So the Supreme Court decides in favor of the baker...

Wambli SkaWambli Ska ModeratorPosts: 26,672 Senior Member
Jack Phillips who refused to bake a cake for a gay wedding because of his religious beliefs.  PLEASE no gay bashing or I will delete the offending comments.  But this is a landmark ruling with a vote 7-2 including several liberal voting for the baker and I think it merits discussion.  The court’s ruling implies that it is Ok for someone to deny commercial services to someone else based on religious grounds.  BTW I agree that for critical services that should be the case.  There are bakers everywhere so the gay couple could just have gone somewhere else, but decided to make a stand here, which they lost.  But how about critical services?
"Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton
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Replies

  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,953 Senior Member
    I know I should hide from this place....



    Anyway, define “critical service”.  


    Ill say in general, with most business/service, I’m 100% behind that persons right to tell another person to pound sand, for WHATEVER reason they choose. And “because I don’t want to” is a valid reason. 




    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 8,681 Senior Member
    That is for the owner. What about the employees?


    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 1,456 Senior Member
    NPR just reported here the place of origin for the case that Colorado state law makes it illegal to deny service based on sexual orientation, and that this case may go before the state supreme court.


    The courts will have to sort it out. I don't like litigious religioun any more than jim crow. 
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,558 Senior Member
    I have reservations about this - but I would have even had it gone the other way too. *shrug*

    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 22,978 Senior Member
    Well, for 'critical services' like EMERGENCY health care I think no one should be turned away for any reason. Same for police services, wrecker services, and roadside assistance. But for most everything else, a person's religious beliefs should be honored. And if a person does not wish to provide services for ANY reason not related to critical services, then they should be allowed NOT to participate. It's that 'Freedom of Association' thing, also.

    To FORCE by law someone to participate in something that is against their morals or religious beliefs is an act bordering on involuntary servitude EVEN IF one is being paid for the service performed.

    And I noticed that that the couple didn't try to get that cake baked at a Muslim owned bakery. I wonder why? The answer is that they wanted a big $$$$$ payout from a lawsuit instead of going to a bakery that would have been glad to take their money.

    When working in a gun store part time I refused to sell firearms to several people for good reason. ONE of the reasons was because one Anus Chapeau customer pointed the pistol at me and pulled the trigger. I had made sure to clear the pistol to ensure it was unloaded before handing it over; it was unloaded, but that wasn't the point. The point was that he pointed it at me and pulled the freakin' trigger! No Sale, you big dummy! Store owner backed me up 1,000%.
    If a Liberal throws a hand grenade at you, pick it up, pull the pin, and throw it back at them.



  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,211 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio said:
    That is for the owner. What about the employees?


    I own my company and when I owned a different company with employees, they didn't make decisions for me. I choose who I do work for, not my employees and I don't have to give customers or potential customers a reason for not wanting to take a call. 
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • Old RonOld Ron Senior Member Posts: 2,311 Senior Member
    Same here gib.......I make all the choices for my company . I never feel I have to give a reason for anything I decide. Now days keeping thoughts to yourself is a way to survive.
    On the court ruling today they were saying they will appeal the decision.  To who ?
    I always thought that was the last chance for anything.

  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Moderator Posts: 26,672 Senior Member
    That is one point I don't get from a few reports.  They just got a decision from SCOTUS.  Who the hell do they think they are appealing to???
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Moderator Posts: 26,672 Senior Member
    NPR just reported here the place of origin for the case that Colorado state law makes it illegal to deny service based on sexual orientation, and that this case may go before the state supreme court.


    The courts will have to sort it out. I don't like litigious religioun any more than jim crow. 
    A State Supreme Court can not overturn a SCOTUS decision.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Moderator Posts: 26,672 Senior Member

    cpj said:
    I know I should hide from this place....



    Anyway, define “critical service”.  


    Ill say in general, with most business/service, I’m 100% behind that persons right to tell another person to pound sand, for WHATEVER reason they choose. And “because I don’t want to” is a valid reason. 




    I agree that a private business should be able to make all decisions as to who they can provide services too but if the decision falls under discrimination then there is an issue.  For example, racial discrimination in restaurants in the 60s and such.  So while I agree with SCOTUS decision (not that it matters) I believe they just opened up a whole can of worms in the future by separating religion from race as one example.  Also which religious rules are we referring to?  ANY religion? Top five?...

    Critical is in the eye of the beholder, kind of like porn, can't define it but you know it when you see it.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 1,456 Senior Member
    edited June 5 #12
    INPR just reported here the place of origin for the case that Colorado state law makes it illegal to deny service based on sexual orientation, and that this case may go before the state supreme court.


