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A quesiton about the border wall: who's really gonna pay for it?

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Replies

  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Exactly. Is there some way we could help get that on track to where they are actually working for their citizens as opposed to serving their elite? Granted, we can't seem to do that with our own government, let alone someone elses.

    Wambli and Zee did hit on a good point and I am going to add my thoughts:

    Some rich guy from Manhattan, or even some goober from Michigan really doesn't know what it takes to secure the border. Just because it sounds good at a campaign stop or on an internet forum doesn't make it good or effective policy. The people with the expertise and experience of dealing with the border, day in and day out really should be consulted and empowered to do the right thing based on their experience.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    It is already a crime to hire illegals. If I remember correctly it's at least a 50k fine per occurrence. It unfortunately is almost never enfoced. This and this alone will make the problem go away. No amount of border security will ever fully stop the flow as long as there is a strong driving force. A combination of helping Mexico and other south and central American countries to improve their own economies plus eliminating the viablility of finding work here will dry up a lot of the flows of people. Unfortunately there are significant interests that have major influence in Washington that do not want that. Too much money being made on the backs of illegal labor.

    I thought you were against nation building? Only way to do what you say you want is to take over the governments with puppet governments or outright takeover. Your idea sounds good on the surface, but you'd be getting the vapors as the 'wet work' to carry it out was implemented. Sayin'.

    Edit to add: You are also projecting American values on people that don't necessarily want them, and aren't ready for/can't handle them. That's a problem with not taking into account WHY the country is what it is, and how it got to be that way. Democratic principles have taken root in some places and works after a fashion. But it won't work with people not predisposed to such shenanigans.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    I thought you were against nation building? Only way to do what you say you want is to take over the governments with puppet governments or outright takeover. Your idea sounds good on the surface, but you'd be getting the vapors as the 'wet work' to carry it out was implemented. Sayin'.

    Edit to add: You are also projecting American values on people that don't necessarily want them, and aren't ready for/can't handle them. That's a problem with not taking into account WHY the country is what it is, and how it got to be that way. Democratic principles have taken root in some places and works after a fashion. But it won't work with people not predisposed to such shenanigans.
    You have good points there. How do you enable positive changes without trampling all over them in the process?
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    We don't have to have a wall everywhere, We just need it where the genuine experts say they need it to assist enforcement. Illegal traffic is way down, already, just because it is being enforced more rigorously by more people. An intelligent plan may prevail, if we approach it in a logical way, rather than a purely political way. The fact that ICE is starting to raid companies that are known to hire illegals will decrease it more than anything, if they start making jobs for illegals disappear. The word 'on the street' is that many are not coming because they consider it to be too dangerous, right now, on both sides of the border.

    This is one broken campaign promise that I will approve of, if they actually solve the problem in some other way, which they are definitely making some progress on.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    We don't have to have a wall everywhere, We just need it where the genuine experts say they need it to assist enforcement.
    I agree and Bush got that done in most of the places where it really is effective. The continuous 2000 mile "great wall that Mexico is going to pay for" that was being sold to the public (and people were buying) is silly.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    How do you enable positive changes without trampling all over them in the process?

    Ask Montezuma, Cochise, Sequoyah, and Geronimo how those noble intentions worked, beginning 300 years ago or so. Plus, there's a vaccine that works against smallpox these days. Maybe we could spread AIDS instead.
    Jerry
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Mexico is our 3rd largest trading partner. In 2016, we sent them $262 billion of our crap and they sent us $317 billion of their crap leaving a $55 billion deficit. Tequila HAS to be made in Mexico in order for it to be called tequila, just like Scotch needs to be made in Scotland, Canadian Whiskey in Canada, and Bourbon in the USA. Tequila sales alone were $7.5 billion in 2016-- we could have shaved off almost 14% of that deficit by switching from tequila to bourbon.

    Well hell, for that matter who cares what you call it? We could have Brown and Foreman Cactus Fire Water. I bet we could even make a better tequila like drink than they can. All we have to do is start cultivating Blue Agave cactus.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,907 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    I love watching people who know Ass Hole from an Ass Clown argue about what the border needs. Truly entertaining.

    Exactly. The people on the front lines should be deciding how to best defend the border. I agree with a lot of the suggestions being made regarding penalties for hiring illegals and decriminalizing weed (at least). Those would help stem the flow. But border agents will always be needed. Let them decide how to best do there job. Whether that means a wall, better fencing, more surveillance...etc

    I also believe that it should be much easier and take WAY less time for those that qualify to become a legal citizen.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    We don't have to have a wall everywhere, We just need it where the genuine experts say they need it to assist enforcement. Illegal traffic is way down, already, just because it is being enforced more rigorously by more people. An intelligent plan may prevail, if we approach it in a logical way, rather than a purely political way. The fact that ICE is starting to raid companies that are known to hire illegals will decrease it more than anything, if they start making jobs for illegals disappear. The word 'on the street' is that many are not coming because they consider it to be too dangerous, right now, on both sides of the border.

