I use XXXX for home defense to prevent overpenetration...

breamfisher

Fellow shoots drywall sheets with .22 LR: Velocitor and Stinger to see how may walls it will penetrate.

Out of a pistol he got through 4 -5 walls, out of a rifle 5 walls. .22 LR. "Weak ammo."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pSVn7ozXTQ

Makes you think...

breamfisher

9mm 115 gr. went through 10 panels. That equals 5 walls. And it penetrated farther into the ballistics gel backer than a .223 fired during the same test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0qgQoej5zE

Point to posting these videos is: if you're worried about over-penetration, pretty much anything will do it.

bisley

I would like to see a test where they shoot through 18 inches of ballistic gel with drywall behind it, since I've argued with the over-penetration 'experts' that it's mostly a moot point, if any of their rounds miss the target. I'm guessing that most SD ammo will be spent by the time it penetrates a human torso and a couple of sheets of drywall.

breamfisher

bisley wrote: »

I would like to see a test where they shoot through 18 inches of ballistic gel with drywall behind it, since I've argued with the over-penetration 'experts' that it's mostly a moot point, if any of their rounds miss the target. I'm guessing that most SD ammo will be spent by the time it penetrates a human torso and a couple of sheets of drywall.

I think you're exactly right. But I've also heard/read several folks say they use certain loads because "if I miss, I'm less likely to get over-penetration" or some such comments. I happened to stumble upon this.

I have read that the frangibles do minimize the issue, but I've read of other issues...

Zee

There is a reason (many actually) that most entry teams have switched to the .223 Rem.

The 9mm MP5 is soooooooo, 90s.

breamfisher

I think it was Clint Smith who ran through a shoot house with a 9mm, .45, and a .223 and shot targets and intentionally missed the targets. He used ball and duty ammo.

The results favored the rifle rounds.

Teach

I seem to remember that 4-X products were supposed to make penetration easier- - - - -back when that made a difference!
:uhm::jester:
Jerry

zorba

Wow. Of course I have to ask how many walls would a .270 go through - but this test is impressive. I would have guessed 2 or 3 (wall equivalents).

Varmintmist

I was going to say, marriage.

Big Chief

I use sometimes YYYY and ZZZZ you CCCC........................whatever pleases me me me me................he he he he...............:tooth:

Michakav

I use .357 because I have lathe and plaster with an aggregate base coat...:guns:

NN

bisley wrote: »

I would like to see a test where they shoot through 18 inches of ballistic gel with drywall behind it, since I've argued with the over-penetration 'experts' that it's mostly a moot point, if any of their rounds miss the target. I'm guessing that most SD ammo will be spent by the time it penetrates a human torso and a couple of sheets of drywall.

The average BG is probably closer to 11.5 to 12 inches thick, ; but, I expect your correct.

Eli

cpj wrote: »

Since you stole my comment, I'll correct you. Marriage doesn't prevent over penetration, it prevents ALL penetration.

When someone is murdered the very first suspect is ALWAYS the spouse...and that says pretty much all there is to say about marriage.

10canyon53

If you have ever wondered what is the best thing to use for home defense vs. nekked chickens, this is a must watch video. :jester:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q89Xrte2NmE

It does drive home the difference in energy transfer of 9MM vs. .223 vs. 12 gauge 00 buck.

breamfisher

...not really. His "energy transfer" videos use pretty poor replication and poor metrics of performance. Look at his site, and you'll see the videos are more about how can we make a "cool" video rather than actual testing.

Here's some other threads where he's discussed his "tests" and methodologies.
http://forums.gunsandammo.com/showthread.php?30098-9mm-vs-40-vs-45-the-cinder-block-test

http://forums.gunsandammo.com/showthread.php?30071-9mm-40-and-45acp-on-Pigs-Heads

Spk

breamfisher wrote: »

...not really. His "energy transfer" videos use pretty poor replication and poor metrics of performance. Look at his site, and you'll see the videos are more about how can we make a "cool" video rather than actual testing....

And why are chickens always 'nekkid' in these videos? Shouldn't they be wearing some clothes like in the wild?

bisley

Mythbusters used to do stuff like this with pigs, which probably emulates a human quite a bit closer, but they neglected to differentiate between the ammo, i.e. you never knew if they were using SD type hollowpoints, or FMJ, which makes a lot of difference.

10canyon53

I never said anything about energy transfer to a human body....just nekked chickens.

breamfisher

bisley wrote: »

Mythbusters used to do stuff like this with pigs, which probably emulates a human quite a bit closer, but they neglected to differentiate between the ammo, i.e. you never knew if they were using SD type hollowpoints, or FMJ, which makes a lot of difference.

Pigs are better, if nothing else because their torso's kinda sorta close to a human's. Better, especially, if you're using expanding ammo because that stuff takes time to expand...

breamfisher

10canyon53 wrote: »

I never said anything about energy transfer to a human body....just nekked chickens.

