This technology could fundamentally change our relationship to electricity

Big ChiefBig Chief Senior MemberPosts: 31,707 Senior Member
Interesting, but a long read. Videos informative on what they are doing. Lot of usable electricity is wasted from generation to where the loads consume it. To manage it on this micro/ waveform level is something never done before.

Anyhow, I found it interesting and a good peek into what the future may hold for not just certain industries and businesses, but possibly in residential applications too. Heck they even talk of microchips in devices managing their power consumption more efficiently.

Alpha in his new energy job might find it interesting and it has possible uses aboard ships too, for example. Not just the savings on electrical bills, but by eliminating waste, excessive heat it can save wear and tear on equipment among other things.



It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
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  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 31,707 Senior Member
    The author a little on the 'Global Warming/Carbon Footprint' side of things, but these days that's expected.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,558 Senior Member
    Looks doable. I hope it includes real time PF correction as well. However, it also makes the grid MUCH more vulnerable. *shrug*
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 22,978 Senior Member
    My Bullsqueeze detector pegged so hard it broke the needle when I read that part of voltage and current being in phase with one another.  Voltage ALWAYS leads current in inductive circuits; voltage ALWAYS LAGS current in inductive circuits; voltage and current are in phase only with purely resistive circuits. Physics MUST be followed; there is no magic wand to make it otherwise.

    And resistance, capacitance, and inductance are sneaky little critters. Capacitance and inductance can be found in what is thought to be a purely resistive circuit. Capacitance can be found in most any circuit. Inductance can be found in most any circuit. Resistance is ALWAYS there.

    There are certainly ways to 'clean up' the waveforms of most any circuit, but what the article suggests is beyond hard to believe.
    If a Liberal throws a hand grenade at you, pick it up, pull the pin, and throw it back at them.



  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,558 Senior Member
    tennmike said:
    My Bullsqueeze detector pegged so hard it broke the needle when I read that part of voltage and current being in phase with one another.  Voltage ALWAYS leads current in inductive circuits; voltage ALWAYS LAGS current in inductive circuits; voltage and current are in phase only with purely resistive circuits. Physics MUST be followed; there is no magic wand to make it otherwise.

    And resistance, capacitance, and inductance are sneaky little critters. Capacitance and inductance can be found in what is thought to be a purely resistive circuit. Capacitance can be found in most any circuit. Inductance can be found in most any circuit. Resistance is ALWAYS there.

    There are certainly ways to 'clean up' the waveforms of most any circuit, but what the article suggests is beyond hard to believe.
    Exactly right - that's why I said that I hope it has real-time PF correction - because if it doesn't - its a waste of time and money.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 31,707 Senior Member
    Look at the 4 videos, I at first was skeptical.  True the laws of electricity can't be changed.

    Don't let the bar graphs throw you off, I think they just are trying to clean up the available wave forms to eliminate much of the waste, make what it there more efficient to use when under a load.

    "By now, many BS detectors will be ringing at full volume. I get it. This sounds like magic beans.

    And this is a field full of magic beans. Manifestos promising revolutionary energy solutions (if only The Establishment weren’t suppressing them) abound. I get those emails myself.

    3DFS tech directly challenges a lot of conventional wisdom in the field and involves a technology and a level of data that are genuinely new, such that basically nobody beyond 3DFS has experience with them. It makes it difficult to consult outside experts — the best I got was, “Well, I don’t hear anything that sounds impossible...” — and quite rightly inspires a heightened level of skepticism. One professor of electrical engineering, when I mentioned that 3DFS believes DOE numbers on energy waste are mistaken, became enraged and literally hung up on me.

    But 3DFS is not a fly-by-night operation, it’s a research lab that’s been around for 15 years and employs well-known and experienced engineers. And as I learned by talking to people who have used it, the product is not vaporware. It exists, and it works.

    And 3DFS is not secretive with its data. It is happy to show anyone who asks what real-time visibility into electricity looks like. Its claims are testable and it is eager to have them tested.

    It took a great deal for me to get past my own skepticism. Reporting this story, I was repeatedly reminded of science-fiction author Arthur C. Clarke’s famous dictum that “any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” But I’m convinced that this thing is not magic. It is real, and it’s a big deal."


    I'm curious to find out more about this. 

