Thoughts on Republican "Tax Reform"

alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior MemberPosts: 8,741 Senior Member
What do you guys think about the the bills being floated by Republicans. I'm genuinely interested in what people think so I'll refrain from inserting my opinion at least for a couple days.
"Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
-DoctorWho
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Replies

  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,211 Senior Member
    At this point, I am not very sure. There are probably going to be winners and losers like there always is. One thing that I do know is that they aren't even trying to simplify it. That is disappointing.

    I do wish they would eliminate the mortgage interest deduction entirely-- I am not a fan of subsidies that encourage people to buy more house than they can afford. And I am cool with eliminating the deduction for state and local taxes too-- let the people of that state, and not the rest of the country, bear the full burden of those taxes. For example-- Kansas shouldn't have to bear the financial burden of the idiots my fellow Michiganders elected.
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    I've not heard very good things about it on the media outlets I frequent. I suspect we will be the losers and the usual suspects will be the winners.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,726 Senior Member
    It's just like everything else we have gotten out of the Republicans in the past several years - a massive disappointment.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,211 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    BS.
    Why in the should I pay federal tax on....tax paid? Did I get that money? Nope. The state did.
    So you would rather pay more federal taxes than people in high tax New York City?
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,577 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    BS.
    Why in the should I pay federal tax on....tax paid? Did I get that money? Nope. The state did.
    Let's focus on lowering the amount of money SPENT, not the amount COLLECTED.

    THANK YOU!

    That's otherwise known as "double taxation".
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,211 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    THANK YOU!

    That's otherwise known as "double taxation".
    So is getting taxed from dividends you received owning corporate stock-- those were first taxed as corporate profits. So is paying sales tax on items with your after tax money, and the gas in your gas tank, the guns and ammunition you buy, the alcohol and tobacco you buy, etc.... this is where the standard exemption comes in. If you choose to elect people at a state and local level that tax the living hell out of you and your tax burden goes way beyond your standard deduction, why does it have to be my problem? How about you take it up with your state and local politicians or move somewhere else?

    So again... I ask why you prefer to pay more federal taxes than someone else making the same money in NYC?
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,577 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    And out of principal, I'll "pay more" than New Yorkers.
    'Cause you're still paying less.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,211 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    You honestly think if they remove that exemption that they will lower taxes? If so, you're high.
    It's a small amount for me anyway. And out of principal, I'll "pay more" than New Yorkers.
    That is what the plan was-- raise the standard deduction and eliminate the ability to itemize mortgage interest and high state/local taxes. Winners= people that own their house with no mortgage or have a small mortgage and people in low tax states. Losers= people that have large mortgages and live in high tax states.

    Go ahead and root for people that have large mortgages and live in high tax states. Go California! Go New York! Go Illinois!!!

    You can do so if you wish.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,577 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Winners= people that own their house with no mortgage or have a small mortgage and people in low tax states.
    That would be a FIRST if it indeed turns out to be the case.

    I'm not holding my breathe...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,651 Senior Member
    I would not be satisfied with any tax bill that didn't tax every person, including the poor, or cutting the taxes of everyone, including the rich. Poor folks need to pay taxes so they care about what those taxes are being spent on, and rich people have as much right to tax cuts as a poor man. Need has nothing to do with it, if we really are a capitalist country. Letting the government determine 'need' among the population is the source of most of the corruption that pisses off the billions that they confiscate from workers. Any money set aside to aid the poor should be a very public bill, done as needed (not automatic) and stringently accounted for.