    This is one broken campaign promise that I will approve of, if they actually solve the problem in some other way, which they are definitely making some progress on.

    Trump himself said this last week. There are places where there are natural barriers and places that can be observed remotely. So no, you don't need a wall everywhere. But where we need one it would stop most of the traffic. A wall in strategic areas would lessen the number of people it would take to properly monitor the border.

    Along the top of that wall there needs to be a 10,000 Volt, 500 Amp Bug Zapper wire just in case some of our friends from south of the border get creative.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    It is already a crime to hire illegals. If I remember correctly it's at least a 50k fine per occurrence. It unfortunately is almost never enfoced. This and this alone will make the problem go away. No amount of border security will ever fully stop the flow as long as there is a strong driving force. A combination of helping Mexico and other south and central American countries to improve their own economies plus eliminating the viablility of finding work here will dry up a lot of the flows of people. Unfortunately there are significant interests that have major influence in Washington that do not want that. Too much money being made on the backs of illegal labor.[/QUOTE

    Ya know I agree with you on this in principle but everytime we try to help other countries like this, corruption takes over and we end up giving a lot of money away for no gain. That's one reason there is opposition to it. We usually end up giving them a bunch of money right off the bat and they squander it and a bunch of it ends up in the pockets of some corrupt foreign politicians instead of it being used for the intended purpose. I mean what their economies need is money, but there are people there that have access to the funds we would give them to start various programs and industry, and they will somehow manage to put most of the money in their own accounts. That's generally why they are like they are in the first place. That's why some American Politicians have tried their hands at nation building, which usually fails for a like reason. You gotta have a little something to work with in the first place.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Why should the "war on poverty" work any better on a global basis than it has for the past 80 years or so here? Since Roosevelt started paying people not to work in the 1930's (W.P.A.) until now, the population of lazy parasites has only grown in size, both in actual numbers and as a voting bloc. The left has been pandering to them in order to stay in power the whole time. Why should we try to bribe corrupt politicians all over the world in hopes they will improve the living conditions of the people they're stealing from when it hasn't worked in this country?
    Jerry
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Why should the "war on poverty" work any better on a global basis than it has for the past 80 years or so here? Since Roosevelt started paying people not to work in the 1930's (W.P.A.) until now, the population of lazy parasites has only grown in size, both in actual numbers and as a voting bloc. The left has been pandering to them in order to stay in power the whole time. Why should we try to bribe corrupt politicians all over the world in hopes they will improve the living conditions of the people they're stealing from when it hasn't worked in this country?
    Jerry
    Handouts aren't the solution. Fair and equitable trade can be. Trade is what is pulling people out of poverty all over the world-- not handouts. Don't dump NAFTA-- while saying so can be a good negotiating tactic, I am sure it could be updated. While doing so, it can be written in such a way that we can make money and bring their economy up to speed with ours and Canada's at the same time. As a bonus, less people will want to come to our country illegally because they have decent jobs at home, and we can sell a whole lot more of our crap to rich Mexicans than we can to poor Mexicans.

    Trump is in an excellent position to enable that change and it would be a great opportunity for everyone.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Put a 10% surcharge on money transfers from the US to Mexico. Walmart and Western Union probably handle a billion a year or more in payments from illegals to families back home.
    Jerry

    I was just at HEB where you can send through Western Union and saw lots of people who might not have had legal credentials sending money. I sent my GF $25 to cover medications. I saw people sending whole paychecks to other countries like Mexico, sending their whole paycheck home. They don't want to be American they just want the benefits. My GF wants more than anything to be an American and live with me here in the USA and enjoy the good life while having opportunity to make a better life. She relishes the opportunity to pay taxes and have a shot at the American Dream.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    I agree and Bush got that done in most of the places where it really is effective. The continuous 2000 mile "great wall that Mexico is going to pay for" that was being sold to the public (and people were buying) is silly.

    Jerm, I love ya man, but if you lived down here you might want a wall or barrier to stop the onslaught of people coming across that border. The skin tone is getting browner by the week. Now that's not meant as racist. My girl is pretty brown. But when you get too many of one race or better, one culture, they have different culture and different ideas on life. A little bit is cool, but too much and it threatens what our country was built upon. Right now, it's about 50% white and 45% Brown. Add in other races and the balence begins to change. Not good.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    Jerm, I love ya man, but if you lived down here you might want a wall or barrier to stop the onslaught of people coming across that border.

