Keystone Kops at Portland State?

TeachTeach Senior MemberPosts: 18,141 Senior Member

A Navy vet tries to break up a fight outside a bar and gets killed by armed rent-a-cops- - - - -what were they doing off campus in the first place? 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/4cdb00ea-fc9d-377f-9e2f-582a75a31473/ss_man-killed-by-police-was-us.html


Lots of mistakes on both sides, apparently, and the usual amateurish Yahoo news clip doesn't help.  It would take some extraordinary circumstances for me to intervene in somebody else's beef while carrying, for obvious reasons.  A CCW permit does not bestow police powers to someone- - - - -be a good witness/observer unless somebody is in grave danger of dying!

Jerry

  

Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite

Replies

  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 2,512 Senior Member
    The news story on tv seemed to indicate that the victim? was using verbal and nonlethal physical force to diffuse a physical confrontation. His CCW fell to the ground. When he attempted to retrieve it, he was fired upon by LEO personnel.

    The video I saw was sketchy and not complete. The background information of the victim's? activities that night was the same.

    A thorough investigation is certainly called for. Perhaps by a non partial outside entity.
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,734 Senior Member
    And, now reporting from Portland...  This was tragic.  He dropped his gun during the scuffle, and he was trying to break up a fight.  A cop saw it on the ground and yelled "Gun! Gun!"  and his instinct appears to be to grab for it since it was his and it dropped.  It has been reported that he was also ordered to drop it and did not, and that is when he was shot.

    Sad.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,261 Senior Member
    This is just yet another example of "Gun!" = shot dead by cop. The concept of even the possibility of a "good guy with a gun" is foreign to the vast majority of police officers. Regardless of the threat level, if they see or think they see a gun someone is getting shot. Unfortunately with more good guys carrying guns, more of them are now getting shot by cops. I'm starting to wonder when the calculus shifts too far in the wrong direction? Like now we really have to weigh the odds of having to use a gun for protection vs. the increased odds that carrying a gun will result in getting shot by a cop.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 8,264 Senior Member
    This does not look good, but one thing we can not forget.  How many people carry a gun every single day of their life and never have an incident?  We hear of every single bad or perceived as bad situation, but never the millions that are of no incident.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,235 Senior Member

    Because when a cop is at a BAR FIGHT and they see a gun, the first thing they think is "must be a good guy with a gun involved in this fight."  But please, continue to Monday morning quarterback something that you've never been involved in.

    Know how to greatly reduce your risk of getting shot?  Don't carry a gun at a bar.  Don't get involved in bar fights while you're carrying a gun.  If you ignore those rules and drop your gun and a cop tells you not to grab it, don't grab it.

    Are there incidents in which law enforcement have made bad shoots?  Yup.  Some feel the need to latch onto it to make their own agenda driven point.  Feel free ignore the MILLIONS of contacts LE has with people across the country every day, some of them carrying guns (lawfully and unlawfully), and nobody gets shot.

  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,235 Senior Member
    edited July 3 #7
    And BTW, as for "keystone kops" and "rent-a-cops", in many places, university police are state certified law enforcement officers.  They go to the same academies and training as all the other cops in the state and they have statewide law enforcement credentials.
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 1,630 Senior Member
    Teach said:
    ....

     A CCW permit does not bestow police powers to someone- - - - -be a good witness/observer unless somebody is in grave danger of dying!

    Jerry

      

    But... but...  I have a badge!


    https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/concealed-carry-badge-wallet-black-with-badge-black-leather-gold-ccl-shield-797053100244.do

    I've always had reservations about the thinking behind offering badges to civilians because they have a CCL.

    Anyway, from what I get from the article, the two officers had two years experience as campus police.

    Bradford Betz wrote:
    The two responding campus police officers were identified as Shawn McKenzie and James Dewey. Both men became sworn officers in 2016, two years after Portland State University began allowing campus police to carry firearms. -- Fox News
    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/07/01/man-killed-by-police-was-us-navy-vet-trying-to-break-up-fight-reports-say.html

    Take that for what it's worth.

    I still have a lot of questions regarding what happened. I hope their investigation leads to some honest answers.

    One more thing. For some people, besides tunnel vision in time of crisis, hearing loss can happen. Things like store owners that fight back don't remember hearing their own guns going off and things of that nature.

    It could've just as easily been the navy vet didn't hear any of the officers commands because he was focused on the fracas at hand.

    The incident is just tragic no matter what happened.
    Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy and Pride... That's why I don't have a career in politics.
  • FFLshooterFFLshooter Member Posts: 677 Senior Member
    A CCW badge? That has to be the gayest thing ive ever seen, and the first time I’ve ever seen it if it’s indeed a real thing. How stupid would someone look flashing that thing like it grants an extra right.
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 39,213 Senior Member
    A CCW badge? That has to be the gayest thing ive ever seen, and the first time I’ve ever seen it if it’s indeed a real thing. How stupid would someone look flashing that thing like it grants an extra right.
    Oh, it’s real. 
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,419 Senior Member
    A CCW badge? That has to be the gayest thing ive ever seen, and the first time I’ve ever seen it if it’s indeed a real thing. How stupid would someone look flashing that thing like it grants an extra right.
    Yep....the stupidness of the concept has been discussed here for years...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 4,285 Senior Member
    If you carry well, the wink of the muzzle flash is all the perp needs to see. Mike
    Decisions have consequences, not everything in life gets an automatic mulligan.
    KSU Firefighter
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,657 Senior Member
    Only one member on here The Durango Kid is sanctioned to carry a CCW badge.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,141 Senior Member
    Hmmmmmm- - - - - -does that include the ability to "shoot from the lip"?
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 1,630 Senior Member
    Big Chief said:
    Only one member on here The Durango Kid is sanctioned to carry a CCW badge.
    I thought Buffco had a CCW badge with the Sarcasm upgrade? :o


    Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy and Pride... That's why I don't have a career in politics.
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,734 Senior Member
    A little research shows Oregon has some interesting "CCW" laws.  It is legal to carry in a bar.  It is legal to open carry with a CCW permit.  This guy was doing both.   