    So, to answer the question, no, I won't be happy with any bill that is currently being considered. It is watered down so that the faint of heart can vote for it, and designed to simply punch the ticket for those who promised it, when campaigning. In fact, every bill that has been attempted in the last year fits that criteria, and most have still failed. The Dems are dishonest and the Reps are cowards, so nothing of value comes out of Congress.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,211 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    And for me, it really doesn't make eff all difference. I haven't been able to itemize in years.
    Either have I. That is why I am rooting for a bump in the standard deduction.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,211 Senior Member
    Now I am looking through what the House is proposing for small business pass through income-- that looks like a disaster in the making. I am not even sure if I understand it.
  • RAEIndustriesRAEIndustries Member Posts: 68 Member
    Yes all the reports on TV seem to reiterate the "usual suspects benefitting" earlier in the post , although highly possible they will change their story tomorrow
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,146 Senior Member
    I'm a fan of Trumps' original proposal. What the congress is trying to pass falls far below that proposal, therefore it is crap, IMO.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,651 Senior Member
    Now, they are reporting that the Senate bill will contain a repeal of the Obamacare mandate. I don't believe they are serious about it, nor do I believe they will pass it, if they are serious. If they did, and it survived the conference committee with the House, I would consider it a reasonable accomplishment, compared to the so-called 'work' they have been doing, up until now.

    Having said all of that, I'm quite sure that the whole thing will end up disgusting me, and that Congress will take off on another extended holiday.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,741 Senior Member
    Yes all the reports on TV seem to reiterate the "usual suspects benefitting" earlier in the post , although highly possible they will change their story tomorrow

    Ok I'll chime in now. This looks to be the case. When it comes down to writing a bill that benefits the voters vs. one that benefits the donors. The donors always win. Congress has determined that they can still win office if the voters dislike them as long as the steady flow of millions still comes in from the donors. But it doesn't matter if the voters like them if the donors are upset. This is our capitalist republic owned by the highest bidders.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,211 Senior Member
    If we weren't competing in a world economy, I would say that about the corporate tax cut, but the fact of the matter is that lowering the corporate rate not only helps rich people, but helps all Americans in that our corporations are that much more competitive.

    Like Linefinder said in another thread-- companies don't actually pay taxes, their customers do. 35% is hurting us. Look at all the money flowing into Ireland due to their low corporate rate? I want that money to flow here.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,741 Senior Member
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/11/14/why-arent-the-other-hands-up-a-top-trump-advisers-startling-response-to-ceos-not-doing-what-hed-expect/

    That is the theory at least. It's unlikely to actually work out like that. Ultimately companies invest if they have access to capital and profitable ventures to invest it. Taxes have a very limited impact on that other than reducing the amount of capital available for investment. Capital has been basically free for almost a decade now and companies are sitting on piles of cash. The limitation in the economy right now isn't capital, it's demand. We need more money in the hands of people who buy things with it and less money in the hands of people who have more money than they can spend.

    The one exception to this is small business. As you said the details there are tough to make out. If this bill actually is significantly better for small business and not just large corporations than maybe it's ok. But it seems like that may not be the case. A real stimulating bill would completely eliminate taxes on small business below a certain threshold while keeping them reasonably high on successful businesses. Growth is driven by small business not large corporations. The tax code should reflect that if it really wants to drive growth.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    Yea right, capital gets invested into the thirsty pockets of our legislatures. You know, the ones at the Capital. It's a capital idea.

    Never mind the falling bridges, traffic jams, unjust over burdened courts, blah blah blah.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,651 Senior Member
    This is our capitalist republic owned by the highest bidders.

    That is broad statement that has played pretty well for the lefties, for years. However, how much did it cost Trump to nudge out Hilary, and how much did she spend? Or how much did it cost Terry MCAuliffe to buy a win in the Va. governor race, against a populist candidate whose campaign was flat broke and completely un-funded by the Republican Party?

    There is a new wave of populism that can overwhelm the establishment, on occasion. Both parties are gambling that the populists will eventually lose interest and that they will once again be able to purchase enough votes to win. What else can they do, when they don't have any accomplishments to crow about?
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,528 Senior Member
    Dropping the corporate tax rate is going to help. Repatriating the money will help. The new brackets will be a wash. Doing away with deducting state tax is a long time coming. We have been subsidizing the high state tax states for way to long, BTW, I am in one of them 11th IIRC. Those states that keep adding taxes are where those people should look for tax relief, not low tax states. Mortgage interest deduction? It never made a lot of sense to me and since the govt. ordered the banks to make bad loans, has done more harm than good.