    The courts will have to sort it out. I don't like litigious religioun any more than jim crow. 
    A State Supreme Court can not overturn a SCOTUS decision.
    They said may go before the state court. Likely the lawyers have see what they can squeeze from it all before anyone does anything, if anyone does anything.
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Moderator Posts: 26,672 Senior Member
    INPR just reported here the place of origin for the case that Colorado state law makes it illegal to deny service based on sexual orientation, and that this case may go before the state supreme court.


    The courts will have to sort it out. I don't like litigious religioun any more than jim crow. 
    A State Supreme Court can not overturn a SCOTUS decision.
    They said may go before the state court. Likely the lawyers have see what they can squeeze from it all before anyone does anything, if anyone does anything.
    Yeah they are probably looking for loopholes or some angle that SCOTUS missed in their decision.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,953 Senior Member

    cpj said:
    I know I should hide from this place....



    Anyway, define “critical service”.  


    Ill say in general, with most business/service, I’m 100% behind that persons right to tell another person to pound sand, for WHATEVER reason they choose. And “because I don’t want to” is a valid reason. 




    I agree that a private business should be able to make all decisions as to who they can provide services too but if the decision falls under discrimination then there is an issue.  For example, racial discrimination in restaurants in the 60s and such.  So while I agree with SCOTUS decision (not that it matters) I believe they just opened up a whole can of worms in the future by separating religion from race as one example.  Also which religious rules are we referring to?  ANY religion? Top five?...

    Critical is in the eye of the beholder, kind of like porn, can't define it but you know it when you see it.
    I’ll go as far as to say I’m fine with a business refusing to serve someone based on the color
    of their skin. Why? Ain’t my business. And, most importantly.....it will sort itself out in SHORT order. 
    Would I do that? Hell no.  If your check cashes or your money is green,  your personal life is your personal life. Get on with your bad self. 
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 31,707 Senior Member
    World is going to Hell in a Rainbow colored handbag.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 22,978 Senior Member
    A bakery making custom cakes is a custom business. So is installing HVAC; I seriously doubt that any two jobs are the same, even with cookie-cutter-on-the-outside houses in a development. The floor plans inside can differ. Making custom furniture is another one of a kind business. If the owner of the business doesn't want to take on a job then it is their business and none of the business of anyone else, including the potential customer.

    Discrimination is a lot like profiling when you think about it. ALL of y'all profile daily whether or not you're willing to admit it. If someone comes into a Porsche dealership looking like they came from a homeless camp do you think they will get the same level of service as someone walking in looking like they poop bank packets of $100 bills? I think not. WE ALL discriminate and profile; it's a survival instinct.

    The two people that sued the baker did so to push an agenda, and make a pile of money at the same time. There is no other explanation as to why they chose a Christian baker that was miles away, and they passed up many custom cake bakers that would have been glad to take their business. I see it for what it is; a blatant attempt to shove their agenda down someone's throat and gloat about it, or make a pile of money. Either outcome for them would be a win-win.

    The bottom line, for me, is that the couple that sued is lower than a pile of whale scat at the bottom of the Mariana Trench; they have no honor and are worthless wastes of skin. Forcing someone else to do what they are unwilling to do is dishonorable. They are epic air thieves. That's MY opinion, and I stand by it.
    If a Liberal throws a hand grenade at you, pick it up, pull the pin, and throw it back at them.



  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 1,456 Senior Member
    Let them eat cake?

    Sorry,
    Carry on.🎂
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,579 Senior Member
    Big Chief said:
    World is going to Hell in a Rainbow colored handbag.
    We are already there. Society has lost it's mind on what is acceptable anymore.

    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 6,133 Senior Member

    When I read this on the Fix ticker last night, I also read that there is a similar case pending before the court.  The pending case is about an Oregon (?) florist who refused to provide flowers for a gay wedding on religious principles.  I don't understand why the decision in the Colorado/baker case wouldn't include this one, but it doesn't.

    Apparently the baker case ruling is fairly narrow in scope, but that's all I know.

    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,558 Senior Member
    edited June 5 #20
    I think its a case of 2 (or more) wrongs don't make a right.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 31,707 Senior Member
    edited June 5 #21
    Guy was on TV earlier today. Said he was willing and offered to sell that gay couple any cake (generic) they wanted, but just wouldn't put any theme on one that he didn't believe in.

    Said the same for anything hateful toward them or anyone else or unpatriotic bashing America.  Also won't do any Halloween themed cakes.

