Remington Outdoor Group Files Bankruptcy Protection

NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior MemberPosts: 4,270 Senior Member
https://money.usnews.com/investing/news/articles/2018-02-08/exclusive-us-gunmaker-remington-seeks-financing-to-file-for-bankruptcy-sources?src=usn_fb
Remington Outdoor Company Inc, one of the largest U.S. makers of firearms, has reached out to banks and credit investment funds in search of financing that will allow it to file for bankruptcy, people familiar with the matter said on Thursday.

The move comes as Remington reached a forbearance agreement with its creditors this week following a missed coupon payment on its debt, the sources said. The company has been working with investment bank Lazard Ltd on options to restructure its $950 million debt pile, Reuters reported last month.

Remington is seeking debtor-in-possession financing that will allow it to fund is operations once it files for bankruptcy, the sources said. The size of the financing and timing of Remington's bankruptcy plans could not be learned.

Hate it for the employees but the the bean counters and executive level just didn’t get it ...
“The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
- George Orwell
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Replies

  • Uncle FesterUncle Fester Senior Member Posts: 992 Senior Member
    That trigger recall settlement is probably out the window.

    Btw - thier sales fell because they have QC issues that make Chinese knockoffs look good.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,132 Senior Member
    That trigger recall settlement is probably out the window.

    Btw - thier sales fell because they have QC issues that make Chinese knockoffs look good.

    I think the Trigger recall is the straw that broke the camel's back. I don't see how they can throw it out the window.

    They've been denying there was a problem for 60 years and in the face of the designer who offered to design another trigger. It finally came full round and bit them on the ass. I hope this doesn't bring about their end, because there's too many great firearms involved, along with some great American Traditions. But I think it was like what I saw at the plant I worked at. Those in charge at the moment knew they figured they'd be dead and gone by the time the :fan: so they acted like no problem. Well in the end it always catches up. So here we are. When they decided to fix the problem it costs them too much.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,229 Senior Member
    I am sure that their sorry attempts at the pistol market didn't help.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,248 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    When they decided to fix the problem it costs them too much.

    They're not the first one to do that! GM thought that smaller fuel efficient cars were just a fad and they refused to retool to build them and when they got spanked by the Japanese automakers and gave in, it cost a heck of a lot more to retool.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,910 Senior Member
    Maybe I should buy an R51, just to say I have one!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,132 Senior Member
    Hell, they could have contracted the triggers out to Timney and still come out ahead of having to recall them all.

    And had a much better trigger and a great selling point.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • JKPJKP Senior Member Posts: 1,757 Senior Member
    Bankruptcy doesn't mean they're going away. Hopefully the company will emerge stronger with better products.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,132 Senior Member
    JKP wrote: »
    Bankruptcy doesn't mean they're going away. Hopefully the company will emerge stronger with better products.

    That's what I'm hoping. But they have a lot of sin to absolve, to say nothing of a few thousand law suits to settle.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,573 Senior Member
    A company doesn't wake up one morning and say, "OMG, we're bankrupt!" The trend and direction is revealed long before. And when a company refuses to recognize reality, broom the leadership, and start over with fresh minds, it deserves to go under, taking its management with it. I dearly hope that any bailout offered to Remington includes a general massacre of everyone at the middle management level and above, and a complete break with Ilion, NY, and the United Mine Workers Union.
  • Uncle FesterUncle Fester Senior Member Posts: 992 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    I think the Trigger recall is the straw that broke the camel's back. I don't see how they can throw it out the window.

    They've been denying there was a problem for 60 years and in the face of the designer who offered to design another trigger. It finally came full round and bit them on the ass. I hope this doesn't bring about their end, because there's too many great firearms involved, along with some great American Traditions. But I think it was like what I saw at the plant I worked at. Those in charge at the moment knew they figured they'd be dead and gone by the time the :fan: so they acted like no problem. Well in the end it always catches up. So here we are. When they decided to fix the problem it costs them too much.

    It is my understanding that the settlement is still on appeal. If so, a bankruptcy filing would trigger an Automatic Stay of all pending lawsuits against it.

    Ultimately, a bankruptcy filing is probably going to negatively impact all of Remington’s unsecured creditors including the litigants.

    It will be interesting if the post-bankruptcy owners (who are almost certainly going to be Remington’s current secured creditors) will decide that honoring the settlement and warranties is good business or not.

    When GM failed, the New GM was largely able to push pre-bankruptcy product liability claims to OldCo.

    https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2015/02/13/gm-heading-back-bankruptcy-court/23394985/
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,248 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    A company doesn't wake up one morning and say, "OMG, we're bankrupt!" The trend and direction is revealed long before. And when a company refuses to recognize reality, broom the leadership, and start over with fresh minds, it deserves to go under, taking its management with it. I dearly hope that any bailout offered to Remington includes a general massacre of everyone at the middle management level and above, and a complete break with Ilion, NY, and the United Mine Workers Union.