And his methodology doesn't demonstrate "energy transfer" well because the bullets may or may not just pass through the body before upsetting/expanding, and WHERE he hits the target can also affect perceived energy transfer.

NCFUBAR

To me this is like the handgun capacity or extra mag topic ... do what makes you feel best for your situation. I don’t think as much about how a round will penetrate as much as the trajectory I am send it on. I try to think about what is behind the target and actually want to shoot more kneeling with an upward trajectory to put the round rising for any over penetrating strays.

breamfisher

My point in posting the videos was more to show that if you're worried about over penetration if you miss.... pretty much anything will do it. Maybe a .22 CB cap, but otherwise you'll get pass-throughs in drywall walls.

10canyon53

breamfisher wrote: »

And his methodology doesn't demonstrate "energy transfer" well because the bullets may or may not just pass through the body before upsetting/expanding, and WHERE he hits the target can also affect perceived energy transfer.

Surely you didn't take my comments seriously? For future reference, any postings that mention "nekked chickens" were written "tongue in cheek". :roll2:

I watched his video where he compares the "penetration" of 9MM vs. .223 vs. 12 gauge 00 buck by standing five pieces of 2x4 up next to each other (not even nailed down) and shoots them........that was kind of pointless. All he proved was that he could knock them over......wait....maybe he didn't even prove that. He missed his first shot with the AR-15 and didn't even realize it. :rotflmao:

breamfisher

I wonder if he's an actual "academy?" In other words: does he actually train people.

I hope not. His videos are slightly entertaining, but as Dan Chamberlain pointed out in one of the threads I referenced, you learn as much or more about energy transfer by shooting steel plats.

10canyon53

breamfisher wrote: »

I wonder if he's an actual "academy?"

I seriously doubt it. He appears to be a one man show with a cell phone video camera and a YouTube channel.

Hmmm.......maybe I could start my own "academy" and teach people how to blow up watermelons with 12 gauge slugs? I have a GoPro and a VEPR-12, that ought to get me enough followers to make me feel important. :jester:

Spk

10canyon53 wrote: »

I seriously doubt it. He appears to be a one man show with a cell phone video camera and a YouTube channel.

Hmmm.......maybe I could start my own "academy" and teach people how to blow up watermelons with 12 gauge slugs? I have a GoPro and a VEPR-12, that ought to get me enough followers to make me feel important. :jester:

Knowledge is easy and perhaps this guy doesn't even have that but what you really need is Showmanship, dancing bear meets carnival barker type stuff.

Maybe even put a scarf and some pants on those nekked chickens because Maybe you could hang the nekked chickens from strings and we could really study the momentum exchange for some backyard science.

You'll be a Youtube guru!

:worthy:

10canyon53

Hmmm........ I think maybe I will have someone lob frozen turkeys at me and I will analyze what is the best zombie goose defense round. :jester: I am sure I would get at least one subscriber.....from Nebraska. I don't have a goose blind in a frozen cornfield to defend, but maybe I could simulate one with a beach towel and a sand dune.

Spk

10canyon53 wrote: »

Hmmm........ I think maybe I will have someone lob frozen turkeys at me and I will analyze what is the best zombie goose defense round. :jester: I am sure I would get at least one subscriber.....from Nebraska. I don't have a goose blind in a frozen cornfield to defend, but maybe I could simulate one with a beach towel and a sand dune.

How about nekked chicken on a bungee cord to test the 21 foot rule. Armed nekked chicken with a knife vs. armed citizen.

Linefinder

A .410 shotgun loaded with #6 shot will go through 5/8" sheetrock, the 4" dimension of a pine 2x4, and wood exterior siding. At a range of about 8'.

After that, it'll leave one heckuva splat mark in a Live Oak a dozen feet behind the exterior wall. (Thank god for suitable, though unintentional, backstops).

And indoors, even a small shotgun knocks your ears out of commission upon detonation. And "smokeless"?...forget that. You'll likely not see anything clearly above your belt.

You can learn a lot by your own mistakes that YouTube doesn't cover.

Not that I recommend this as a method of training, but I have fired a shotgun indoors and hope I never do again. But at least I know what to expect. Anything is going to over penetrate if you miss.

That said, if you have to repell boarders, any shotgun is pretty much better than anything else.

Mike

10canyon53

Spk wrote: »

How about nekked chicken on a bungee cord to test the 21 foot rule. Armed nekked chicken with a knife vs. armed citizen.

Now you are getting my creative juices flowing! How about testing the best ammo for turning Kung Fu Chicken into Kung Pow Chicken? I think maybe a custom 12 gauge load with miniature Ginsu knives and some dragon's breath.......:rotflmao:

zorba

10canyon53 wrote: »

Now you are getting my creative juices flowing! How about testing the best ammo for turning Kung Fu Chicken into Kung Pow Chicken? I think maybe a custom 12 gauge load with miniature Ginsu knives and some dragon's breath.......:rotflmao:

Here ya go: http://www.sabotdesigns.com/005.html