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At Some Point...

DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior MemberPosts: 3,395 Senior Member

You realize of course, that at some point, Gun owners are going to have to say, "No More." What we have to decide, is do we do so while we still have the means to enforce it? 

You realize, of course, that when we finally say, "No More," it will have to be with guns in our hands. This is not a conspiracy theory. It's historically a given.

It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
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Replies

  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,670 Senior Member
    It seems to me that the only way to resist confiscation is with overwhelming force.....and at that point, what does the government do?
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,395 Senior Member
    The government will do whatever it takes to remove the threat to their existence. What we have to hope is, enough of the military will decide that they came from the people, they represent the people, and that they aren't and never have been puppets.

    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 10,914 Senior Member
    edited April 2018 #4
    Knock knock, yes?, were here to confiscate your guns, while reaching for phone to call layer, bang bang he was reaching for his gun.  Next house......
    How many times before it makes the liberal news run by those that support gun grabbing?

    I think it would be hard for any of us to shoot a cop or military member.

    Of course how many Nazis said they were following orders?
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    It will be a bloody mess no matter how you slice it if confiscation laws were passed. And not for the reason you might think. The military members swore an oath to the Constitution as do all sworn officers in LE. Some will go along with confiscation, and some will honor their oath. 'Friendly fire' accidents will probably be quite common with the victims being those that violate their sworn oath. Once the first few gun owners get gunned down, the ball will be rolling and out of control. Being in ANY uniform and out and about will be waving the red flag in front of the enraged bull.

    This will be by no means universal across the U.S. Some areas have been predisposed to follow the orders due to their brainwashing by their 'betters' and will roll over. Other areas will be like a bunch of pissed off porcupines and honey badgers just waiting and well prepared for something to attack. And don't discount some states calling up their national guards to violently resist the Feds/U.S. military coming in to do the confiscation.

    With no clear lines of who is on which side, it could easily degenerate into guerilla warfare on a nearly national scale. That equals easy pickings days for criminals of all stripes.

    It will take a few more dumbed down generations for that confiscation thing to be met with only small pockets of resistance. Now would not be a good time for that, at all.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,534 Senior Member
    tennmike said:
    It will be a bloody mess no matter how you slice it if confiscation laws were passed. And not for the reason you might think. The military members swore an oath to the Constitution as do all sworn officers in LE. Some will go along with confiscation, and some will honor their oath. 'Friendly fire' accidents will probably be quite common with the victims being those that violate their sworn oath. Once the first few gun owners get gunned down, the ball will be rolling and out of control. Being in ANY uniform and out and about will be waving the red flag in front of the enraged bull.

    This will be by no means universal across the U.S. Some areas have been predisposed to follow the orders due to their brainwashing by their 'betters' and will roll over. Other areas will be like a bunch of pissed off porcupines and honey badgers just waiting and well prepared for something to attack. And don't discount some states calling up their national guards to violently resist the Feds/U.S. military coming in to do the confiscation.

    With no clear lines of who is on which side, it could easily degenerate into guerilla warfare on a nearly national scale. That equals easy pickings days for criminals of all stripes.

    It will take a few more dumbed down generations for that confiscation thing to be met with only small pockets of resistance. Now would not be a good time for that, at all.


    Not that I advocate for subversion, Insurrection, or anarchy. But, I just don't see it going down like that. The same gun owners that rubber stamp these politicians into office, are the same ones that will roll over and go with it. And, if there is one thing I have learned since being in the Army - Everyone wants to be a Cowboy, until it is time to Cowboy up.

    I think it will be small pockets from the start and it will end that way.

    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    Diver43 said:
    Of course how many Nazis said they were following orders?

    First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Socialist.

    Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.


    Niemöller




  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,395 Senior Member
    If the USA devolves into the Tennmike scenario, Mexico will invade, and probably China. 