     

    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 31,707 Senior Member
    A 'Super Regulator/Filter' that cleans up the dirty stuff outta electricity at the Micro level thereby reducing a lot of waste and giving the loads exactly what they demand from the cream of the crop might be one way of looking at it.

    It's all new to me too. We know about Peak/Average/RMS and all that, maybe they have found a way to drill way down into the waveforms and clean them up making more efficient use of them.

    I need to poke around and see what I can find out about this more.

    I found this article.

    How 3DFS Is Applying Software-Defined Power To Increase Electrical Efficiency







     



    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,558 Senior Member
    Remember, when we were all pups, a 1 Farad capacitor was essentially impossible...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,020 Senior Member
    I just had time to scan some of the article. I don't doubt they probably have a technology that is useful. I just think the claims they make (or the author seems to they make) are ridiculous. They may be able to cut transmission losses in half, a non-trivial thing, and those losses may even be somewhat underestimated, but they're not doubling the amount of electricity delivered, that's just basic thermodynamics. Those laws are quite prickly and impossible to break. In other words, they're definitely not doubling the amount of electricity delivered, but maybe increasing it by 1 or 2%. That's not nothing, but it's also not a revolution by any means.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • GilaGila Posts: 262 Member
    tennmike said:
    My Bullsqueeze detector pegged so hard it broke the needle when I read that part of voltage and current being in phase with one another.  Voltage ALWAYS leads current in inductive circuits; voltage ALWAYS LAGS current in inductive circuits; voltage and current are in phase only with purely resistive circuits. Physics MUST be followed; there is no magic wand to make it otherwise.

    And resistance, capacitance, and inductance are sneaky little critters. Capacitance and inductance can be found in what is thought to be a purely resistive circuit. Capacitance can be found in most any circuit. Inductance can be found in most any circuit. Resistance is ALWAYS there.

    There are certainly ways to 'clean up' the waveforms of most any circuit, but what the article suggests is beyond hard to believe.
    I didn't bother to click on the link since Big Chief said it is a long read, your BS alarmed and I'm retired.  I just want to know what ever happened to super conductors, the be all, cure all, fix all solution to electronics.  They must have froze that idea.
    To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.  Sun Tzŭ
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 31,707 Senior Member
    uF and pF ones like .01 and so forth. Michael Faraday was an early inventor who taught us a lot about electromagnetism among other things.  They named the capacitance of a capacitor after him expressed as units called Farads..... and then there is the Faraday Cage.................    
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • GilaGila Posts: 262 Member
    Big Chief said:
    uF and pF ones like .01 and so forth. Michael Faraday was an early inventor who taught us a lot about electromagnetism among other things.  They named the capacitance of a capacitor after him expressed as units called Farads..... and then there is the Faraday Cage.................    
    Now that is exactly what is needed; Faraday cages for all of the nation's electrical infrastructure. 
    To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.  Sun Tzŭ
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 1,288 Senior Member
    If they can make it work and be able to distribute it at a low enough cost, it would really be beneficial.

    He likes the word synchronized but I think he could've used the word "Conditioned" also. At least, that what he seems to be talking about but at the sinusoidal level.

    (A three-phase electrical current being synchronized.

    In the above example, the device takes 3-phase current smooths out the amplitudes and transient noises riding "piggyback" so that the three phases look more like the theoretical sine-waves they should be.

    This is a quest for efficiency and since most of the waste occurs on the user end (neighborhood of 62%), their product is targeted here.

    Reality check:
    For now, the work begins by retrofitting current infrastructure. “Heavy, physical use of power, motors and compressors, are going to immediately reduce their energy consumption maybe 20, 25 percent,” Doerfler says, “in IT loads and computers, it will be 10 to 15 percent.” But he stresses that those are initial savings; as the AI system learns, it gets more efficient. He thinks a fully SDE network can eventually reduce consumption by 30 to 35 percent for most applications, more for heavy industrial processes.