    I don't agree with this shooting being justified, yet, but if you are an officer and see an unidentified participant in a bar fight reach for a gun on the ground, it could turn out badly.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    My general impression of the security personnel at the P.C.C.  campus has been less than favorable,     many of them seem to suffer from Barney Fife syndrome.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Spk said:
    Teach said:
    ....

     A CCW permit does not bestow police powers to someone- - - - -be a good witness/observer unless somebody is in grave danger of dying!

    Jerry

      

    But... but...  I have a badge!


    https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/concealed-carry-badge-wallet-black-with-badge-black-leather-gold-ccl-shield-797053100244.do

    I've always had reservations about the thinking behind offering badges to civilians because they have a CCL.

    Anyway, from what I get from the article, the two officers had two years experience as campus police.

    Bradford Betz wrote:
    The two responding campus police officers were identified as Shawn McKenzie and James Dewey. Both men became sworn officers in 2016, two years after Portland State University began allowing campus police to carry firearms. -- Fox News
    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/07/01/man-killed-by-police-was-us-navy-vet-trying-to-break-up-fight-reports-say.html

    Take that for what it's worth.

    I still have a lot of questions regarding what happened. I hope their investigation leads to some honest answers.

    One more thing. For some people, besides tunnel vision in time of crisis, hearing loss can happen. Things like store owners that fight back don't remember hearing their own guns going off and things of that nature.

    It could've just as easily been the navy vet didn't hear any of the officers commands because he was focused on the fracas at hand.

    The incident is just tragic no matter what happened.
    I am definitely not  breaking up any bar fights.
    I do not frequent bars anyway.
    Terminal stupidity is it's own cure.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Ken_S_LaTransKen_S_LaTrans Posts: 108 Member
    Jay said:
    And BTW, as for "keystone kops" and "rent-a-cops", in many places, university police are state certified law enforcement officers.  They go to the same academies and training as all the other cops in the state and they have statewide law enforcement credentials.
    ...and often are a division of the state police, or department of public safety.

    In any case...a good way to get shot is to grab for a gun during a fight, regardless of the circumstances or your status as a good guy.

    "Drop the gun!" means just that.  Period.  No matter how saintly and good your intentions might be...Officer X, Y and Z don't know you from Adam.  You are, truly, a non compliant subject reaching for a weapon.

    The obvious answer was "Don't get involved in other people's shenanigans, especially don't get involved in their shenanigans while armed, and especially especially especially, don't reach for your gun...dropped or not...in a dynamic incident when officers are on scene".

    If the guy who was shot would have simply STEPPED ON HIS GUN with his hands UP to maintain control of it....then he would not have been shot in all probability.

    But...a lot of stupidity had to happen in order for him to get shot.  His status as a Navy vet is not even germane to the conversation.  His status as a shoe salesman would not be germane to the conversation.  His status as a person involved in the conflict, to whatever degree, who carelessly dropped his gun (it looked like it was in a crap holster), then to reach for it while being told NOT TO is what is really germane to the conversation.

    No...officers are not perfect, but we weren't issued ESP at the academy either.
    ONLY THE INFERIOR CRY FOR EQUALITY
  • Ken_S_LaTransKen_S_LaTrans Posts: 108 Member
    Maybe these will help officers to divine the intentions of people engaged in full frontal stupidity.

    ONLY THE INFERIOR CRY FOR EQUALITY
  • FFLshooterFFLshooter Member Posts: 677 Senior Member
    And what does Jermane have to do with it?
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,906 Senior Member
    And what does Jermane have to do with it?
    The Germans got nothing to do with this!
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Ken_S_LaTransKen_S_LaTrans Posts: 108 Member
    And what does Jermane have to do with it?
    The Germans got nothing to do with this!
    Jermaine was arguably the most talented Jackson brother.  What he has to do with this, I am unclear...but there ya have it.
    ONLY THE INFERIOR CRY FOR EQUALITY
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 1,630 Senior Member
    You're thinking about the other Jackson. He's germane.

    Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy and Pride... That's why I don't have a career in politics.
  • Ken_S_LaTransKen_S_LaTrans Posts: 108 Member
    Spk said:
    You're thinking about the other Jackson. He's germane.

    So badass he's now Samuel L. Samuel L. Jackson Jackson
    ONLY THE INFERIOR CRY FOR EQUALITY
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 6,805 Senior Member
    I want the DINDU NUFFIN shirt..... :D
    I HAVE HATED COMMUNISTS EVEN BEFORE THEY CHANGED
    THEIR NAME TO LIBERALS AND PROGRESSIVES
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,509 Senior Member
    I want the DINDU NUFFIN shirt..... :D
    I used to have one that was “Innocent Bystander”. Wore it around my police friends a lot. 
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,249 Senior Member
    I want the DINDU NUFFIN shirt..... :D
    Google can find you one in your size
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


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