Additional risks owning, carrying, being seen with firearms

alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior MemberPosts: 8,026 Senior Member
Mods, please feel free to move this where appropriate, I'm not sure the best place. I want to have a frank discussion of the risks to gun owners from trigger happy LEOs in the "if you see something, say something" world we live in today. I would like to avoid all the cops are bad or cops are always right sorts of aspects of these types of discussion and have a more constructive discussion of how we as firearms owners can minimize the risks to ourselves.

What triggered this thread was watching this video of a younger unarmed white exterminator from Texas who was placed in a deadly game of Simon Says by the Mesa AZ swat team because another guest saw the pellet rifle he uses in his job. Warning the video has lots of graphic language and is difficult to watch, so not highly recommended, but it drove home the fact that this could pretty much happen to any of us.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/12/08/graphic-video-shows-daniel-shaver-sobbing-and-begging-officer-for-his-life-before-2016-shooting/?utm_term=.c34a49852ca4

And just for those who only trust fox news, here is there version of the story:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/12/14/unarmed-mans-death-execution-by-arizona-officer-widow-says.html

Ok back to the subject at hand, how do we as law abiding gun owners behave in a world where any snooping eye can lead to a swat team raid and how do we react to survive the raid? I get always comply 100%, but that's easier said than done in a high stress situation with a rifle pointed at you at point blank range and a cop screaming in your face and barking orders. Some people handle stress better than others. How do we prevent the 9/11 call in the first place. I know for the SE shoot we always notify the hotel and local LEO in advance what's going on. It seems the two extremes are be wildly transparent about what you're doing as a legal gun owner and never letting anyone see or suspect what you have. The latter is easier said than done in many situations.




"Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
-DoctorWho
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Replies

  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,070 Senior Member
    Basically, if you are unlucky enough to draw a bad cop to do your 'no-knock' situation, you are just screwed.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,303 Senior Member
    The best defense is a good offense.  Be a 'gray man' attract no attention, assume someone is looking at all times, draw the shades, etc... 

    On the other hand, (in my opinion) that cop wanted to shoot someone and was looking for a reason. 
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,973 Senior Member
    I remember that video, that cop is a murderer. Period. 
    I know, you didn’t want that discussion. 

    Anyway.

    What bullsi said. Low profile. Don’t arouse suspicions.
     “Well by gawd I’m a proud gun owner and I’ll open carry and display my gawd damned guns any time I want!”

    Good luck with that. 👍 It
    aint worth the risk. It ain’t worth the hassle. If someone saw I had a gun and called the cops, even if the cops asked me how I liked thay model rather than shooting me because I “went for my gun”, that’s HASSLE I don’t want. Just leave me the **** alone. Don’t notice me. I’m just a face in the crowd. 
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 1,470 Senior Member
    Hopefully a calm person can read another person. If the officer can't read me it's up to me to read them and act accordingly. My primary objective must be the avoidance of a lethal encounter. It has to supersede everything else including being right. They'll be time for that later after tensions are de escalated. Cops are people. If they're agitated or frightened I have to read that and move like a compliant statue until such time as calm takes over.

    No guarantees. But like everything else in life a great deal is up to me.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,026 Senior Member
    Adding another wrinkle, I agree generally low profile is probably best, but not always possible. For the times it isn't is it best to be more conspicuous? Like if you're traveling with a rifle and want to bring it into your hotel room is it better to be all swagged out in camo and look ready for a hunt with an NRA sticker on your car, or more low profile. I feel like the "he's got a gun people" are less likely to be suspicious of someone they generally expect to have a gun?

    Also, are there good ways/best practices to indicate to cops that you're a "good guy with a gun" when they're responding to a "man with a gun" call?
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 1,470 Senior Member
    If you live in a large congested city, you can safely assume there are not only no good guys with guns, there are no good guys without a police badge.
    And act/react accordingly. It sounds harsh, but life in such places is harsh.

    Best to see things as they are instead of how they should be.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,026 Senior Member
    If you live in a large congested city, you can safely assume there are not only no good guys with guns, there are no good guys without a police badge.
    And act/react accordingly. It sounds harsh, but life in such places is harsh.

