Handgun Caliber "Debate"?

124

Replies

  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,809 Senior Member

    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • FFLshooterFFLshooter Member Posts: 952 Senior Member
    I’d never trust my life to a NAA revolver for all of the above mentioned reasons. I want something with a large diameter that all I have to do is pull and shoot. But a persons anus does make a fine holster for one of those little minis in a pinch.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,700 Senior Member
    edited September 2018 #94
    Nobody is saying that the NAA mini-.22's aren't kinda neat, and pretty well made, in that they work like they were intended to work. I'm just saying that any person that is new to guns should run backwards from depending upon one to survive an armed encounter. Any person that uses one for self defense should try running away, first, I think, and plan on using it for nothing but a point-blank defense, and even then, a knife or a club might be a better choice, in my opinion.
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,311 Senior Member
    I personally can't hit squat with one of them.  They are kind of loud, may scare someone away.  I'd may as well use a knife as close as he would have to get for the NAA to be effective in my hands.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,388 Senior Member
    As an aside, I did my annual LEOSA qualifications yesterday in Missouri. The course isn't particularly difficult, but the 2 hour lecture with videos, was interesting in that it suggested a new kind of urban criminal is emerging, one that may have military training. There is video of numerous members of gangs that seem to portray a modicum of advanced skills beyond the stereotypical gangsta. Whether these are military rejects, or those who have met their service obligation and mustered out, one gang in particular seems to attack residential targets with members offering cover from multiple locations with semi-automatic rifle/carbines in evidence. 

    Of course the odds are still in our favor that we are going to encounter the typical gansta, the noise in the dark outside your residence may not necessarily be one you can scare off with the admonition, "I have a gun..."

    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,178 Senior Member
    What if you greet them with steely-eyed resolve, a dispassionate mien, and ice water in your veins?
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    So, the saying so oft repeated is gonna be modified from 'Don't bring a knife to a gunfight' to 'Bring a knife too if your gun is a NAA revolver'.

    Bottom line is folks are gonna carry what they are gonna carry no matter what anyone else says.

    To me it (NAA .22 Magnum) certainly ain't the best choice, but it is better than no gun at all IMHO.


    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Oh, I had my NAA Mini .22 Mag on me this morn and went for gas and shopping.

    I sure felt better carrying it than if I'd had nothing at all on me.

    I usually keep my Charter Arms Off Duty .38 Spl in the console too. Sitting in a car seat with seat-belt on and trying to retrieve any gun from a front pocket holster is too difficult.  That includes my NAA or my Ruger LC9s.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    edited September 2018 #100
    What if you greet them with steely-eyed resolve, a dispassionate mien, and ice water in your veins?
    Channeling Ole SamW.........................I thought it was cold steel blue eyes............
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    As an aside, I did my annual LEOSA qualifications yesterday in Missouri. The course isn't particularly difficult, but the 2 hour lecture with videos, was interesting in that it suggested a new kind of urban criminal is emerging, one that may have military training. There is video of numerous members of gangs that seem to portray a modicum of advanced skills beyond the stereotypical gangsta. Whether these are military rejects, or those who have met their service obligation and mustered out, one gang in particular seems to attack residential targets with members offering cover from multiple locations with semi-automatic rifle/carbines in evidence. 

    Of course the odds are still in our favor that we are going to encounter the typical gansta, the noise in the dark outside your residence may not necessarily be one you can scare off with the admonition, "I have a gun..."

    Using coordinated, military style attacks during a robbery would be hard for anyone to fight your way outta or survive. Them boys ready to stand up and fight til the end ain't likely to throw in the towel.

    Sometimes and in certain situations I think the everyday citizen Joe and most of us if not prepared beforehand will be screwed from the Get-go. 

    Unless your house is a fortress and your family is trained like an Infantry squad and qualified with all kinds of weapons it may be futile and best to let them take what they want or you and your family will all end up dead as a door-nail. That is a hard/bitter pill for our egos to swallow, I know.

    Nothing wrong with putting up a fight and it's highly noble, but more than your life may be at stake.................something to thunk on.

    I hope I'm never in that unsavory predicament.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 1,260 Senior Member
    the noise in the dark outside your residence may not necessarily be one you can scare off with the admonition, "I have a gun..."

    My weapon of choice for dealing with the noise in the dark outside my residence is my phone.  If I am convinced there is an intruder outside I will dial 911 and let the police deal with it while I stay inside.  However, if the noise in the dark outside decides to forcefully come inside, they will be staring down the business end of a semi-auto combat 12 gauge loaded with 10 rounds of 00 buck.  That should win the caliber debate with whatever he brought to the party.  If 10 rounds of 00 buck are not sufficient, I have a fresh 10 round magazine of 1 oz. slugs within arms reach.  If he is still debating at that point, my AR-15 with loaded 30 rd. magazine is 2 steps away with another loaded 30 rd. magazine within arms reach.  If he is still debating and making me move down to my various 9mm handguns.......well the police should be arriving any moment because with that kind of a firefight going on, the entire neighborhood will be dialing 911.  :D
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 2,308 Senior Member
    edited September 2018 #103

      ...
    if the noise in the dark outside decides to forcefully come inside, they will be staring down the business end of a semi-auto combat 12 gauge loaded with 10 rounds of 00 buck.  That should win the caliber debate with whatever he brought to the party.  If 10 rounds of 00 buck are not sufficient, I have a fresh 10 round magazine of 1 oz. slugs within arms reach.  If he is still debating at that point, my AR-15 with loaded 30 rd. magazine is 2 steps away with another loaded 30 rd. magazine within arms reach.  If he is still debating and making me move down to my various 9mm handguns.......well the police should be arriving any moment because with that kind of a firefight going on, the entire neighborhood will be dialing 911.  :D
    As a last resort, against an overwhelming murderous force with certain doom imminent -- you can wire the entire property to explode.

