A situation...

zorbazorba Senior MemberPosts: 16,558 Senior Member
Tell me how this should have been handled.

Wife and friend sitting in friend's car in parking lot of friend's appt. complex, waiting for a delivery (which never came). "Nice looking, well groomed man in his early 40s" approaches the friend's side of the car (driver's) and tells her that he wants to give her a hug. Friend says "no". Guy reaches in through open window and touches friend on the shoulder. She rolls up her window. Wife tells him to "go away immediately" or she's calling 911. He says "Go ahead", and becomes very agitated, yelling and flipping them off. Wife calls 911, the cops come after entirely too long, and promptly cuff & stuff this guy (who had eventually wandered off a short distance.).

Now, wife did NOT have her carry piece - and yes, she was wishing she had. Could have, or should have, she drawn? If so, when? I don't think this was a shooting situation at all as it panned out, but what should my wife have done if she had had her piece? Anything?
-Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

My Karma ran over your Dogma!
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Replies

  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    They handled it just fine without the threat of lethal force. No different if they were armed.

    Guy had mental illness issues most likely.

    I know some women, he woulda drawed back a stub after reaching in the car.

    It was a good job for police to handle.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 7,873 Senior Member
    They did fine, the police taking so long to get there is a different story.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 724 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    Guy reaches in through open window

    That was the mistake right there. Window should have been up.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,558 Senior Member
    10canyon53 wrote: »
    That was the mistake right there. Window should have been up.

    Its Florida - it was hot. Not necessarily the best for OPSEC, but understandable.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,199 Senior Member
    Should have driven away as soon as he got agitated.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,953 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    Should have driven away as soon as he got agitated.

    Should have driven away seconds after it happening, or better yet as he walked up.
    Some thoughts.
    Air conditioning. It's a thing. Keep the windows closed, doors locked. Drive away the instant the D bag walks up. No one owes anyone anything. It's ok to be an to total strangers who are invading your space. They don't like it? them.
    Sitting in a car you're a sitting duck. A person on the outside has freedom of movement, and FAR more leverage than someone sitting in a car. And, he could have just as easily stuck a knife in her neck as to touch her shoulder. Quite frankly, they are both lucky he wasn't set on assault or worse. A knife in the drivers neck, and she's done. Too freaked out to think, there's zero chance she would have driven away. Your wife would have been freaked out also (understandably so) and would have been the next victim.

    Was it a shooting incident? Probably not. Would a female get away with shooting the dirtbag in that situation? Absolutely.(at least in free states) A male? Hell no. Disparity of force and all that.

    So, tell her to carry her gun. Relying on cops is the single most stupid thing anyone can do. It's not a slight toward cops. It's the simple fact that they aren't where you are, and as cliche as it sounds, when seconds counts, cops are minutes away.
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 9,560 Senior Member
    Diver43 wrote: »
    They did fine, the police taking so long to get there is a different story.

    How long is so long?
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 724 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    Its Florida - it was hot. Not necessarily the best for OPSEC, but understandable.

    I live in Florida too, not far from you. There is this invention called air conditioning. In Southern Komiefornia it may be optional in a vehicle, here in Flawduh, not so much.

    I am constantly reminding my wife to carry anytime she is not going to work (she is a teacher, carrying at work is not an option). I even make her carry when I am with her. That excuse "But you are with me and you are carrying" don't fly with me. Who knows, I may need her to back me up. :guns:
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 724 Senior Member
    SIGgal wrote: »
    They handled it perfectly. He didn't have a weapon....... or doesn't sound like he did, so they could have been is a jam if they used deadly force even though he reached into the car. Not sticking up for him........ guys touch me all the time and I want to kill them all lol

    This isn't New Jersey, thankfully. Here are the applicable Florida statutes:

    776.012 Use or threatened use of force in defense of person.—
    (1) A person is justified in using or threatening to use force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. A person who uses or threatens to use force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat before using or threatening to use such force.

    (2) A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person who uses or threatens to use deadly force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground if the person using or threatening to use the deadly force is not engaged in a criminal activity and is in a place where he or she has a right to be.


    776.08 Forcible felony.—“Forcible felony” means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.


    Key phrase to use with the responding officer: "I was in fear for my life"
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 13,966 Senior Member
    SIGgal wrote: »
    They handled it perfectly. He didn't have a weapon....... or doesn't sound like he did, so they could have been is a jam if they used deadly force even though he reached into the car. Not sticking up for him........ guys touch me all the time and I want to kill them all lol

    If they start drawing back a nub they'll stop doing that......
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 724 Senior Member
    Remember she lives in Jersey. They don't even let you pump your own gas in Jersey, much less defend yourself. :rotflmao:
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Moderator Posts: 26,671 Senior Member
    Situational awareness. They should have been on the lookout for anyone headed for the car and the car should have been running with the AC on and windows up. When approached the window can roll down one inch so communications can be had. The second it felt weird the car goes in gear and you drive away and call 911. There was no reason to draw a firearm but it should have been easily accessible.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,558 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    So, tell her to carry her gun. Relying on cops is the single most stupid thing anyone can do. It's not a slight toward cops. It's the simple fact that they aren't where you are, and as cliche as it sounds, when seconds counts, cops are minutes away.