    Best to see things as they are instead of how they should be.
    I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, I assume you're saying that from the perspective of LEOs in large congested areas?
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,303 Senior Member
    Adding another wrinkle, I agree generally low profile is probably best, but not always possible. For the times it isn't is it best to be more conspicuous? Like if you're traveling with a rifle and want to bring it into your hotel room is it better to be all swagged out in camo and look ready for a hunt with an NRA sticker on your car, or more low profile. I feel like the "he's got a gun people" are less likely to be suspicious of someone they generally expect to have a gun?
    Absolutely not.  Have it in a case that could be something else, be dressed like a normal dude.  That way, you do not attract attention for someone to break into your room or vehicle to steal the guns.

    The sheep that would call the cops because they see a BB gun would NEVER expect anyone to have a gun and would have a case of the pearl-clutching vapors if you were dressed in full buck-master camo or just a polo and dockers.

    Those kinds of people are irrational to the point of psychosis.  Don't disturb crazy.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,576 Senior Member
    edited June 7 #10
    I had this situation on my way home - I wanted to clean my Garand in the hotel room. It was, of course, in its CMP case, but I still brought it in a side door just to be discreet. When I took it out the next morning, I just strolled out with it as it was going OUT - and I doubt many would know what CMP means anyway...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,026 Senior Member
    Adding another wrinkle, I agree generally low profile is probably best, but not always possible. For the times it isn't is it best to be more conspicuous? Like if you're traveling with a rifle and want to bring it into your hotel room is it better to be all swagged out in camo and look ready for a hunt with an NRA sticker on your car, or more low profile. I feel like the "he's got a gun people" are less likely to be suspicious of someone they generally expect to have a gun?
    Absolutely not.  Have it in a case that could be something else, be dressed like a normal dude.  That way, you do not attract attention for someone to break into your room or vehicle to steal the guns.

    The sheep that would call the cops because they see a BB gun would NEVER expect anyone to have a gun and would have a case of the pearl-clutching vapors if you were dressed in full buck-master camo or just a polo and dockers.

    Those kinds of people are irrational to the point of psychosis.  Don't disturb crazy.
    Fair, you do have to navigate both the people who might want to steal your guns vs. those that would call in the swat team on you. Gun cases that don't look like gun cases are a good suggestion. I'll note the one year I flew to the SE shoot, I brought only pistols and kept my locked pistol case inside a large rolling suitcase. I took that suitcase on the Metro and into Reagan airport without anyone suspecting anything until the gate agent asked to see my firearms and I opened everything up and pulled out 5 pistols for her to inspect and ensure they were unloaded. To say the least she was a bit surprised!

    That said, long gun cases that don't look like gun cases can be a bit harder to come by. Definitely not impossible, just takes a bit more creativity. 
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 1,470 Senior Member
    If you live in a large congested city, you can safely assume there are not only no good guys with guns, there are no good guys without a police badge.
    And act/react accordingly. It sounds harsh, but life in such places is harsh.

    Best to see things as they are instead of how they should be.
    I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, I assume you're saying that from the perspective of LEOs in large congested areas?
    Yes, that's exactly my meaning.👍
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,303 Senior Member


    That said, long gun cases that don't look like gun cases can be a bit harder to come by. Definitely not impossible, just takes a bit more creativity. 
    Slap a "Fender" "Korg" or "Yamaha" sticker on a plain aluminum case, and it looks like it would be a guitar ir Keyboard case.  Downside to that is that musical instruments are only slightly less desirable to steal than guns.

    It takes some creativity, but can be done.  Break down the upper and lower of an AR, and it can fit in a regular backpack- wont work for flying, but can work for getting in/out of hotels.  Tool cases can hold a broken down AR, and fly on airlines.

    It takes thought, but hell- I've been carrying a gun concealed for over 30 years.  forethought to not be seen doing so is second nature by now.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,561 Senior Member
    I still can't fathom any jury believing this bloodthirsty cop's claim that he thought the absolutely terrorized and confused young man on the floor was reaching for a gun. Kidding me? I wonder how many bridges and how much swamp land those jurors have bought. And I'm sure they've all invested with a Nigerian Prince or two.  

    I don't carry long arms into any kind of travel lodging for any reason. That's what car trunks are for - keeping valuables secured and out of sight. As for handguns, I might have one in my suitcase if I can't CC in that state; if I can carry, I pocket carry a weapon small enough that it precludes any possibility of an unintended display -  nobody ever knows.