    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,749 Senior Member
    edited April 2018 #9
    The government in conjunction and cooperation with financial markets already control the currency of trade, both domestic and foreign. They control the amount, the value, and effectively what it is traded for. This is partially why Woodrow Wilson was hornswaggled into creating the Federal Reserve. They don't need our guns, but if they wanted them,  they could compell us to forfeit them as easily as they compell us to pay income tax. The power of the purse reigns supreme.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,660 Senior Member
    Wilson was the beginning of the problem.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • Old RonOld Ron Senior Member Posts: 4,265 Senior Member
    Every day I am so happy I have no guns for them to take !
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,610 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    Wilson was the beginning of the problem.
    That might be where you could trace the legislative roots to, but the man himself is (was) merely a symptom of the greater problem.  As a race, humans are far too willing to force their own "good ideas" on others... at the point of a spear, if necessary.   All in the quest for the "greater good".
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • timctimc Senior Member Posts: 6,684 Senior Member
    If the USA devolves into the Tennmike scenario, Mexico will invade, and probably China. 

    I hate to break it to you brother but Mexico has already invaded!
    timc - formerly known as timc on the last G&A forum and timc on the G&A forum before that and the G&A forum before that.....
    AKA: Former Founding Member
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    The government in conjunction and cooperation with financial markets already control the currency of trade, both domestic and foreign. They control the amount, the value, and effectively what it is traded for. This is partially why Woodrow Wilson was hornswaggled into creating the Federal Reserve. They don't need our guns, but if they wanted them,  they could compell us to forfeit them as easily as they compell us to pay income tax. The power of the purse reigns supreme.
    tennmike said:
    It will be a bloody mess no matter how you slice it if confiscation laws were passed. And not for the reason you might think. The military members swore an oath to the Constitution as do all sworn officers in LE. Some will go along with confiscation, and some will honor their oath. 'Friendly fire' accidents will probably be quite common with the victims being those that violate their sworn oath. Once the first few gun owners get gunned down, the ball will be rolling and out of control. Being in ANY uniform and out and about will be waving the red flag in front of the enraged bull.

    This will be by no means universal across the U.S. Some areas have been predisposed to follow the orders due to their brainwashing by their 'betters' and will roll over. Other areas will be like a bunch of pissed off porcupines and honey badgers just waiting and well prepared for something to attack. And don't discount some states calling up their national guards to violently resist the Feds/U.S. military coming in to do the confiscation.

    With no clear lines of who is on which side, it could easily degenerate into guerilla warfare on a nearly national scale. That equals easy pickings days for criminals of all stripes.

    It will take a few more dumbed down generations for that confiscation thing to be met with only small pockets of resistance. Now would not be a good time for that, at all.


    Not that I advocate for subversion, Insurrection, or anarchy. But, I just don't see it going down like that. The same gun owners that rubber stamp these politicians into office, are the same ones that will roll over and go with it. And, if there is one thing I have learned since being in the Army - Everyone wants to be a Cowboy, until it is time to Cowboy up.

    I think it will be small pockets from the start and it will end that way.

    Maybe... There's the numbers game to consider. Let's say there are 50 million gun owners. What if just one percent decides to "live free or die"? That's 500,000 guerrillas running around doing guerrilla shtuff. How many have military training?  I don't mean openly shooting but other covert destruction.  Targeting facilities, vehicles, and dwellings of perceived enemies. The internet will provide a network of communication for like minded people before confiscation orders are given. Inner city gangs and other subversives will join the attack. 

    The government will try to clamp down hard and there will be collateral damage, fueling more insurgents. 

    Or...we just bury our guns and hope the next administration overturns the confiscation order. Similar to what we do with other issues every four years. 
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,534 Senior Member

    Cali - At face value 500,000 is a lot of people. After all the Active Duty Army force is only about 480K.

    But there are some factors going against that. That is 500,000 dispersed across the US, with larger pockets most likely in the Southeast and Western States (Wyoming, Idaho, SD). But the biggest problem I see is the same one that Herclitus laid out in the 100.

