Self defense without a gun

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Replies

  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,080 Senior Member
    The rule is to attack. Swiftly, effectively and with great abandon!

    Keep in mind the guys on the train in France. They were unarmed against armed!

    Look at this interesting vid of a Russian lad and three opponents.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmKGLeZ84lk
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,644 Senior Member
    Regarding stabbing vs. slashing... I've got a few friends who have gone through LEO training where they educated recruits on the 21 ft. guideline. The trainer who was the bad guy usually came in with a slashing attack, not a stabbing attack. When the recruits asked why, they were told 2 things....

    1. Most folks expect stabs and try to protect against them.
    2. Slashes can render arms and legs useless really quickly. Then you can do with them whatever you want.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,302 Senior Member
    So- some of you knife gurus... suggest a social carry knife.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 14,172 Senior Member
    I have 3 Kershaw Volt II's that I keep in rotation with the clip reversed. I tried a Blur, but I am better/faster at working the action on the Volt.
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,965 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    So- some of you knife gurus... suggest a social carry knife.

    I ain't a guru, but I like my Blur. The clip can be configured to be carried tip down, with the back of the blade against the back of my left pocket if that makes sense. Meaning I can draw it, flip it with my ring finger, and it's in position with the blade out the bottom of my hand. Anything I'd want to carry for defense will be spring assisted. Yes, you can open good quality knives as fast (you ain't gonna measure milliseconds) as an assisted blade, but you AINT gonna open one fast with your arms and hands wrapped up by a dirtbag. Pinky finger is all it takes to open it.
    I've got a small fixed blade made by Buck that I really like, and think a fixed blade has a folder beat hands down as a people knife. Except they aren't the easiest to conceal. I've had ideas on how to design a sheath for it to make it easier to conceal, but have never quite perfected the design. I may revisit that project.
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 31,709 Senior Member
    I ain't much on pointy/stabby/slashy things....................I prefer a gun, not always possible though.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 14,172 Senior Member
    Now Gene is kind of on to something with the whole stabbing thing-- just a thought here, but if you were hunting pigs with a knife, would you use the same knife, or something different? My first thought is that I would use my Mark II and I would go for a deep stab, but that would be for hunting where I would have the luxury of choosing when/how/if it would get used.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 19,444 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Now Gene is kind of on to something with the whole stabbing thing-- just a thought here, but if you were hunting pigs with a knife, would you use the same knife, or something different? My first thought is that I would use my Mark II and I would go for a deep stab, but that would be for hunting where I would have the luxury of choosing when/how/if it would get used.

    I have killed pigs both ways. Stabbing and cutting.

    Stabbing takes considerably longer. And takes multiple stabs with anything less than a big ass knife. Chased one once. Stabbing it as we went along. It just kept running and running until I tripped it up and jumped on top of it.

    I’ve even experimented with stabbing low behind the leg in the region of the heart. Then, cutting upwards along the rib towards the spine. Opening up the entire chest cavity and compromising the respiratory system. That seemed to work well. Kind of a hybrid method.

    Otherwise, cutting their throat is the most effective method of incapacitation.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 9,562 Senior Member
    Zee, I think you and I are imagining different self defense scenarios. I'm assuming an attack where deadly force is justified and you apparently are not, since you want merely to stop the attacker. A knife is a deadly weapon just like a gun, and the SD situation must justify the use of a deadly weapon, which means your life is in danger. To me this is a severe situation beyond just getting jumped on and wrestled about. Just to get someone off you implies your situation is not dire, which would call into question cutting someone with a deadly weapon in the first place. If the guy is trying to kill or serious injure you, which is the basis for using deadly force, of course you only want to use enough force to stop the threat.

    With a firearm, we shoot to stop the attack when justified. We don't shoot him in the arm or leg. We're taught to shoot center of mass as this is the most likely to stop the attack. Once the decision to use deadly force is reached, one must accept the seriousness of the situation in order to justify use of deadly force. For me the rule of center of mass is still the correct choice.

    My interpretation of a knife-fight situation is more grim and a fight for my life. Hence the quickest way to end the fight with deadly force, which I think is stabbing.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 19,444 Senior Member
    No. It’s a deadly force situation and I’m considering it as such.

    What I’m saying is that, the fastest way to stop a threat with a knife is to do multiple things with as little motion as possible.

    Rendering the weapon carrying limb useless by cutting tendons, muscles, and ligaments while at the same time severing arteries.......ends the threat to me much faster that a single stab to the chest.

    Severing the inner thy tendon next to the groin will typically drop the assailant and the upward cut will equally sever the femoral artery and well..........start the clock to needing a white shirt.

    There is no question as to deadly force. I’m just trying to be as efficient in my method as possible. I’d just as soon not have to sit on top of the dude.......stabbing down into his chest like a psychopath or punching him with a punch knife like Rocky Balboa for 8 rounds.