    It's not a perfect world. Poo-poo happens, Murphy is working overtime, and the best laid plans of mice and men won't survive first contact with life. You can pave the road to Hell with good intentions, but you're still on it and there are no exits. Sometimes, there really isn't anything you can do to avoid a calamitous outcome with law-enforcement, especially if the officer you encounter is determined to kill you no matter what.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,576 Senior Member
    horselips said:

    I don't carry long arms into any kind of travel lodging for any reason. That's what car trunks are for - keeping valuables secured and out of sight. As for handguns, I might have one in my suitcase if I can't CC in that state; if I can carry, I pocket carry a weapon small enough that it precludes any possibility of an unintended display -  nobody ever knows.

    That's exactly right and where mine were the entire time I was gone to the shoot - except AT the shoot.

    AND...

    The one time I brought the Garand into the hotel room to clean it. I'm not worried about somebody stealing it from my room because I was in the room with it, but I don't want to cause any hysteria either so I was discreet about bringing it in. I was more worried about my cleaning kit which is in an ammo can, quite frankly.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 17,548 Senior Member
    alphasigmookie said:
    Ok back to the subject at hand, how do we as law abiding gun owners behave in a world where any snooping eye can lead to a swat team raid and how do we react to survive the raid?

    For the first bolded part, as Bullsi and other have already said, do your best to be invisible.

    For the second bolded part... Do WHATEVER the cop tells you to do, WHEN he tells you to do it until it gets to the point (s)he realizes you are NOT a threat.

    Chris Rock, as a joke, had something on his old TV series, that actually has some danged good advice....

    LANGUAGE WARNING



    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,070 Senior Member
    To me, the bottom line is that if you run afoul of some kind of 'Chicken Little' anti-gun activist, and he or she slanders you to a stupid or overly aggressive cop who should not have police credentials in the first place, your options are limited.

    First, you have to survive, or their story gets told and yours doesn't. In most cases, the way to do that is to submit immediately and profoundly - nobody seems to understand anything else. Empty hands in the air, etc. If you draw that one in ten thousand 'cowboy,' who has somehow slipped through the cracks of the police screening process, just pray, I guess.

    If you survive initial contact, then you just have to hope that the 'good' cops don't circle the wagons to protect the 'bad' cop. It is a significant concern, because good leadership descends from the top, and if so little attention is paid to new recruits that a 'wrong' guy makes it through the selection process, there are probably other problems sprinkled through the department. Gray areas exist, mainly because of the stress added by forcing policemen to be overly sensitive to the politics involved in enforcing the law.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 31,710 Senior Member
    And some officers use less that lethal means when they can...........like that can-o-beans when the guy had a hammer someone on here posted about..........in Mesa they would have done a few mag dumps on him without batting an eye................and that hammer situation was much more 'Lethal' than a young drunk and confused pest control exterminator who failed a Simon Says game the cops were playing........hell a sober person would have a hard time following all those commands in that situation.

    I think that cop (ex..good) was a punk with a badge and an AR who wanted to bust a cap on the first person he could for the slightest provocation. He should have been convicted for 2nd degree murder or manslaughter.

    They really stretched the 'Benefit of doubt' with this case. I hope that department feels ashamed for what they did. I hope this case follows that punk and he can never get an LEO job anywhere again.

    I'm usually 100% behind our police and still am, but I reserve the right to condemn the actions of a few sheet heads like this one that are turds in the punch bowl of that profession.  



     



     
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 31,710 Senior Member
    edited June 8 #19
    Watched the video again......'You make another mistake and we are gonna shoot you' 

    What a trigger happy asshole...................obvious they were trying to 'Hook him up' from the beginning.




    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 7,879 Senior Member
    edited June 8 #20
    I remember when this first surfaced. This so called cop killed that young man in cold blood in my opinion.  There was no reason in the world for him to pull the trigger.

    In that situation I do not believe there was anything anyone could have done to stop that cop from shooting.  For the most part I keep a low profile, to the point that I used to back the car into the driveway and load guns into the trunk. Now, I really do not bother with that, but also do not flash any guns even on my property.  Concealed carry is concealed always, even around the house when in view of others.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,576 Senior Member
    bisley said:
    ..hope that the 'good' cops don't circle the wagons to protect the 'bad' cop. It is a significant concern...
    This is a SIGNIFICANT concern indeed - I've seen it happen twice, fortunately not with anything I was involved with. They close ranks FAST! I am generally very supportive of the police, they have a thankless, crappy job as far as I'm concerned. But this kind of thing *does* happen.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
  • 104RFAST104RFAST Senior Member Posts: 1,221 Senior Member
    Bad shoot IMO. Should be up on murder charge
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,200 Senior Member
    I've hauled small armories of long and short guns as well as ammo boxes and range bags right through lobbies, past the front desk, up the elevator to the room many times.  Nobody has ever said a thing except a guy in the elevator asked what kind of rifles I had.

