullet.

    I had a Colt H-Bar with whatever chamber that comes in and it shot 1/4" with target bullets. Also had a couple of others in other brands and they shot very well indeed. I'd look for a flat top and mount a scope on it for smaller targets or critters.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • JKPJKP Senior Member Posts: 1,901 Senior Member
    Regarding the 223 Wylde that is what the WW Varmint Exterminator is chambered in. Very accurate in my experience.
  • PegasusPegasus Senior Member Posts: 2,667 Senior Member
    SIGgal wrote: »
    Almost all AR platform rifles will do what you are looking to accomplish, even with a 16" barrel. AR15 variants are wonderful rifles because you can add so many options or configure your rifle how you want it without a lot of time or tools. They are also good to upwards of 600 yards for some. My one suggestion though would be to get one that is stamped for 5.56 because you can shoot .223 with it. 5.56 NATO ammo really should not be fired from a rifle chambered for .223 because it is a hotter round and can damage your barrel over time from what I am told.

    Wow.

    I don't know where to begin, so I'll just back off and get some popcorn.
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 4,942 Senior Member
    Pegasus wrote: »
    Wow.

    I don't know where to begin, so I'll just back off and get some popcorn.

    That's kinda what I'm thinking.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • PegasusPegasus Senior Member Posts: 2,667 Senior Member
    Linefinder wrote: »
    That's kinda what I'm thinking.

    Mike
    Yep, I figured as much. The AR-konfu(sed) is strong in that one.

    So, tell me, what is your favorite popcorn topping, if any? I'm partial to movie theater butter myself.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,781 Senior Member
    Just get a .223 chamber and forget it. You didn't use 5.56 in your bolt rifles, so why use it in the replacements? I doubt that milsurp 5.56 is that available over there, anyway. If you want it for hunting and accurate target shooting, there is really no need for 5.56.

    If it has a Wylde chamber, that's a nice bonus. But if it doesn't, just shoot .223, like you always have.
  • jbohiojbohio Senior Member Posts: 5,521 Senior Member
    Ojr, Rock River builds a very nice rifle. I highly recommend them. I have a few different ARs, and none compare to a RRA, an that price point.
  • ojrojr Senior Member Posts: 901 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    Just get a .223 chamber and forget it. You didn't use 5.56 in your bolt rifles, so why use it in the replacements? I doubt that milsurp 5.56 is that available over there, anyway. If you want it for hunting and accurate target shooting, there is really no need for 5.56.

    If it has a Wylde chamber, that's a nice bonus. But if it doesn't, just shoot .223, like you always have.

    Exactly bisley.
    Thanks all.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,369 Senior Member
    Late comment..I have a RRA with a 24" mid-weight fluted barrel that I use as a coyote rifle.......one of my better shooting rigs...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
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