    I am fairly certain that I learned enough in time doing support that I could take a group of 20 people and wage low level conflict against a small geographical area (Atlanta, Augusta, Pensacola). But, without an active supply chain, a support network, and positive recruitment cycle we wouldn't last near as long as we would like.

    There is also the question of targeting. Where do we draw the line for targets and collateral damage. You would have to walk a very fine line of who and what your targets are.  You will have three groups of people: those for you, those against you, and those on the fence. You propaganda has to sway the people on the fence to your side, but it most likely that your targeting will push people off the fence to the other side. The smaller your support base within the center of gravity (population), the small your chances of success and survival.

    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,395 Senior Member
    Well, we're sorta hoping the majority in the military will do the "right" thing.

    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,128 Senior Member
    This conversation makes me wonder if there's another motive to the purpose of creating strong political divisions within the parties, and other groups of Americans. We are weakened when the social bonds are fractured and people start believing everyone else is the enemy.
    You are 100% spot on with this.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    Centermass556 brings up some good points regarding targeting and recruitment. That would have to be well coordinated.
    I look at it more as a WHAT is targeted rather than a WHO that is targeted. WHAT is the most vulnerable infrastructure that can easily be taken down, that takes a long time to replace, and affects almost the entire population? Electrical power grid is the answer. It is highly vulnerable to attack, easily kept down, and with specific targeting of vulnerable transmission and distribution assets would keep the government busier than a one legged cat attempting to cover up a pile on the interstate. The sheep of the population would be bleating incessantly for food, water, and a way to cook the food. Electrical power affects most EVERYTHING in our daily lives; we can't function without it. Removing it will cause extreme chaos within the first week.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,660 Senior Member
    Individualism is what built America!

    I think we have a semantics problem...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,128 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    Individualism is what built America!

    I think we have a semantics problem...
    Yep. Americans have a reputation all over the world as "rugged individualists", not some group think ditto heads. It is the reason for American Exceptionalism-- the idea that all these crazy ideas are tolerated, then get vetted on their merits due to our freedoms and capitalist society.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    Centermass - Cities will be the first targeted. The “live free or die” crews will likely go after the liberal enclaves. Destroy the major arteries, especially bridges. Then the power grid, including refineries. Looting will be widespread. Urban gangs will target police within the cities and the illegals will target everyone else. Like tennmike mentioned, the government will be very busy trying to bring in food, water, suppress criminal activity, etc. to the millions waiting for help. 

    Imagine Los Angeles without I-5, I-10, and I-15. Everything will have to be brought in by air or water. There will be limited fuel for distribution. Ugly business. 
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,534 Senior Member

    So you guys are highlighting my point. How we started to win Sadr City was by showing them that reason they didn't have power and water was because of the Insurgents. At that point, the Sadr group was no longer safe in that part of Baghdad. Informants were coming out of the wood work. As each phase line got power and water that we promised, the more of the city we won for good.

    unless the group has an IO and propaganda campaign that is going to sway those folks on the fence, as soon as you disrupt the lives of ever day folk and take away their comfort, the group will also loose the popular support of those on the fence and lose any empathy that was had in the side against the group.

    In an insurgency there is a fine line. Each side must understand the center of gravity is the people. It is always the support of the people. The existing government will try to maintain legitimacy and rule of law, the insurgents will want to prove the government is wrong and the insurgent way is the way forward. At some point, there will be a tipping point. The center of gravity will have enough of the fighting and will either decide for the current government or decide for the insurgents. As Cliché as it sounds, it is truly hearts and minds from the center of gravity that will be the determining factor.

    The group cannot indiscriminately target infrastructure without measuring the cost and the immediate second order effects.

    Lets take Ft Lauderdale. It is a liberal haven in Florida. The population there is already against the gun population. As soon as you take away their comfort and way of life, you lose any empathy you may have had in that city. You will only strengthen their view of what Gun owners are. You would have to completely take control of the city, within a two day span, with little to no impact to daily life. The strike would have to take the Mayor, the chief of police, and any other figure head that may oppose the group or launch a counter offensive. you would then have to protect the city from any outside force that would want to retake the city. You would have to quickly squash any criminal elements that think it is carte blanche with the gun friendly government. This would have to happen all over the US.

