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10mm TRP

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  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,096 Senior Member
    edited July 2018 #32
    For some strange reason, the folks @ Rock Island told me they use, IIRC, an 18# spring in my 5" 10mm.

    I run a heavier spring than that in my Rem 1911 45 (20#)

    I learned that with their FLGR set up, a heavier 1911 spring won't work, so I went with a 24# "Commander" length spring

    (all weights from memory)
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    I had a similar problem trying to find an optimal bullet for my Keltec sub 2000 in .40 S&W because the added barrel length drive the bullets near 10mm velocity.  I settled on 180 gr XTP's.  

    Will be watching this thread!

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • RaptortrapperRaptortrapper Posts: 94 Member
    edited July 2018 #34
    Funny you guys brought this up.  I ran across the same article from buffalo bore.  Been thinking about getting a heavier spring.  Don't think I NEED it, but since we are discussing it, I'll get one, then run these same loads through my chronograph. 

    My stock spring is #18.  If I remember right, that BB article talked about a #21.  I will see what I can find for my TRP.  

    We'll right it down and call it science.  Otherwise, it's just screwing around!
    Some people are like a slinky-- not much fun till you push them down the stairs!
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,024 Senior Member
    Exactly!!
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,864 Senior Member
    I'd be interested to see what comes out of it.
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,864 Senior Member
    In this instance, if the goal is 1200fps and it looks like it's 21fps short of the goal with acceptable accuracy, depending on the powder's temperature sensitivity, 21fps could well be within that threshold.  More so than the recoil spring, I would think.  If the load hit 1200fps now, in the middle of January, it might not even be close.  I've also not used Longshot powder, so I'm not sure of it's characteristics. 
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,749 Senior Member
    Jay said:
    I'd be interested to see what comes out of it.

    A big flame, a 220gr slug, and all the fun a pair of hands can hold on too😁
  • RaptortrapperRaptortrapper Posts: 94 Member
    edited July 2018 #39
    I did a little research, and found that the Colt Delta Elite comes stock with a #23 pound recoil spring.  Not sure why Springfield opted for an 18# spring in the 10mm TRP, but I'm not the design guy either.  I ordered a 23# spring from Midway for this little experiment, and it should be here late next week. 

    I've decided not to touch a thing on my reloading press, and will run my test with the exact same loads I was using earlier.  I'll put the "Accurate 1200+ fps load" search on the back burner till this little experiment is over.  I'm gonna run a series of 18 (2 full magazines) shots on this test so we have a better representation of what is really going on.  18 with the stock spring, and then 18 with the 23# spring.  I'll be checking for accuracy and velocity.  Also curious as to what the standard deviation does.  Any other suggestions or curiosities?  
    Some people are like a slinky-- not much fun till you push them down the stairs!
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    Makes sense to me. I always shoot better with pistol hand loads when using heavy bullets. I've never shot anything but 180 grain FMJ factory loads out of my G-20, but if I was hunting with it, I would definitely try heavy loads with a stronger recoil spring.
  • RaptortrapperRaptortrapper Posts: 94 Member
    edited July 2018 #41
    I did a little research, and found that the Colt Delta Elite comes stock with a #23 pound recoil spring.  Not sure why Springfield opted for an 18# spring in the 10mm TRP, but I'm not the design guy either.  I ordered a 23# spring from Midway for this little experiment, and it should be here late next week. 

    I've decided not to touch a thing on my reloading press, and will run my test with the exact same loads I was using earlier.  I'll put the "Accurate 1200+ fps load" search on the back burner till this little experiment is over.  I'm gonna run a series of 18 (2 full magazines) shots on this test so we have a better representation of what is really going on.  18 with the stock spring, and then 18 with the 23# spring.  I'll be checking for accuracy and velocity.  Also curious as to what the standard deviation does.  Any other suggestions or curiosities?  
    Now THAT is how science is done!!!  good job!

    I have a couple degrees and minors.  All are science fields.  I've done a few experiments in my day. :D
    Some people are like a slinky-- not much fun till you push them down the stairs!
  • RaptortrapperRaptortrapper Posts: 94 Member
    edited July 2018 #42
    Thanks 
    Some people are like a slinky-- not much fun till you push them down the stairs!
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    cpj said:
    So refreshing to see someone who understands how to test something. Just change ONE thing at a time and compare results. 👍👍👍👍👍
    Yep - I don't know how many times during my hand loading evolution that I have become mired in indecision, due to changing two or three things, and then wondering which things worked. I am a poor scientist - not because I'm especially stupid, but because I am too impatient. Easier access to test-firing facilities would likely cure me of this, but I'm too lazy to drive 15 miles to the shooting range and shoot one or two groups, every time I tweak one of the variables.

    If I am only tweaking the powder charge, I will load six cartridges for each incremental adjustment, and put them in their own zip-lock bag. along with an index card with the load data, and then shoot two 3-shot groups with each. But, then I may decide to change the distance off the lands, or the OAL, or something else, and then I end up out in the weeds, because I have changed too many of the variables.
  • RaptortrapperRaptortrapper Posts: 94 Member
    Well, sorry fellas.  My little experiment has been put on hold.  The local gun range has been closed till further notice due to heat / dry conditions.  Lot of fires around the state, and one was caused by an idiot shooting tracer rounds.  Got all the local ranges shut down because of it. 