    With 3 cuts, arm (with offending weapon), throat, and behind the knee, I can eliminate and drop the threat while sending him to the great beyond.

    The only place I advocate stabbing to fast result is the throat.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 14,172 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    I have killed pigs both ways. Stabbing and cutting.

    Stabbing takes considerably longer. And takes multiple stabs with anything less than a big ass knife. Chased one once. Stabbing it as we went along. It just kept running and running until I tripped it up and jumped on top of it.

    I’ve even experimented with stabbing low behind the leg in the region of the heart. Then, cutting upwards along the rib towards the spine. Opening up the entire chest cavity and compromising the respiratory system. That seemed to work well. Kind of a hybrid method.

    Otherwise, cutting their throat is the most effective method of incapacitation.
    Well, there goes my idea! It figures that if anyone would have tried that, it would be you. I got this mental image of a midget with a knife taking a wild pig ride.
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,245 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    So- some of you knife gurus... suggest a social carry knife.

    Well, to me it’s like a pistol and personal preference comes into play. Personally I carry a Zero Tolerance 0566 w/ a plain 3:25” blade. It’s built like a tank, holds and edge real nice and ZT’s warranty is tops except for losing it. I also have its Kershaw cousin the Cryo II for work because it the same basic design but 1/4 the price (Chinese made with lesser steel but still very nice) in case I lose it.

    As to a knife more geared for fighting, years back when going thru some training we had a week of knife fighting. The first day the first thing the instructor said was “In a knife fight you will get cut!” and I was not to happy at that thought. Anyway, we used the spear point type and were actually given a Gerber Covert Folder I actually like for pure defense design ... 3.75” spear point blade with 1/4 serration. That thing to me is mean ... you can stab easily with that blade profile or slash with the shape edge and serrations and we were taught use both. For general use though it just isn’t as comfortable as the Hinder design ZT 0566 or Kershaw Cryo II ... but personal preference here. The Convert has a little brother call the Mini which is nice but for its purpose the 1” shorter blade neuters it’s effectiveness to me. It also has a bigger brother the Combat Folder but its 4.5” blade is a little to big for me to carry fairly easily but a sweet knife.

    If you are thinking of knife defense ... take a course! If it’s like what I went through with the damn rubber knives you’ll have a new respect ... and a bunch of red welts ... for what a person can do with a blade. I personally learned then I needed to work on my running cause I do not want to be in a knife fight cause I sucked.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,965 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Well, there goes my idea! It figures that if anyone would have tried that, it would be you. I got this mental image of a midget with a knife taking a wild pig ride.

    I'd pay good money to watch that.
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,316 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Well, there goes my idea! It figures that if anyone would have tried that, it would be you. I got this mental image of a midget with a knife taking a wild pig ride.

    Elf on the shelf with spurs and a Ka-bar
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,965 Senior Member
    Back to not knives...fire extinguishers. A quick blast to the face is gonna blind someone for a second, (assuming the most common dry chemical type extinguisher) and also makes a handy bludgeon. And keeps us in the fire protection business profitable. We service a school that purchased one for each classroom, simply for protection against intruders.
    It WILL get in your face, but it's more annoying than incapacitating. Getting the full force in your face is different, but not a threat stopper. But it will buy you time. Hell, squeeze the handle and keep it squeezed, and in any office setting you'll create a smoke screen and you can exit ninja style! Our warehouse guy can attest to that...one fell off the shelf and broke making one HELL of a mess.
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 13,966 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    I'd pay good money to watch that.

    https://youtu.be/QszxC7SBAmo
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 13,966 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Back to not knives...fire extinguishers. A quick blast to the face is gonna blind someone for a second, (assuming the most common dry chemical type extinguisher) and also makes a handy bludgeon. And keeps us in the fire protection business profitable. We service a school that purchased one for each classroom, simply for protection against intruders.
    It WILL get in your face, but it's more annoying than incapacitating. Getting the full force in your face is different, but not a threat stopper. But it will buy you time. Hell, squeeze the handle and keep it squeezed, and in any office setting you'll create a smoke screen and you can exit ninja style! Our warehouse guy can attest to that...one fell off the shelf and broke making one HELL of a mess.

    An often overlooked option......
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 19,444 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Back to not knives...fire extinguishers. A quick blast to the face is gonna blind someone for a second, (assuming the most common dry chemical type extinguisher) and also makes a handy bludgeon. And keeps us in the fire protection business profitable. We service a school that purchased one for each classroom, simply for protection against intruders.
    It WILL get in your face, but it's more annoying than incapacitating. Getting the full force in your face is different, but not a threat stopper. But it will buy you time. Hell, squeeze the handle and keep it squeezed, and in any office setting you'll create a smoke screen and you can exit ninja style! Our warehouse guy can attest to that...one fell off the shelf and broke making one HELL of a mess.