    If they can find a way to make it cost effective then I'm all for them. :)


    "Facts are stubborn things and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of the facts and evidence" — John Adams
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 22,978 Senior Member
    Transmission losses could be easily cut; just got to find a few bazillion tons of silver. :p
    Highly capacitive and inductive loading has been mitigated for a long time by using induction for the capacitive loading proplems and capacitors for the inductive loading problems. Having a real time waveform shaping to help both would make a huge savings in usage, but I can ALSO see the means to do that extremely expen$$$$$$ive to implement due to the size of the equipment required to do that. Getting all that whiz-bang science from the lab to the real world usually doesn't make a smooth transition. It's one thing to do it on a household scale, and a whole nother can of worms when scaled up to multi megawatts. And I don't care what they do, those transformers are gonna vibrate (hum) no matter what. Even the conductors do that; anyone that has placed their ear against a wooden transmission pole knows that.
    If a Liberal throws a hand grenade at you, pick it up, pull the pin, and throw it back at them.



  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 31,707 Senior Member
    Sounds like it is something better suited for computer based server type businesses right now. That type equipment is very vulnerable to voltage variations.

    But they say it can run the any Gens, HI-VAC and lights more efficiently too.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • hawk18hawk18 Senior Member Posts: 698 Senior Member
    I read the article at 11:00 pm in  motel in Madras, Or. Thursday night. Then I thought about it for three hours when I couldn't sleep. Parts of their discovery makes sense and probably works. Parts of the article is mostly reporting on smoke and mirrors. 
    The portion concerning applications at the point of consumption , and I mean component consumption , will work. But, that means using a separate gizmo for each control circuit, power supply, sensing circuit, etc. That would mean thousands of gizmos in just a small data collection, management center and wouldn't translate to the savings necessary to cover the cost, at this time. The farther you move this up the supply system, the less benefit you reap and the more expensive each unit becomes. 15 volt DC at 1.5 amps application on a circuit board does not equate to 500 kvolt, 200 amp ac on the main grid. Or 1000 kv, high amp DC cross country transmission. 
    As to generation/transmission efficiency, the real measure is cost of Mwh produced/delivered and this is where I see their gizmo failing to produce. Switched capacitors and reactors of that magnitude DO NOT react well to short time application. Things can, and do, go boom. 
    If you are going to impress me with the 26 parameters you monitor, don't count phase angle and power factor as two. They're the same thing. 
    I could be wrong and Lord knows, I have been before. But, 35 years in the operation, protection and control of a chunk of that power grid makes me both optimistic and sceptical. But, if social/political pressure forces those changes, Tennmike and I are investing in silver. 

    Hawk
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 22,978 Senior Member
    Hawk, on that power factor thing, I understand it best from the supply side as that's where I was at in the power house. It was reduced to VARs or Volts Amps Reactive. That was changed by varying the voltage on the exciter on the generator, and was run with the generator slightly over excited. Underexcited was 'motoring the generator' and was bad from the standpoint of producing power, and causing excessive heat in the generator and exciter. Over excitation guaranteed you were 'pushing the power' out onto the grid and was constantly monitored as it was manual control. Voltage control wasn't an issue except in very high usage during really cold or really hot weather. Sometimes with ALL the plants going full bore 100% output the voltage would sag. That situation was known as the users 'sucking a hickey' on the generator. :D I only remember that situation (brownouts) happening a few times in 25 years.

    Agree with the best use being at the end user on the smaller things in the 1 Kw or less range. And TOTALLY  agree that capacitor and inductor banks don't play well when being switched in and out rapidly. Inductive kickback and rapid capacitor charge and discharge are asking for trouble, and getting it when scaled up to major Kw and Mw ranges.
    If a Liberal throws a hand grenade at you, pick it up, pull the pin, and throw it back at them.



  • hawk18hawk18 Senior Member Posts: 698 Senior Member
    Tennmike...What type of plant did you operate?  The only time I spent actually operating a turbine generator was a hydro unit, way back in the boonies. If you had kids, it was nearly an hour drive just to catch the school bus in the winter time. Parts of that was the best job I ever had. 
    As to power factor, I always visualize watching two stacked three phase rotors spin. One represents voltage, the other represents current. When the poles don't line up, the angular offset represents your power factor. Following the old crutch, ELI the ICE man. The angle is your phase angle, the COS of the angle is the power factor. They don't teach it that way now. I guess leading and lagging don't program as easily as plus and minus. 
    I always figured the future of the power industry would evolve to point of usage generation. Lots of fuel cells replacing big generators and transmission lines. Far more efficient and virtually no pollution. Not there yet. Not cost effective. 