    Or, yes, you wage complete and total war. Watch the states dissolve into anarchy. Divide the country. Institute new government. Push out and segregate all liberals not wanting to conform. The knee jerk reaction is to send the liberal population  to NY or California. But again, what are the second, third, and fourth order effects from loosing those pieces of land. We are talking major infrastructure loses.

    Counting on the Military to come to the "right" side is a gamble. Again, I refer to the 100. Many of your support personnel - especially Combat service support- are Liberal. And, Support and Service Support personnel make up the bulk of the military. Then you have to account for all the deployed Personnel. Right now we have a military presence in more places than we states. Of the roughly 1.3 million active duty military members (all service components), roughly 20% of them are overseas. How do you get them home? That 20% can break you as soon as they mobilize back from Europe and Asia. You have to have their support.

    For those outsiders that are reading this, I say again, I do not advocate for an insurgency, insurrection, or any subversion. I am simply drawing out the scenario.

    Waging an effective Insurgency and Counter Insurgency is Warfare at the Graduate and Doctorate level. It is not something a group can accomplish off the cuff and hope to win. They make a statement, but in very short time they will help the grass grow.

    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,395 Senior Member
    Again, we are betting a significant number of military will do the right thing.
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,093 Senior Member
    Again, we are betting a significant number of military will do the right thing.
    That's a dangerous bet, in my book.

    My opinion is that the military personnel are as divided as the general population when it comes right down to it.
    They tow the line to their fellow service personnel and superiors, but when free to think and act as they will, they will show their true beliefs.

    In all honesty, I see it as a no-win situation. The only true question is one that each individual will have to decide for themselves, "Do I want to die fighting, or on my knees?"


    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,660 Senior Member
    Yep - very clear and I agree. And that's the way it should work - Goddess knows I've been "vetted" plenty of times, here and elsewhere.

    Now, don't forget to bring your veils and skirts to the shoot!  I'll have nail polish if you forget yours!



    As an aside, one of my dance sisters here is a nail tech and doesn't really like my "stage nails" - so I've started bringing my polish and letting her put it on so I don't have to "hear about it" - and yea, she does a better job than I do. So anyway, we were standing outside dance venue - a combination Lebanese restaurant and grocery store, yakking away while she was putting polish to my nails.

    Two guys walked up to go into the store half, and just stopped DEAD in their tracks, - the male Belly Dancer and nail polish just overloaded their brains. After a moment, I told them to "Get in line, she'll do your nails too!". They promptly went into the store, got whatever they'd come for, and literally RAN out!

    Geez guys, I don't bite...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,093 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    Geez guys, I don't bite...
    If you change your mind....

    Have you had your shots?????

    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    If it comes down to a low grade guerilla resistance, I think some of you are thinking civil war level exchange of fire. That isn't what would happen, really. More of the 'death by a thousand small cuts' is the way it would most likely play out.

    Comparing an insurgency here to one in Afghanistan leaves out one important factor or fact, depending on how you look at it. The Afghans are used to not having a pot to urinate in and a window to throw it out of; they can survive with very little and have done so for many centuries. The people of the U.S. are, how do I put this, for the most part spoiled rotten little crybabies that couldn't take care of themselves for a week. Cooking, gathering food and water, and general day to day living without the modern conveniences would be overwhelming to them.

    Just something else to think about.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,534 Senior Member
    tennmike said:
    If it comes down to a low grade guerilla resistance, I think some of you are thinking civil war level exchange of fire. That isn't what would happen, really. More of the 'death by a thousand small cuts' is the way it would most likely play out.