    This was driven home for her today. And frankly, for me too.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,245 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Should have driven away seconds after it happening, or better yet as he walked up.
    Some thoughts.
    Air conditioning. It's a thing. Keep the windows closed, doors locked. Drive away the instant the D bag walks up. No one owes anyone anything. It's ok to be an to total strangers who are invading your space. They don't like it? them.
    Sitting in a car you're a sitting duck. A person on the outside has freedom of movement, and FAR more leverage than someone sitting in a car. And, he could have just as easily stuck a knife in her neck as to touch her shoulder. Quite frankly, they are both lucky he wasn't set on assault or worse. A knife in the drivers neck, and she's done. Too freaked out to think, there's zero chance she would have driven away. Your wife would have been freaked out also (understandably so) and would have been the next victim.

    Was it a shooting incident? Probably not. Would a female get away with shooting the dirtbag in that situation? Absolutely.(at least in free states) A male? Hell no. Disparity of force and all that.

    So, tell her to carry her gun. Relying on cops is the single most stupid thing anyone can do. It's not a slight toward cops. It's the simple fact that they aren't where you are, and as cliche as it sounds, when seconds counts, cops are minutes away.


    :agree:

    If you can get out of a situation quickly and easily ... that is the best and smartest choice. After you make distance call 911 but don’t hang around and let things possibly get worse. As to carrying ... damn straight have it and have the mindset to use it if needed but if you can do something way easier like leaving ... leave.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 17,539 Senior Member
    I'm going to be the voice a dissent here.

    The moment he laid hands on an occupant of the car, I'd have given him an UP CLOSE and personal look at the muzzle of a firearm.

    Whether or not there would be gunfire would be COMPLETELY dependant on his actions from that point forward.

    I can't say anything about the windows being down. On pleasant days, when wife needs to "just get one thing" from the store while we're out. It's not uncommon for me to have the windows down and the ignition off while I sit there and enjoy a cigarette and listen to tunes.

    Because the windows are down, I normally have my CCW "out" and resting beside my leg though.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 9,805 Senior Member
    SIGgal wrote: »
    Nope, here in New Jersey I am supposed to accept rape, robbery and any other violent crime that can happen to me. The law even says I must provide pizza and puppies to my attacker so they feel good about themselves afterward. And that is me being serious....... this state does stink!

    But, but, I hear the retirement benefits are great:wink:
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 13,966 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    This was driven home for her today. And frankly, for me too.

    Sometimes it takes something like that to remind folks that bad stuff doesn't happen on our schedule.

    Someone very close to me was assaulted on a day when she felt she didn't feel like carrying.... thankfully she got away without injury.....she reported it and it turned out the guy was a serial rapist and out on parole from a 2nd degree murder charge.....(how that happens I have no freaking idea)....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 724 Senior Member
    SIGgal wrote: »
    They are great! But I wont be around long enough to collect them, we are going to head south in a few years so we don't take a bath on the house we just built. I'm thinking the parentals are right, and it is time to get out of here.

    Tell your man that Florida Highway Patrol is hiring.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,314 Senior Member
    When the hand came through the plane of the window was when the projectiles should be pointed downrange.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,302 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Should have driven away seconds after it happening, or better yet as he walked up.
    Some thoughts.
    Air conditioning. It's a thing. Keep the windows closed, doors locked. Drive away the instant the D bag walks up. No one owes anyone anything. It's ok to be an to total strangers who are invading your space. They don't like it? them.
    Sitting in a car you're a sitting duck. A person on the outside has freedom of movement, and FAR more leverage than someone sitting in a car. And, he could have just as easily stuck a knife in her neck as to touch her shoulder. Quite frankly, they are both lucky he wasn't set on assault or worse. A knife in the drivers neck, and she's done. Too freaked out to think, there's zero chance she would have driven away. Your wife would have been freaked out also (understandably so) and would have been the next victim.

    Was it a shooting incident? Probably not. Would a female get away with shooting the dirtbag in that situation? Absolutely.(at least in free states) A male? Hell no. Disparity of force and all that.

    So, tell her to carry her gun. Relying on cops is the single most stupid thing anyone can do. It's not a slight toward cops. It's the simple fact that they aren't where you are, and as cliche as it sounds, when seconds counts, cops are minutes away.

    Pretty much this.

    As to if it was a shooting incident, it PROBABLY would have been justified for the short period of time that he was reaching in the window and touching. At that point ' you haz a fear'. When he drew back and started ranting, then you had options and distance.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 6,658 Senior Member
    Post # 11, +1. This is WHY we CC.

    The guy's actions could easily have been precursors to a physical assault of any degree, with or without a carjacking and/or kidnapping thrown in. At the point things get to an attacker making physical contact with an unprepared victim, it's usually pretty much OVER. She refused a request for physical contact from a total stranger and the refusal did not prevent the guy from making contact anyway. The pat on the shoulder could just as easily have been a knife stroke from ear to ear, with just as little warning.