    Hawk
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 22,978 Senior Member
    Nuclear power for 25 years, with six months in a coal fired pant in West TN (New Johnsonville) that had coal fired base load and those 'might explode on startup' gas turbine generators for peaking power or when the load was so huge that the gas turbines had to be brought on line. The last nuke plant I worked at was Watts Bar, and had hydro power at the Watts Bar dam, a very old decommissioned coal plant about a half mile downriver from the dam, and the nuke plant about a quarter mile downriver from the old coal fired plant. I'll see if I can get a pic to load.


    The area circled in red is the footprint of the old coal fired plant. It was torn down a little over a decade ago. It was a hazardous waste site due to the asbestos insulation on everything, and back before it wasn't cool to do so, they sprayed the coal with PCB oil and burned it in the boilers. Took a lot of cleanup to get the site cleaned up.
    If a Liberal throws a hand grenade at you, pick it up, pull the pin, and throw it back at them.



  • GilaGila Posts: 262 Member
    hawk18 said:
    Tennmike...What type of plant did you operate?  The only time I spent actually operating a turbine generator was a hydro unit, way back in the boonies. If you had kids, it was nearly an hour drive just to catch the school bus in the winter time. Parts of that was the best job I ever had. 
    As to power factor, I always visualize watching two stacked three phase rotors spin. One represents voltage, the other represents current. When the poles don't line up, the angular offset represents your power factor. Following the old crutch, ELI the ICE man. The angle is your phase angle, the COS of the angle is the power factor. They don't teach it that way now. I guess leading and lagging don't program as easily as plus and minus. 
    I always figured the future of the power industry would evolve to point of usage generation. Lots of fuel cells replacing big generators and transmission lines. Far more efficient and virtually no pollution. Not there yet. Not cost effective. 

    Hawk
    It's been so long that I'd forgotten about all of those sayings to remember theory.  The first I learned, and has always been my favorite, was the resistor color codes.  I don't want to get into to trouble, so I won't repeat it here, but it did have something to do with Violet...
    To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.  Sun Tzŭ
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,558 Senior Member
    Bad Boys...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,953 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    Bad Boys...
    That’s but one version...
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 17,539 Senior Member
    BBROYGBVGW

    I still remember it, 34 years later
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,558 Senior Member
    cpj said:
    zorba said:
    Bad Boys...
    That’s but one version...
    That's the only version I know - I heard a sanitized version once many years ago that didn't stick.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 22,978 Senior Member
    knitepoet said:
    BBROYGBVGW

    I still remember it, 34 years later
    With a SG at the end for the tolerance.
    If a Liberal throws a hand grenade at you, pick it up, pull the pin, and throw it back at them.



  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 1,288 Senior Member
    Thanks for that trip down memory lane! :o

    I haven't heard that mnemonic in decades (ELI or the Color codes)

    As for Power Factor, I just remember the power triangle and their relation of PF = P(Real)/P(Apparent). Since it's a ratio it has no units (whereas, Phase Angle has units of Degrees or Radians).

    The power factor is defined as the ratio of real power to apparent power.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor


    And phase angle (difference)

    If θ is the Phase Angle between the current and voltage, then the power factor is equal to the Cosine of the angle,  cos theta:

      PScos theta


    Lots of fond memories, thanks guys.


    "Facts are stubborn things and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of the facts and evidence" — John Adams
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,558 Senior Member
    tennmike said:
    knitepoet said:
    BBROYGBVGW

    I still remember it, 34 years later
    With a SG at the end for the tolerance.
    Do they even *make* 5 or 10 percent resistors anymore?
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 31,707 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    tennmike said:
    knitepoet said:
    BBROYGBVGW

    I still remember it, 34 years later
    With a SG at the end for the tolerance.
    Do they even *make* 5 or 10 percent resistors anymore?
    Yep.


    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,558 Senior Member
    And 20s too! I thought carbon comp resistors had been replaced with carbon film decades ago!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,953 Senior Member
    In my job I’ve never seen a 10%. Only 5
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 22,978 Senior Member
    cpj said:
    In my job I’ve never seen a 10%. Only 5
    Well, in some applications like yours, close enough ain't close enough! :D
    If a Liberal throws a hand grenade at you, pick it up, pull the pin, and throw it back at them.



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