    Every bit of this is true. To run a gun company successfully, you have to know and understand guns and shooters. Accountants need not apply. Look at how Henry was resurrected from the ashes.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • Uncle FesterUncle Fester Senior Member Posts: 992 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    A company doesn't wake up one morning and say, "OMG, we're bankrupt!" The trend and direction is revealed long before. And when a company refuses to recognize reality, broom the leadership, and start over with fresh minds, it deserves to go under, taking its management with it. I dearly hope that any bailout offered to Remington includes a general massacre of everyone at the middle management level and above, and a complete break with Ilion, NY, and the United Mine Workers Union.

    While a lot of people deserve blame, Cerberus’ purchase of Remington doomed them.

    2007 - “Remington Arms Co. Inc. has agreed to be acquired by private equity firm Cerberus Capital Management LP for $370 million. The purchase priced includes $118 million in cash as well as the assumption of $252 million of debt, including a revolving credit line and subordinated notes.”

    While the press release mentions a $118m cash payment, most of that came from debt. Furthermore, by 2017, they were saddled with nearly $1B in debts as Cerberus was paid back its initial investment (and then some).

    https://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/12/09/cerberus-may-offer-divestment-in-firearms/

    “The Freedom Group’s owner, which had already earned a profit from its investment through a dividend payment, had been pushing for what some bidders deemed a high valuation of the company. However, some people briefed on the sales process argued that the expected price was based on a multiple of earnings lower than what some of the gun maker’s peers commanded in the public markets.”
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 844 Senior Member
    When a management company buys another company they will suck it dry and then unload it. That is what management companies do and how they make their money.
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 319 Member
    Chrysler is a good example of what happens when you are purchased for your assets alone. Chrysler has been owned by at least three foreign entities that so far have taken all they could before dumping them on the next sucker.

    Until Remington is owned by a firearms company that knows how to properly run a firearms company they will have bean counter issues to deal with.
  • jbohiojbohio Senior Member Posts: 5,403 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    Every bit of this is true. To run a gun company successfully, you have to know and understand guns and shooters. Accountants need not apply. Look at how Henry was resurrected from the ashes.

    There you go.
    They are so out of touch with today's gun owners, it's crazy.
    I LOVE Remington guns....grew up on them. Have a safe full of them. I buy them frequently. Used.
    I haven't bought a new one in at least 10 years.

    How did they miss the AR craze so badly? Unbelievable. They catalog ONE AR 15, at $1199 msrp.
  • bellcatbellcat Senior Member Posts: 1,304 Senior Member
    NCFUBAR wrote: »
    https://money.usnews.com/investing/news/articles/2018-02-08/exclusive-us-gunmaker-remington-seeks-financing-to-file-for-bankruptcy-sources?src=usn_fb



    Hate it for the employees but the the bean counters and executive level just didn’t get it ...


    They certainly have been sliding!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    "Kindness is the language the deaf can hear and the blind can see." Mark Twain
  • 104RFAST104RFAST Senior Member Posts: 1,232 Senior Member
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Moderator Posts: 27,037 Senior Member
    That trigger recall settlement is probably out the window.

    Btw - thier sales fell because they have QC issues that make Chinese knockoffs look good.
    I'd love to see some actual proof of that. While some parts of their rifles have been "cheapened" to keep costs down, every Remington 700 I've fired for years has been sub-MOA out of the box. Their new SPS stocks are much better than the old ones and their triggers while not Jewells are not bad for a run of the mill hunting rig. I know Marlin went through some moving pains but Remington in general still builds great rifles.

    And yes the trigger recall settlement will probably disappear with the bankruptcy re-structuring.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,358 Senior Member
    104RFAST wrote: »

    Not sure that JP Morgan will be a better owner.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 38,291 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I'd love to see some actual proof of that. While some parts of their rifles have been "cheapened" to keep costs down, every Remington 700 I've fired for years has been sub-MOA out of the box. Their new SPS stocks are much better than the old ones and their triggers while not Jewells are not bad for a run of the mill hunting rig. I know Marlin went through some moving pains but Remington in general still builds great rifles.

    And yes the trigger recall settlement will probably disappear with the bankruptcy re-structuring.
    I wouldn't say that a Chinese knock off is better, but big greens quality of late SUCKS. accuracy and function? Still there. Fit and finish? Hardly. Which doesn't totally bother me, as long as the price reflects it. Wasn't too long ago I handled one of their fancier models, mountain rifle maybe, can't recall other than it was over 1200 bucks. When a $400 Howa has a better fit and feel than than a $1200 Remington, something's wrong.
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,132 Senior Member
    10canyon53 wrote: »
    When a management company buys another company they will suck it dry and then unload it. That is what management companies do and how they make their money.

    Yep right on.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,132 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    I wouldn't say that a Chinese knock off is better, but big greens quality of late SUCKS. accuracy and function? Still there. Fit and finish? Hardly. Which doesn't totally bother me, as long as the price reflects it. Wasn't too long ago I handled one of their fancier models, mountain rifle maybe, can't recall other than it was over 1200 bucks. When a $400 Howa has a better fit and feel than than a $1200 Remington, something's wrong.