    As far as cops, I think the trend has for years been to shoot sooner and sooner. Even if you do everything right, how cell phones have been mistaken as guns?  I would hate to be black in an big city in America.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,433 Senior Member
    Fortunately, I've had no negative experiences with LEOs, even while carrying.  I generally don't do anything that would attract or invite Police attention, and when an encounter commences, I am respectful, calm, and compliant.  I make sure that everything about me says 'non threat', from my tone of voice, to my posture, to my facial expressions.  I also don't frequent places where the police are likely to encounter dangerous people.  I figure that's about the best I can do to avoid being in a bad situation, and deal with one if I'm ever in one.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • kansashunterkansashunter Senior Member Posts: 1,300 Senior Member
    Living in a rural place has some advantages, I know the Sheriff and several of the deputies so I am not worried about something happening at home. I have taken long guns in cases into motel rooms several times. If I have to go thru the lobby I tell someone at the front desk what I am doing. Maybe I have been lucky.  
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,070 Senior Member
    I think that any person who adopts a realistic attitude towards the problems that LEOs face every day can do a lot to make their own life easier and safer, by just using plain old common sense. At the point where survival becomes a primary goal, it is time to drop the facade of loyalty to any political cause and concentrate on what it takes to survive against an unreasoning individual or group.

    The first thing is to remember that policemen are fallible human beings, and that, just like every other human being, they are going to use profiling to help them succeed at whatever they are trying to accomplish. No artificial, politically correct regulations that prohibit it are going to have much effect on that very human, natural behavioral trait. It is one of many keys to survival and prosperity on the mean streets, and offers just as many advantages as it does disadvantages for the average person who becomes the subject of it. The only time this statement is not true is when a policemen decides that his particular method of profiling is anything other than another tool in the law enforcement tool box.

    A wise person will go out of his way to fit a profile that does not threaten anyone, whenever law enforcement personnel are present, especially in any situation that is liable to be stressful. It allows the LEO to screen them out in the initial assessment, and shift his focus to a more likely suspect. It is important to recognize that he/she is afraid for his/her own life, yet is still going to get the job done, if possible. Knowing that explains a lot of the human error that we see in the majority of police videos, rather than the blatant disregard for human life that we occasionally see in one.


  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 17,548 Senior Member
    Well said Bisley
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,026 Senior Member
    Decent post Bisley. I think a lot more of these incidents happen because the LEO is crapping their pants scared, not because they are bloodthirsty. When the word gun is introduced their pucker factor understandably goes up. 
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,070 Senior Member
    I'm not ignorant enough to suggest that the modern definition of racism doen't exist in real life. But I do believe that even the old-fashioned haters are not foolish to think that they can become LEOs and act out their hateful fantasies, at least not many. It is much more likely that the real haters of today are the ones who have been exposed to too much of the indifference and sociopathic behavior that exists in the 'street' people of all colors, with no hope of turning that situation around, in the current political climate. It would be quite easy for a LEO who is in 'over his head' to decide that the stigma that is being put upon him is worse than the stigma of being the wrong color was, in times past.
  • jaywaptijaywapti Senior Member Posts: 4,237 Senior Member
    edited June 11 #30
    j
    THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,026 Senior Member
    bisley said:
    I'm not ignorant enough to suggest that the modern definition of racism doen't exist in real life. But I do believe that even the old-fashioned haters are not foolish to think that they can become LEOs and act out their hateful fantasies, at least not many. It is much more likely that the real haters of today are the ones who have been exposed to too much of the indifference and sociopathic behavior that exists in the 'street' people of all colors, with no hope of turning that situation around, in the current political climate. It would be quite easy for a LEO who is in 'over his head' to decide that the stigma that is being put upon him is worse than the stigma of being the wrong color was, in times past.
    I feel like where racism exists in law enforcement it is mostly unconscious. Basically higher suspicion factor, higher fear factor when they're interacting with someone who is not white. Thus with a greater fear factor there's a higher probability of mistakes being made. 
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
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