    Said he lost 6 of his 10 employees, suffered business losses because of the lawsuit, but hoped to start making wedding cakes again now.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,953 Senior Member
    Here is what PISSES ME OFF. 

    Gay couple asks sumdood to make a cake. He refuses on religious grounds. Gay couple  sues. 


    Why not.....just go elsewhere? 

    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 31,707 Senior Member
    edited June 5 #23
    Yep, plenty other bakeries would have................I guess they wanted to just be er............. Butthurt................
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,483 Senior Member
    You get a different view of the world after you get to experience a few things first hand. You quickly realize it is not the same world and you are not the same man. And, you can handle it a few different ways. 

    I am glad the Baker won. As many pointed out, they could have gone somewhere else. They didn't ask a Muslim baker to do it. And, he didn't deny them a cake, he denied them how they wanted it. It is not exactly the same as being sat in a completely separate section of a restaurant and passively denied service. They wanted to push an agenda against Christianity. 
     
    However, if you don't think this has enormous potential of being leveraged for a new age of Jim Crow, I would tell you we don't live in the same world. But, as CPJ hinted to, the color of money is always green regardless of who it comes from. Boycotts can have disastrous effects.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,433 Senior Member
    This wasn't exactly a big win for the baker.  The SCOTUS opinion, written by Justice Anthony Kennedy, basically said that the officials in Denver showed particular undue hostility toward the baker's religious beliefs; the ruling does not specifically deal with the larger issue of discrimination/freedom of enterprise.  They basically told the government in Denver that you can't be mean about enforcing your anti-discrimination law.  This is far from over. 
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 22,978 Senior Member
    The points centermass556 made are well thought out. I can't disagree with anything he said.

    This isn't the first cake fiasco that has taken place and ended in lawsuit; there have been several others and the targeted bakers were all Christians.And there have been at least a couple of Christians running T-shirt screen printing businesses targeted by the same group. There have also been lawsuits over being denied churches as venues for LGBTQWXYZ weddings, including a hayfield on a farm. They are all Christian venues that have been attacked with these lawsuits. Therefore, in my mind, the ones doing the pushing and suing are doing nothing more than pushing an agenda in an attempt to force others to accept them. That doesn't generally work well long term. And it certainly doesn't work towards good will being shown by the targeted group.

    A NORMAL person will go to an establishment that wants and caters to the services needed and desires of the customer. A customer going to a business that does not do so is doing so for an ulterior motive, or is just being a jerk stirring the pot. There's enough hate and discord in the world; why go out of one's way to sow more?
    If a Liberal throws a hand grenade at you, pick it up, pull the pin, and throw it back at them.



  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 31,707 Senior Member
    They wanted their cake and to eat it too, so to speak.


    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 1,456 Senior Member
    edited June 5 #28
    Some here probly won't like this, but I kind of perceive anyone that orders a custom cake from a baker as being a little full of themselves. Not much empathy here. I get my cakes ready made at the grocery store. It's a cake. Big deal.
  • RaptortrapperRaptortrapper Posts: 74 Member
    Well, this is my first post on this forum. Didn't think I'd use it on a political thread, but here goes...

    I am a self employed electrician living in Colorado.  This story, as you can imagine, was a big deal here, and was all we heard about for a long time when it first took place.  Most people forgot about it till it came time for the SCOTUS decision, then it was all over the place again. 

    My wife and I started our own business in January of 2017.  I have refused services to people on two occasions, and both were because of conflicts with my religious beliefs.  My father was a pastor for 30+ years till he retired 6 years ago.  I was raised in the church, and stand with my convictions, no matter what it may cost me.  One job I passed on would have paid a bit over $11,000 had I taken it.  It's pretty hard for a young business to stare $11,000 right in the eye, and walk away from it.  But I can still sleep at night.  We have been in business 18 months as of today, and we have still been able to make ends meet, and put food on the table. 

    It's not always about the money.

    Some people are like a slinky-- not much fun till you push them down the stairs!
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,558 Senior Member
    However, if you don't think this has enormous potential of being leveraged for a new age of Jim Crow, I would tell you we don't live in the same world.
    This is exactly my fear. Couple this with pharmacists who won't do their job on religious grounds, and you have a recipe for disaster. OTOH, its pretty apparent that the gay couple were out for the money and/or notoriety.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,558 Senior Member
    tennmike said:

    A NORMAL person will go to an establishment that wants and caters to the services needed and desires of the customer. A customer going to a business that does not do so is doing so for an ulterior motive, or is just being a jerk stirring the pot. There's enough hate and discord in the world; why go out of one's way to sow more?
    WORD.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
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