    I agree cpj. If they make them cut rate I would probably buy some of their junk as long as t was still accurate and spruce it up a bit.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,132 Senior Member
    That trigger recall settlement is probably out the window.

    Btw - thier sales fell because they have QC issues that make Chinese knockoffs look good.

    I agree with cpj on this. Remington and Savage both designed production rifles that would compete in sales and and had design features that made them inherently accurate. Neither one has the aesthetics of a pre-64 Model 70, but either one with good loads and some simple tweeking will beat it in the accuracy department. While Remingtons have suffered fit and finish, they're still accurate or at least potentially. Even some out of the box Savages need some tweeking nowadays.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Uncle FesterUncle Fester Senior Member Posts: 992 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    I agree with cpj on this. Remington and Savage both designed production rifles that would compete in sales and and had design features that made them inherently accurate. Neither one has the aesthetics of a pre-64 Model 70, but either one with good loads and some simple tweeking will beat it in the accuracy department. While Remingtons have suffered fit and finish, they're still accurate or at least potentially. Even some out of the box Savages need some tweeking nowadays.

    When I tried to by a Marlin 45-70, it looked like the $700+ Rifle had been assembled by monkeys and inspected by Mr Magoo. Although they are starting to look better, they QC is still poor for the price they charge. Then the R51 fiasco happened (twice).

    Even when I have had the opportunity to get good deals on Remington’s on sale, I moved my business to other companies.
  • Uncle FesterUncle Fester Senior Member Posts: 992 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    Not sure that JP Morgan will be a better owner.

    The good news: lenders who take over companies in deals like this usually try to find a new owner quickly. With $700m in debts wiped off the books, Remington no longer needs to pay $ millions per year to service that debt.

    Hopefully, someone who knows manufacturing takes over soon.
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Moderator Posts: 27,037 Senior Member
    When I tried to by a Marlin 45-70, it looked like the $700+ Rifle had been assembled by monkeys and inspected by Mr Magoo. Although they are starting to look better, they QC is still poor for the price they charge. Then the R51 fiasco happened (twice).

    Even when I have had the opportunity to get good deals on Remington’s on sale, I moved my business to other companies.

    That I will agree on and as I said Remington went through a rough time moving the Marlin factory, but Chinese knock-offs is pretty harsh on not quite right. The pricing they charge for a lever action Marlin has come down substantially. I just saw a .336 in 30-30 in the $300s.

    But just like any other gun manufacturer nowadays, the feel of firearms that are made out of cast/MIM/plastic/stamped parts will NEVER equal the hand fitted forged guns of yesterday. A modern S&W feels cheap in comparison to a 1960s example. BUT heck, who here is willing to pay what it takes to hand fit forged steel anymore, and those "cheap guns" shoot better than the ones from 50 years ago. So who's up for a $2,000 Remington 700 or a $2,500 S&W 29? That market does not exist in any measurable quantity.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,132 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    That I will agree on and as I said Remington went through a rough time moving the Marlin factory, but Chinese knock-offs is pretty harsh on not quite right. The pricing they charge for a lever action Marlin has come down substantially. I just saw a .336 in 30-30 in the $300s.

    But just like any other gun manufacturer nowadays, the feel of firearms that are made out of cast/MIM/plastic/stamped parts will NEVER equal the hand fitted forged guns of yesterday. A modern S&W feels cheap in comparison to a 1960s example. BUT heck, who here is willing to pay what it takes to hand fit forged steel anymore, and those "cheap guns" shoot better than the ones from 50 years ago. So who's up for a $2,000 Remington 700 or a $2,500 S&W 29? That market does not exist in any measurable quantity.

    As usual you have a point. As long as i can find Model 700s for under $400 in the ADL Synthetic configuration I'll keep buying them as needed. It is one Pig that looks good in lipstick.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,358 Senior Member
    The good news: lenders who take over companies in deals like this usually try to find a new owner quickly. With $700m in debts wiped off the books, Remington no longer needs to pay $ millions per year to service that debt.

    Hopefully, someone who knows manufacturing takes over soon.

    Hopefully they will sell H&R/ NEF to someone that will start making the Handi-Rifles again.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • shootbrownelkshootbrownelk Senior Member Posts: 2,000 Senior Member
    jbohio wrote: »
    There you go.
    They are so out of touch with today's gun owners, it's crazy.
    I LOVE Remington guns....grew up on them. Have a safe full of them. I buy them frequently. Used.
    I haven't bought a new one in at least 10 years.

    How did they miss the AR craze so badly? Unbelievable. They catalog ONE AR 15, at $1199 msrp.
    Remington managed to chamber their AR in the instant flop, the 30 AR Remington. And they priced it way too high.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 23,281 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    Hopefully they will sell H&R/ NEF to someone that will start making the Handi-Rifles AND SHOTGUNS again.

    FIFY :tooth: I NEED a couple or three shotguns in 20 and 12 gauge for donor actions for rifle cartridges they never have offered in the Handi-Rifles.
    I may be a Deplorable, but at least I'm not a Liberal!!!



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