    Reading the wapo article, corps paying down debt is even better than adding to their debt. That frees up money for long term investing like buildings.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    That is broad statement that has played pretty well for the lefties, for years. However, how much did it cost Trump to nudge out Hilary, and how much did she spend? Or how much did it cost Terry MCAuliffe to buy a win in the Va. governor race, against a populist candidate whose campaign was flat broke and completely un-funded by the Republican Party?

    There is a new wave of populism that can overwhelm the establishment, on occasion. Both parties are gambling that the populists will eventually lose interest and that they will once again be able to purchase enough votes to win. What else can they do, when they don't have any accomplishments to crow about?

    A repeal of the Supreme Court Citizens United decision would at least trim down the amounts of money. Sometimes I wonder if even that would help though. The power struggle between the media and the POTUS this year has been beyond anything I can even achieve perspective for. I can only predict even greater amounts of money rendering the American voter completely irrelevant.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,528 Senior Member
    The only thing that would do is put all of the money into PAC's again.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    This just in.
    They just can't stick it to us fast enough as frustration fallows a stall in the ivory tower of legislative circus.:p
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,651 Senior Member
    In general, and without a great deal of enthusiasm, I want this bill to pass, for the following reason:

    The economy is soaring, in anticipation of tax cuts. Businesses are already investing and hiring, just on the belief that Congress is going to pass a pro-growth bill that will meet with Trump's approval. My retirement IRA's are climbing steadily, as the stock market reacts to this 'positive' anticipation. Consumer confidence is high, and if folks spend a lot on Christmas this year, that will further fuel the economy. A decent tax cut for the lower segments of the middle class will fuel the housing industry, among others, and lowering corporate taxes will stimulate investment within our national boundaries - more higher paying jobs.

    So, while I have no doubt that this tax bill will fall way short of what I would like, its passage will at least continue and possibly enhance a very good trend that the president helped start with his pro-business rhetoric and continuing removal of draconian regulation. How much of it is real and how much is perception, I don't know. But, I do know that given half a chance, American capitalism works, because the entrepreneurial spirit that exists here has managed to survive and overcome much of the leftist monkey wrenches that have been thrown at it for the previous eight years.
  • john9001john9001 Senior Member Posts: 668 Senior Member
    mortgage interest deduction is factored into the price of the house, ask any honest agent.
  • shootbrownelkshootbrownelk Senior Member Posts: 2,025 Senior Member
    john9001 wrote: »
    mortgage interest deduction is factored into the price of the house, ask any honest agent.

    An "Honest" real estate agent? That'd be as easy as finding an "Honest" used car salesman.
  • gunwalkergunwalker Member Posts: 470 Member
    Well gents, I am not a tax expert but history proves that lowering taxes on business creates jobs and economic growth, which in turn, raised the standard of living. Where I live, the only people who are unemployed are those who choose to be, or have a disability. All of this economic steam based on hope. I doubt very much that we will see much in the way of simplification. However, if the standard deduction goes high enough, a lot of folks who itemize will go back to a simple form. In order to tax the poor I think it would have to be in the form of a sales tax or VAT. Not likely to happen. Two things we should never see being made are a tax bill and sausage.
    We do not view the world as it is, but as we perceive it to be.
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,626 Senior Member
    Neither the bill passed by the House or the bill in the Senate is the law that will be finally enacted and signed by the President. Every provision of both bills is on the table when the House and Senate attempt a reconciliation.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,851 Senior Member
    early wrote: »
    I've not heard very good things about it on the media outlets I frequent. I suspect we will be the losers and the usual suspects will be the winners.

    I disagree, with what we have now about anything a bit simpler and a tax cut of anykind would be an improvement. What remains to be found is to what extent who will benefit the most. But one things for sure, at this point I'd be for almost any bill because if the Trump Administration doesn't get some legislative accomplishment under its belt all of us will suffer. I think at the very least we'll lose the Senate and in that case we will have more Grid Lock and nothing much will be accomplished before the 2020 elections and then it will be bye bye White House for sure.

    The bright side of all this is for once the Senate is trying to put differences aside and come up with a bill. This bill will no doubt be more of a compromise than I would like, but it will most likely be an improvement to some degree, if in fact they finally get off high center and get it passed.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
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