    I'll update this thread when I am able to start shooting again.
    Some people are like a slinky-- not much fun till you push them down the stairs!
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,749 Senior Member
  • RaptortrapperRaptortrapper Posts: 94 Member
    edited March 2019 #46
    Well, it's an old thread, but I finally got to do some work with my 10mm and the 220gr hardcast.  Short version-- 1200fps isn't possible with the gun / springs / powders / bullet cominbiations I have available to me.  In fact, I started blowing primers completely out of casings with the hottest loads, and I was still 13 fps shy of 1200 even with the fastest bullet clocked.  Not the average speed,  but the fastest, single shot.  Didn't even break 1200 one time.  

    But did I have fun?  OH HECK YEAH!!!!  My TRP held together, no damage, and I survived.  I honestly think that this 220gr hardcast out of this 10mm would go through about four elephants, and lodge in the off side shoulder of the rhino standing behind them.  At these speeds, it's not accurate.  At all.  But it was fun!!
    Some people are like a slinky-- not much fun till you push them down the stairs!
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,445 Senior Member
    10mm is fun to play with.  I have 3.  A DW RZ10 (I shoot it low for some reason, but everyone else is right on target, so I just dont shoot it much anymore), G40, and Ruger SRH.  I may have hit a wall with 180gr loads in my G40, but I plan on pushing the SRH a bit.  I have a box of 200gr cast to play with.  I need to look for some 220gr again.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,096 Senior Member
    Did the spring weights make any difference in accuracy?
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • RaptortrapperRaptortrapper Posts: 94 Member
    knitepoet said:
    Did the spring weights make any difference in accuracy?
    Well, if it did, it wasn't enough for me to tell a difference.  Only difference I could tell was pretty obvious-- how far the brass was being thrown, and how hard the slide was hitting.
    Some people are like a slinky-- not much fun till you push them down the stairs!
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 3,969 Senior Member
    Sorry to hear the experiments didn't go as planned.

    This should cheer you up. It's a joke......

    Why did the airliner fall out of the sky?





    Because all of the poles were on the right-hand side of the plane.
    :D
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,262 Senior Member
    Looks like I missed this entirely.

    Having played with cast bullet alloys a lot, I think many folks go WAY overboard on weight, and I would put your 220 grain 10mm's into that category.

    Exhibit A:



    Left is an unfired LBT 452-230LFN cast of water-quenched wheelweights at about 23-24 BHN.  The right is the same bullet after being driven at the GI standard speed of 830 fps.  This took NINE gallon milk jugs full of water to stop.  The typical expanding police duty load takes 3, sometimes 4.

    Exhibit B:



    Two 130 grain .32 WFN bullets from the same mold, both fired with the same powder charge at about 1250 fps.  Bullet on the left is a hard, water quenched alloy much like the .45 above.  Again, nine milk jugs to stop it.  Bullet on the right is 20-1 lead tin - it stopped in three jugs.

    With the harder alloys, these slugs have the steam to probably punch through the rib cages of TWO broadside elk.  I think we (the hunting culture) developed a "necessary weight" matrix around cup-and-core bullets that does not really apply to cast.  For example, in .30-06, we tend to think of anything less than 150 grains as a varmint bullet; 150-165 for deer, 180 for elk, etc...  With bullets that aren't increasing their frontal area, or shedding a lot of weight on impact, you can get by with less mass and up your velocity at the same time.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 3,969 Senior Member
    I think he was trying to replicate the performance of the Buffalo Bore load.
    HEAVY 10MM OUTDOORSMAN -  220 gr. Hard Cast - FN
    (1,200 fps/ME 703 ft. lbs.)
    If successful, it would be cheaper to roll your own.

    Personally, I think he got close enough to call it good. I don't see it as a failure at all.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • RaptortrapperRaptortrapper Posts: 94 Member
    SPK, you are exactly right.  Wanted to duplicate that heavy load.  Not because I NEED to, but because I WANT to.  That's one of the great things about America-- we all like different things.  I like heavy for caliber in all of my guns, no matter if it's rifle or pistol.

    As for "close enough", yeah, I think I'm good with where I have ended up.  I have not run these through the chronograph yet, but accuracy is MUCH improved.  Backed off .4gr and don't have any more blown primers, cycles very well, and brass looks very good.

    I'm happy, and calling it good.  Will post chronograph results when I get a chance to go run them through. 
    Some people are like a slinky-- not much fun till you push them down the stairs!
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 3,969 Senior Member
    I doubt anything on the receiving end will be able to tell the difference.
    :D

    Besides, even Buffalo Bore results will vary: (from the website)
    Please note below, my personal velocities taken from real pistols.

    ➤ 1140 fps - Glock model 20 4.6-inch barrel
    ➤ 1175 fps - Colt Delta Elite 5-inch barrel
    ➤ 1201 fps - Para Ordnance 1911 with Nowlin 5-inch barrel

    I call close enough for government work or zombie apocalypse!


    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • RaptortrapperRaptortrapper Posts: 94 Member
    SPK said:
    I call close enough for government work or zombie apocalypse!


    There's a difference??
    Some people are like a slinky-- not much fun till you push them down the stairs!
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