    If a handgun was present in that situation, it should have been accessible, arrival of idiot or not.

    Time to get the gun out was when he made his request, maybe sooner, depending on other signals.

    Time to point it at his thoracic cavity & give verbal warning of imminent doom was when he advanced to make contact.

    If the next few seconds result in the desired peaceful retreat instead of a sucking chest wound, the next step is still the call to 911 (1.) for CYA, (2.) to ensure he doesn't revise his strategy & try again with someone less able to deal with him.

    I personally would not say that the rules are different for men and women in that situation, but there's no doubt they favor women. While you certainly don't want to draw down on every little squirrel that rustles a leaf behind your back, you need to be aware that it's quite possible for the morally upstanding CCW holder to be killed quite dead in the mental pause of "What is this?. . .Is this what I think it is?. . .Am I legally justified in bringing my gun out?. . .Am I REALLY sure I should shoot?" Meanwhile, the criminal, who is simply carrying out a plan thought out before you were even aware of his existence, runs you over like the deer in the headlights you are.

    The adjustment that needs to be made in our heads (I think), is that FIRING the gun needs to be considered a different, far more serious act than DRAWING the gun. This is not in any way to suggest that drawing the weapon should be a casual act. The problem is that the two can easily be placed on the same level of seriousness, with the result being that the gun isn't even coming out until the time it NEEDS to be fired, and that can be WAY too late for it to do you any good.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 9,805 Senior Member
    SIGgal wrote: »
    They are great! But I wont be around long enough to collect them, we are going to head south in a few years so we don't take a bath on the house we just built. I'm thinking the parentals are right, and it is time to get out of here.

    I think that is a good idea:up:
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,433 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    I'm going to be the voice a dissent here.

    The moment he laid hands on an occupant of the car, I'd have given him an UP CLOSE and personal look at the muzzle of a firearm.

    This would be my approach as well. I've had enough close calls that I don't take this situation for granted anymore.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,559 Senior Member
    Sitting in a car, in an apartment complex parking lot, waiting for a delivery? Sounds like a drug deal to me. When I'm waiting for a delivery, I'm waiting for it in the house. No honest biz is going to deliver a package or a pizza to "we're waiting in a car in the parking lot."

    Need more details on this one.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,091 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Should have driven away seconds after it happening, or better yet as he walked up.
    Some thoughts.
    Air conditioning. It's a thing. Keep the windows closed, doors locked. Drive away the instant the D bag walks up. No one owes anyone anything. It's ok to be an to total strangers who are invading your space. They don't like it? them.
    Sitting in a car you're a sitting duck. A person on the outside has freedom of movement, and FAR more leverage than someone sitting in a car. And, he could have just as easily stuck a knife in her neck as to touch her shoulder. Quite frankly, they are both lucky he wasn't set on assault or worse. A knife in the drivers neck, and she's done. Too freaked out to think, there's zero chance she would have driven away. Your wife would have been freaked out also (understandably so) and would have been the next victim.

    Was it a shooting incident? Probably not. Would a female get away with shooting the dirtbag in that situation? Absolutely.(at least in free states) A male? Hell no. Disparity of force and all that.

    So, tell her to carry her gun. Relying on cops is the single most stupid thing anyone can do. It's not a slight toward cops. It's the simple fact that they aren't where you are, and as cliche as it sounds, when seconds counts, cops are minutes away.

    This is one of my favorite gun rights cliche's. Another is "I carry a gun because a Cop's too heavy."
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,091 Senior Member
    10canyon53 wrote: »
    I live in Florida too, not far from you. There is this invention called air conditioning. In Southern Komiefornia it may be optional in a vehicle, here in Flawduh, not so much.

    I am constantly reminding my wife to carry anytime she is not going to work (she is a teacher, carrying at work is not an option). I even make her carry when I am with her. That excuse "But you are with me and you are carrying" don't fly with me. Who knows, I may need her to back me up. :guns:

    Amen to all this. Why spend money on a carry weapon and getting a Carry permit if you're going to leave it at the house? Two being armed is better than one.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,558 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    Sitting in a car, in an apartment complex parking lot, waiting for a delivery? Sounds like a drug deal to me. When I'm waiting for a delivery, I'm waiting for it in the house. No honest biz is going to deliver a package or a pizza to "we're waiting in a car in the parking lot."

    Need more details on this one.

    This woman is waiting for an Ikea delivery that they can't seem to be able to make. Its failed at least twice. This particular time, they asked her to meet them so they could find the appt. They still didn't show - its turning into a class A fiasco.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 724 Senior Member
    Sounds like it's time to rent a truck and go pick it up from Ikea.....
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,558 Senior Member
    10canyon53 wrote: »
    Sounds like it's time to rent a truck and go pick it up from Ikea.....

    Probably. I'm staying out of it - if there was ever a "tar baby", this is it!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,559 Senior Member
    zorba wrote: »
    This woman is waiting for an Ikea delivery that they can't seem to be able to make. Its failed at least twice. This particular time, they asked her to meet them so they could find the appt. They still didn't show - its turning into a class A fiasco.

    Ikea sells drugs now? Kool.
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