Ghost Guns?

sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior MemberPosts: 1,569 Senior Member
LOS ANGELES — The man who went on a shooting rampage in Northern California this week found an easy way around a court order prohibiting him from having guns: He secretly built them at home.
Police say Kevin Neal made the two high-powered rifles he had when he was fatally shot by police Tuesday after he killed his wife and four others.
It's the latest case of homemade weapons being used in a crime and it comes as federal authorities try to draw attention to what are called "ghost guns." They can be easily built from kits purchased legally over the internet and contain no registration numbers, making them untraceable.
While making a ghost gun is legal, selling one is not. Federal officials are trying to crack down on illegal mills where such guns are built and sold.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/terrorists-felons-and-wife-beaters-can-buy-this-gun_us_5a0dc227e4b023a796fed490

So with no FFL or manufacturer license I can now legally turn a rough cast AR lower receiver into a functional receiver that is not considered a firearm by BATF?

Replies

  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,051 Senior Member
    That's been legal for... a while. As long as at the most only 80% of the work has been done by the source (leaving you to do the remaining 20%) it's legal. And has been for a while.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Old RonOld Ron Senior Member Posts: 3,651 Senior Member
    If my memory serves me right years back there was a company that sold a kit foe a 50 cal. Some said it was better built than the Barrett 50. I was thinking about buying one then the IRS & ATF put a stop to him selling those kits. Has this all changed now ?
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,569 Senior Member
    That's been legal for... a while. As long as at the most only 80% of the work has been done by the source (leaving you to do the remaining 20%) it's legal. And has been for a while.
    Thank you. I guess I missed that. It just does not seem like something BATF would allow. I remember when you could purchase FN/FAL and other parts kits with everything but the receiver which had to be purchased from an FFL dealer.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,051 Senior Member
    Google 80% receiver. You can get one for an AR, or get a flat for an AK and be good to go. Just depends on how good you are. I don't think they ever made 80% FAL receivers. I believe they use a steel receiver for the FAL. That could be part of the issue.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,789 Senior Member
    FWIW, I have turned out 4 of the composite AR lowers and 3 aluminum lowers for my own use from 80% receiver kits. They aren't all that easy to do even with a jig and a milling machine.

    It is totally legal per BATFE rules to make your own firearms for personal use. I also have 2 G-17 80% lower kits I haven't started on yet. And there are a lot of 80% 1911 kits out there, too, as well as other firearms kits in the 80% kit world. Like an AR 10, for instance. Several kits for AR 10 rifles are available.

    The .50 BMG kit Old Ron referred to is the clone of the Grizzly LAR rifle kit. The reason it got squashed by the BATFE is because the receiver was slightly more than %80 percent finished. The fines from that fiasco sort of shut down production IIRC.

    The term 'ghost gun' is a misnomer thrown out by the press and the Po-Po to refer to any firearm that didn't get built by a known and licensed firearms manufacturer, but was rather built by an individual from an 80% kit or from raw stock. Some people put a serial number on the receiver, and some don't. That no serial number thing is where the 'ghost gun' moniker came from, BTW, due to the inability to trace the manufacturer to consumer. It's scare talk to make the sheeple poop their pants, including the sheeple in Congress and the State Legislatures. In other words, the easily misled that don't know how to do a search on Federal firearms law on the BATFE website, or really how to begin a search, so they just take whatever the Lamestream Media, politicians, and police with an agenda feed them. People have been building their own firearms from plans available from books, and now online, for a LONG time. And those plans include anything from a really simple .22 LR single shot pistol to bolt action rifles, and some pretty nice shotguns, and everything in between. A feller with a milling machine and a lathe who is relatively competent can turn out some nice firearms for his own use.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,588 Senior Member
    It's an area where the market is pushing the limits and then ATF or Congress are likely to start pushing back. Google ghost Gunner. It's an expensive tool for a law abiding hobbyist, but a Mexican drug cartel's wet dream.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,666 Senior Member
    It's an area where the market is pushing the limits and then ATF or Congress are likely to start pushing back. Google ghost Gunner. It's an expensive tool for a law abiding hobbyist, but a Mexican drug cartel's wet dream.


    I would be willing to bet that the mexican cartels have gotten an infinite percentage more guns from the damn DOJ and ATF than they have EVER built from an 80% receiver or built on a Ghost Gunner.

    By the way, the Ghost gunner is just a tabletop CNC machine with a per-loaded program. It's another one of those "You can't stop the signal" things.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,053 Senior Member
    And with the resources a Mexican drug cartel has, they could be cranking out all the 0% lowers they want without any issues.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,789 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    I would be willing to bet that the mexican cartels have gotten an infinite percentage more guns from the damn DOJ and ATF than they have EVER built from an 80% receiver or built on a Ghost Gunner.