    We use them for unfriendly dogs. Works like a champ.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,316 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Back to not knives...fire extinguishers. A quick blast to the face is gonna blind someone for a second, (assuming the most common dry chemical type extinguisher) and also makes a handy bludgeon. And keeps us in the fire protection business profitable. We service a school that purchased one for each classroom, simply for protection against intruders.
    It WILL get in your face, but it's more annoying than incapacitating. Getting the full force in your face is different, but not a threat stopper. But it will buy you time. Hell, squeeze the handle and keep it squeezed, and in any office setting you'll create a smoke screen and you can exit ninja style! Our warehouse guy can attest to that...one fell off the shelf and broke making one HELL of a mess.

    Anyone who has got a snoot full of a ABC dry chem will attest to that. You will get more than a second as it feels like all the moisture that was in your throat and lungs is gone.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,433 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    I have two knives. One for everyday knife chores kept on my right (strong) side, one kershaw Blur on my left (weak) side for people. Now I'm no knifesmith like that Chavez Chavez over there, (name that movie) but I know enough to ruin a persons day.
    Young Guns.

    If I recall correctly, spoken by Charles "Charley" Bowdre, played by Casey Siemaszko. I liked the second one too.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,965 Senior Member
    Anyone who has got a snoot full of a ABC dry chem will attest to that. You will get more than a second as it feels like all the moisture that was in your throat and lungs is gone.

    I've heard tell of guys in the business who didn't have extinguishers properly secured in their vans...who have had 10 pound ABCs empty their contents. Inside the van. While they were driving. They had to roll down the window and stick their head out to see to get pulled on to the shoulder.
    I may have seen the aftermath, but would have paid to see the actual event.
    And it may have possibly happened twice to the same guy. You'd think, THINK they would have figured it out after the first time...
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,965 Senior Member
    bobbyrlf3 wrote: »
    Young Guns.

    If I recall correctly, spoken by Charles "Charley" Bowdre, played by Casey Siemaszko. I liked the second one too.

    Yes. One of my favorite movies. But the second one....nah. Not a fan.
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,965 Senior Member
    And while not deadly, if one takes the hose from an ABC extinguisher and sticks it in their mouth and squeezes the handle, it warrants a trip to the hospital. True story, but that's all the details I'll give. Safe to say the individual who pulled such a stunt was "troubled".
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • JKPJKP Senior Member Posts: 1,725 Senior Member
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,141 Senior Member
    Back in the dark ages our high school had those stainless steel pressurized-water extinguishers in little recessed spots in the hallway walls. Then the kids figured out they could use them as super-soakers! They got replaced with dry chemical extinguishers eventually.
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 13,966 Senior Member
    This isn't so much about getting into a knife fight but about using a knife to end a fight....regardless of what the bad guy is armed with...or whether he's armed at all....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 13,966 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Back in the dark ages our high school had those stainless steel pressurized-water extinguishers in little recessed spots in the hallway walls. Then the kids figured out they could use them as super-soakers! They got replaced with dry chemical extinguishers eventually.

    I had a couple of those I used to let the kids use as squirt guns....they had a ball with them!

    On the other hand...you can put a lot of fire out with one of them if you know what you're doing....even better if you pour a cup of AFFF when you fill it....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,067 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    But hey, I ain’t opposed to stabbing as well. It’s just not as effective/efficient with most comfortably concealable or daily carried knives.

    :that:

    If I have space enough that I can cut, I'm cutting. I have my preferences of where to cut to facilitate my escape from the situation, but basically if you give me something to cut, Ima oblige.

    Stabbing is for when the assailant hasn't given me enough room to cut (think: tangled ground fighting with arm pinned)...and then I intend to stab until I have enough room to cut.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,316 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    And while not deadly, if one takes the hose from an ABC extinguisher and sticks it in their mouth and squeezes the handle, it warrants a trip to the hospital. True story, but that's all the details I'll give. Safe to say the individual who pulled such a stunt was "troubled".

    If you have a fire under old alum siding, sticking a dry chem under and cutting loose will put it out. If you are near the corner, it will flow out of the corner. Thats how I learned.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,965 Senior Member
    If you have a fire under old alum siding, sticking a dry chem under and cutting loose will put it out. If you are near the corner, it will flow out of the corner. Thats how I learned.

    I walked into our shop HOURS after an incident with the chemical reclaim machine and you could still taste that crap. Can't imagine a facefull. So with this machine You screwed the hose onto the extinguisher, and let it rip. It was filtered, had a dust collector, was made to do reclaim the powder. Worked great, didn't really spill any of it. Until the new guy emptied a BUNCH of extinguishers, not knowing how full it was, and that it needed to be emptied after so many. The lid gave way. POOF! thankfully they got a picture of him. It was PRICELESS. Covered head to toe in yellowish powder.
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
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