    Comparing an insurgency here to one in Afghanistan leaves out one important factor or fact, depending on how you look at it. The Afghans are used to not having a pot to urinate in and a window to throw it out of; they can survive with very little and have done so for many centuries. The people of the U.S. are, how do I put this, for the most part spoiled rotten little crybabies that couldn't take care of themselves for a week. Cooking, gathering food and water, and general day to day living without the modern conveniences would be overwhelming to them.

    Just something else to think about.


    I wouldn't call Afghanistan an Insurgency. The Government wants to think so, but in reality this is Anarchy at its finest. No one outside of Kabul could really give any care to the fact that Kabul claims to have a PM and full ministry. The rest of the country is divided into three main parts Narco-terrorist, Terrorist, and people trying to survive. All the while, we are trying to convince ourselves and the rest of the World Afghanistan has a viable government and is capable of being a sovereign state. I never truly believed in the corruption and existence of a Military Industrial Complex until I came back this time.

    Somehow I imagine this almost as the Lincoln Country War. Both sides are gonna claim to have legitimacy through the law and both sides will have some form of law on their side. I imagine the Anti-gun folks will cling to federal LEO and regulation while the pro-gun folks have State LEO and regulation. The Active Duty military is not going to shake out how some of you think. The National Guard most likely will and that gives access to armories. I really couldn't tell you the climate of Reserve formations.

    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,258 Senior Member
    I forget the exact number, but the actual active participants in the American Revolution on both sides of the issue totaled only around ten percent of the population, so there is an obvious amount of "which side has the will?" to be addressed.

    Jefferson said that "the beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it".  A certain truth there.  Just look at the reactions to the combined Clinton/Obama administrations.  In 1992, the AR-15 was only moderately interesting to anyone; now, they are probably the most numerous firearm mechanism in the nation, yet those are just a tiny fraction of the total number of firearms.  The question there, again, is "how many have the will?"

    I always marvel at the difficulty of finding parking at a CA gun show or at the Bass Pro Shop in Rancho Cucamonga.  The numbers are there, but yet again, "is the will?"

    On the other side, you have folks trying to take what others already have and want to keep.  The act of taking will get certain numbers of that side shot in the head.  The question at that point becomes "who has the will to sign up for that job?" - especially after the risk that goes along with it becomes more obvious.  It really is a matter of "Hmmm. . .I can leave these folks alone - which is all they really want - or I can kick their door in and get shot in the head.  Hmmmmm. . ."  The problem for the snowflakes is that they'll likely need someone else that's willing to do the deed for them, and they most likely aren't going to be snowflakes.   Pretty tough job for the recruiters.

    There is a fair amount of hand wringing over the notion that we, as individuals "are more about ourselves than we are about America".  I tend to think that this has ALWAYS been the case.  Not really a bad thing - Germany and Japan had their period of lots of folks being all about the homeland, and look where it got them.  Yamamoto's "sleeping giant" analogy is apt - we have always, since before 1776, only wanted to be left alone to our individual selves. . .and we will band together to kick the crap out of anyone who doesn't leave us alone. . . so that we can go back to staying out of each other's hair.  All it takes is the event that summons the will.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    Nobody has defined what this imaginary conflict is about. Is it about the federal government declaring gun ownership illegal, and then enforcing the law by force? Because, if it is, they will succeed, unless entire states bar their path. They will still have control of the media, and therefore will propagandize the public, and gain their nominal support, before beginning confiscation.

    On the other hand, if a state stands up to them, and does it on a Constitutional basis, using the courts and local law enforcement support for their people against federal confiscation teams, there is a chance that other states and some or all of the military will side with them. There is also a chance that a state will be able to broadcast its own messages, and appeal to other constituencies. At this point, it becomes a threat of civil war, which the public will be against, and a stalemate becomes possible, even likely.

    Without support at the state level, all resistance will be labeled anti-American militia hate groups, and the majority of the people can then pretend to be patriotic Americans that support the government. If it gets to that point, gun owners become traitors or criminals, and can be hunted down by any means necessary, and you have the same basic scenario that the 'Waco siege' was.
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