    By the way, the Ghost gunner is just a tabletop CNC machine with a per-loaded program. It's another one of those "You can't stop the signal" things.

    Yeah, that Fast And Furious fiasco comes to mind.

    The software that can be had for that tabletop CNC machine includes AR 15, AR 10, 1911, Glock, Sig, and a few other popular firearms platforms. The genie done escaped the bottle on that one, the train has left the station, and there is now way to put the genie back in the bottle or stop the train.

    And FWIW, I know of a place where you can get plans, as in dimensioned machinist drawings, for making a TOTALLY STEEL AR 15 or AR 10 lower by just buying the correct steel plate, cutting, machining on milling machine, and welding it all together with stick or MIG welder. To say it's bonehead simple to do is an understatement. And there are bolt action variations if you want to go to something that is a little more powerful than the normal fodder for the AR 15 and AR 10. The antigunners have put the people in the DIY shooting community in high gear coming out with new stuff that is easy to build.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,352 Senior Member
    It's an area where the market is pushing the limits and then ATF or Congress are likely to start pushing back. Google ghost Gunner. It's an expensive tool for a law abiding hobbyist, but a Mexican drug cartel's wet dream.


    I would like someone - ANYONE - to explain to me why the "Mexican drug cartel" gives a tinker's damn about serial numbers on firearms? According to the previous POTUS and AG, they buy their firearms at LGS locations across the border. Apparently, they like paying retail plus tax.

    Seriously... in my estimation, the cartels aren't going to waste time building firearms when they can be bought by the boxcar load in sketchy locations all over this world. The fact that otherwise thinking people are pointing to this as an actual threat gives me brain cramps.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,668 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    I would like someone - ANYONE - to explain to me why the "Mexican drug cartel" gives a tinker's damn about serial numbers on firearms? .
    To make it easier when they do inventory to file their taxes????
    :rotflmao:
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,789 Senior Member
    And regarding firearms without serial numbers, here's a factoid that will make the Loony Left all crap their panties full simultaneously.

    PRIOR TO THE GCA 1968 IT WAS NOT REQUIRED FOR MANUFACTURERS TO PLACE SERIAL NUMBERS ON THE FIREARMS THEY MANUFACTURED AND SOLD. There's several million of them out there, too.

    I have several firearms made prior to 1968 that do not have a serial number stamped/engraved on the receiver.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • JamesAPrattIIIJamesAPrattIII Member Posts: 152 Member
    Back in the 1970s a firearms magazine told how to make a 1911 pistol by buying the parts one piece at the time.
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,352 Senior Member
    Back in the 1970s a firearms magazine told how to make a 1911 pistol by buying the parts one piece at the time.

    That's not making one, just assembling it. Still, the point stands. The only fly in that ointment would be the fact that the receiver (frame) would indeed have a serial number which would have been recorded if you happened to buy it from a gun shop.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,668 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    A quick point. It is ABSOLUTELY considered a firearm by the ATF and by any judge that is listening to arguments in a criminal trial.
    Yep, the moment you cross the 80% completed threshold, it's considered a firearm.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,051 Senior Member
    Also, in the original article, it says selling a ghost gun is illegal. I thought you could sell one IF you didn't do it for commercial sale? And if you did sell it, would you need to stamp/engrave a serial number on it?
    Overkill is underrated.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,668 Senior Member
    Also, in the original article, it says selling a ghost gun is illegal. I thought you could sell one IF you didn't do it for commercial sale? And if you did sell it, would you need to stamp/engrave a serial number on it?
    I don't think so.

    Everything I've read seems to say you can make it for yourself, or as a gift, but selling it is verboten.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,051 Senior Member
    Okay, I see.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,668 Senior Member
    Here's what I find ironic....
    Building one for yourself is legal, but YOU are required to do the work....

    Building one as a gift is legal... but YOU must do the work.

    If you have a friend that's a machinist, why wouldn't THEM doing the work for you, for free, be considered them giving it to you as a gift???
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,051 Senior Member
    Because ATF...
    Overkill is underrated.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,051 Senior Member
    ...and how do you prove "intent?"
    Overkill is underrated.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,668 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Because they would not be building it for their own use so it’s considerd manufacturing of a firearm. They never take possession of the gun as BATF understands it. Same as you buying a gun as a gift. You take “possession” of the firearm when you fill out the 4473, THEN you can gift it since it is YOUR propert. But even though the mechanics are exactly the same for a straw purchase, these are illegal because you never “intend” to take possession of the gun.
    Except it is PERFECTLY LEGAL to complete an 80% as a gift.
    A few years ago a guy on RFC checked into it with both his lawyer and the BATFEieieo before he completed a steel "10/22" receiver for one of his kid's Christmas gift
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • Green Mtn. BoyGreen Mtn. Boy New Member Posts: 34 Member
    I ain't never seen one ,I don't believe in no ghosts.
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