    Snake he IS close to the border- - - - -the wrong one. His mind is made up- - - - -don't confuse him with facts. When I was trucking produce from the Brawley and Calexico California area to San Francisco and Oakland, it would have been a lot more profitable hauling guys with "damp spines" than lettuce. 40-something years ago the going rate was $100.00 per head to get the guys past the checkpoint between San Diego and Los Angeles by unloading part of my lettuce onto a box truck, packing the empty space full of illegals, and meeting the truck north of the checkpoint to reload. The coyotes even had legitimate-looking seals for my trailer doors to replace the ones they had to break to manipulate the load around. I never took the bait, but a bunch of the guys I ran with did. There was always a risk of a driver getting killed and his load hijacked at the north meeting point. Lettuce can be sold lots of places- - - -like Mexican restaurants, for instance- - - -it doesn't have fingerprints!
    Jerry
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Snake he IS close to the border- - - - -the wrong one. His mind is made up- - - - -don't confuse him with facts.
    I am sorry. Maybe I shouldn't listen to the people that work protecting that southern border day in and day out. You guys are right. What was I thinking?
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,146 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    This has peaked my curiousity and makes me ask a question that I don't know the answer to. What's the policy/procedure for someone from Mexico crossing the border at an official (for lack of proper term) check point? Is there a passport requirement?

    What I just found is yes and they, also, need a Visa since 1 Jan 2018, not visa issued on arrival as in the past.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,559 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    I agree and Bush got that done in most of the places where it really is effective. The continuous 2000 mile "great wall that Mexico is going to pay for" that was being sold to the public (and people were buying) is silly.

    Hello.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 12,188 Senior Member
    I do not know about elsewhere, but along the border in El Paso, the wall is already there. It is a thick steel fence with a concrete footer.
    When I lived there, along the border freeway the common chain link fence only stopped old ladies from crossing and at best slowed others down. I cant remember how many times I almost ran over border jumpers in that area. Today, not so many, but so many are already there and more come across with legit visitor documents and just dont go back. Border security has merit, and properly placed well built barriers in the proper place will force illegal crossing to be funneled into areas that can be watch using technology and human eyes. Of course having people in our own government and citizens say it is OK for illegals to stay and for tax paying Americans to support them is another story in itself.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Just a suggestion, but how about we spend some money to authorize overtime for border patrol agents that are willing, ready, and able to protect our borders? How about getting their broken rifles fixed? How about raising their salaries in an effort to retain existing BP agents and attract new ones to fill those thousands of unfilled positions?
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 12,188 Senior Member
    After a few years on the job most border patrol officers are at the GS 11 LEO salary. That ain't too shabby for pay. They really need more of them though.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Antipersonnel mines work pretty good, and can be had cheap in bulk purchase. Don't need a fence.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    The OT thing is what gets me... training throughout the year is essentially a fixed cost, benefits are a fixed cost, so it is just a matter of paying extra salary-- of which, had they had the new hires, they would have spent anyway.

    I read something awhile back that the BP union was complaining that they had broken equipment that isn't getting fixed-- that is unacceptable that they aren't given the tools to do their job.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    Here's another idea. How about a border division of the National Guard or maybe even a reserve Border Patrol, that has less strenuous physical requirements, so that citizens can undergo fairly simple training and then work 'X' many days a year to patrol in vehicles or on horseback, and report to the Border Patrol, or back them up in some of the loneliest places - more of an auxiliary than an enforcement arm, but with enough training to help in a pinch. They could carry good radios, with GPS, report in at regular intervals, and avoid contact with illegals, unless absolutely necessary.

    Even middle-aged people in good health could be very helpful in areas that just need to be monitored better. My county sheriff used reserves to very good effect, several years ago. They just showed up, in remote areas, and told the dispatcher how many folks to send, and how fast. They had long guns in their pickups, if needed, but mostly they just stayed out of any fracas. They didn't even have any training, beyond what they witnessed the real cops doing, on the job.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    You have good points there. How do you enable positive changes without trampling all over them in the process?

    You let those countries rise or fall on their own hook. Active intervention has never worked in my lifetime; it has ALWAYS been change from within by the people.

    Want an example? Venezuela is filthy rich in natural resources and has HUGE oil reserves. Yet, THEY ARE OUT OF GASOLINE AND DIESEL FUEL, and are unable to produce enough food for their people. THAT is Bernie the Bernout's plan for the U.S. via Venezuelan socialism. The populace was forcibly disarmed and only the police and military are armed there. They will remain loyal to the government only so long as they are fed, clothed, and payed. That stops and another military junta will happen, and they'll have another worthless dictator at the helm of a starving population. That cycle is the blueprint all over the world, and has happened MANY times in South America and Africa, the Middle East, the Far East, and places closer to us in the Caribbean (Clue: Cuba and Haiti). Until the people in those countries have an epiphany and get that there is a way to break that cycle, and do it themselves, they they will remain the starving slaves of a failed system that uses them like toilet paper and flushes them with the rest of the excrement. U.S. and other countries meddling in their affairs just gives them a target to hate, even if the meddling is improving their lives.

    And a better question is why do WE in the U.S. take in refugees from these places that have no intention of assimilation and rather seek only to make problems and commit wholesale crime on the citizens of this country? Why do WE not enforce the immigration laws of our own country? Compassion is a good thing, but is not all that great when those you have compassion for are here to maim, kill, rape, and slit the throats of the compassionate.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    I do a lot of work in Detroit. These are bank repossessions that sit vacant. My job is to quite often come in and replace the items that were stolen so the property can be conveyed to HUD. Typically, the furnace, water heater, and AC systems are gone. So is any copper pipe and wiring. All the plumbing fixtures get taken. Even the kitchen sink (and the cabinets).

    There are some properties where I am on my 9th time-- replacing this stuff-- over and over again. I have been dinking with some of these problem properties for 5 years now. To secure the properties, they usually just start with a special keyed lockset of a padlock-- if a person wants to get into that house, they can literally get in just as fast as they can with a key. Then they started having us put up plywood over the doors and windows-- it would slow them down a bit but they were still getting in. Now they use this system of metal screens and a special coded steel door for access. The first few we did like that, the stuff was secure. Then they evolved... they get through that crap in seconds now. In addition, they had us install steel cages embedded in a concrete pad to protect the AC condenser units. The first ones lasted a couple weeks. Now they don't make it through the night.

    If they want in, they will get in. It may slow them down some, but them getting in is inevitable. All that money pissed away on property security was pissed away in vain. Our border is exactly the same. What will stop them? Having humans there, watching the place. Taking away the incentives that are motivating them to want to get in, in the first place.

    I used to think a big, continuous border wall would do the trick. From the experience of senior field agents who have been there and done that, plus my own experiences, I have had to look at the realities and change my mind.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    If a few of those thieves happened to get dropped in their tracks by gunfire from some "unknown" location, I wonder how long it would take for the word to get around that the reward isn't worth the risk?
    :uhm:
    Jerry
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    We do give Mexico all kinds of aid, so withholding the aid would work. Perhaps tell them if they don't pay for the wall, they won't be getting any free money anymore.

    Amen and Amen and Amen! But to be totally honest, I really don't care who pays for it. If WE have to pay for it, so what? Let's get on with the program, build that wall. The wall is more than a physical entity or barrier. It means something. It tells the world we are tired of people coming here illegally without our permission and we are doing something to prevent it from ever happening again. Build the Freaking Damn Wall! Do it, don't look back! Just do it!!!

    We will either pay for it by giving everything away to illegals in the form of benefits they didn't earn or we will pay for the wall. Get on with it. I want a wall. That's my opinion anyway.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    Here's another idea. How about a border division of the National Guard or maybe even a reserve Border Patrol, that has less strenuous physical requirements, so that citizens can undergo fairly simple training and then work 'X' many days a year to patrol in vehicles or on horseback, and report to the Border Patrol, or back them up in some of the loneliest places - more of an auxiliary than an enforcement arm, but with enough training to help in a pinch. They could carry good radios, with GPS, report in at regular intervals, and avoid contact with illegals, unless absolutely necessary.

    Even middle-aged people in good health could be very helpful in areas that just need to be monitored better. My county sheriff used reserves to very good effect, several years ago. They just showed up, in remote areas, and told the dispatcher how many folks to send, and how fast. They had long guns in their pickups, if needed, but mostly they just stayed out of any fracas. They didn't even have any training, beyond what they witnessed the real cops doing, on the job.
    There may be some merit to that. I have no idea. What I do know is that it is a much better idea than ANY of our elected officials are talking about.

    You have Team Red and their media apparatus feeding a bunch of crap into the minds of their loyalists and have them convinced that anyone who doesn't conform to their dogma is an enemy of the country when in fact they are flat out wrong and it has nothing to do with the best interests of our country.

    You have Team Blue with their media apparatus feeding a bunch of crap into the minds of their loyalists of and have them convinced that anyone who doesn't conform to their dogma is an enemy of the country when in fact they are flat out wrong and it has nothing to do with the best interests of our country.

    And while they are both dead wrong and busy pointing fingers at each other and demonizing the opposing party, our country goes to hell.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    We will either pay for it by giving everything away to illegals in the form of benefits they didn't earn or we will pay for the wall. Get on with it. I want a wall. That's my opinion anyway.
    My opinion is that with or without a wall, unless we approach the situation differently, we are going to be paying for those benefits regardless. They are going to get through. The difference is we either pay for the benefits, or the benefits and the wall.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
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