    Caliber debate rendered pointless! :D


    Beware of false knowledge -- it is often more dangerous than ignorance.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,809 Senior Member
    edited September 2018 #104
    Spk said:
    As a last resort, against an overwhelming murderous force with certain doom imminent -- you can wire the entire property to explode.

    Nuke 'em from orbit. Its the only way to be sure*.

    *Space based kinetic weapons of sufficient size are also generally considered effective by most self-defense experts.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 2,308 Senior Member
    Wait. On who's authority? ;)

    Space based LASER with per-distortion beam, in the 40KW range ought to do it.
    Beware of false knowledge -- it is often more dangerous than ignorance.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,313 Senior Member
    I carried a NAA in .22 LR when I was a hostage negotiator.  In a pack of Kools, which I didn't smoke.  It was a Below Last Ditch weapon, and I carried it mostly for my ego.  I shot it at five yards and maybe could hit a target every once in a while.  I true belly gun.  Literally, or a forehead gun.  An elegant little revolver with a true ivory grips, but very slow. 

    For clarification, I didn't negotiate with anyone back then when I was with Athens PD, but have since and was armed with a Glock: twice.  Both times the guys were armed, but offered minimal threats.

    As for pocket carry, I do it a lot.  You're not going to win a fast draw contest with it, but you can prepare to draw the gun out of sight and it's not all that slow.  Faster than a shoulder rig and way faster than a Sneaky Pete or an ankle holsters, all of which I've toted.

    I think surviving a gunfight first hand depends a lot on proactive steps rather than reactive.  If you think you MIGHT be in danger, putting your hand in your pocket isn't going to draw much heat, whereas reaching for your waist and exposing your gun can. 
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • 104RFAST104RFAST Senior Member Posts: 1,267 Senior Member
    As an aside, I did my annual LEOSA qualifications yesterday in Missouri. The course isn't particularly difficult, but the 2 hour lecture with videos, was interesting in that it suggested a new kind of urban criminal is emerging, one that may have military training. There is video of numerous members of gangs that seem to portray a modicum of advanced skills beyond the stereotypical gangsta. Whether these are military rejects, or those who have met their service obligation and mustered out, one gang in particular seems to attack residential targets with members offering cover from multiple locations with semi-automatic rifle/carbines in evidence. 

    Of course the odds are still in our favor that we are going to encounter the typical gansta, the noise in the dark outside your residence may not necessarily be one you can scare off with the admonition, "I have a gun..."

    Should this scenario come to past in your neighborhood it
    would require some OFFENSIVE activity.  
  • Ken_S_LaTransKen_S_LaTrans Posts: 108 Member
    Okay...having spent three decades in law enforcement, and having served in several high risk, and high tempo assignments, divisions, and actually having had to use my weapon in defense of my own life and the lives of others...one thing I can promise the extollers of the virtues of the mouse gun/marginal caliber combos is this:

    You will never, not one time, not even once think "Gee, I wish I had a smaller gun with less ammo" in the middle of a fight. 

    What you are really saying is "My comfort is more important than my ability to actually defend myself, and my little bitty gun is a sakkurrity banky for when I go outside".

    The notion that a hit, or even a few hits by a .22 or a .32, or a .380 out of one of those (naturally harder to shoot well) mouse guns will stop a criminal attack with anything approaching reliability is about the same as hoping a flying unicorn that farts faerie dust who will fly you to the top of that old rock candy mountain.

    Sure...it MAY happen, there is an anorexic chance that is could.  Yes, there have been effective uses of mouse guns and mouse calibers over the years, but they are in the extreme minority.  The probability that it will happen is not one that I would bet my life on unless my most likely attacker was an Oompa Loompa, an angry kindergartner. or was named Dopey, Sneezy, or any one of the other five other dudes who left seven dents in Snow White's cherry.  It's just not probable.

    When one considers the number of times when even a so-called a "major defensive caliber" has failed to produce a one-shot, or even a multiple shot stop...then it follows that the sub-calibers would be even more likely to fail, and fail far more often. 

    I have seen medium sized men survive decent hits with the 45ACP and go on to do considerable damage to the shooter before they were stopped.  I have seen small and large men with wounds from just about every caliber one can expect in a carry holster survive, and not "stop their evil actions until they were damned well good and ready to stop". 

    The whole purpose of a defensive handgun is to STOP the fight before the fight stops you.

    You can't count on a sub caliber, low energy round out of a mouse gun to reliably produce enough immediate, fight stopping trauma.  You also can't count on getting it out of your pocket in time to actually get the hits you NEED in the time you NEED to get them before some streetwise thug is up your ass and around the corner.

    I say this because of how few people actually practice and train with whatever full size gun they have, and might actually carry in quality leather (or kydex if you please)....and they can't get their gun out of the holster in time to catch a slow boat to China, let alone try to fish a tiny little baby gun out of a pocket and try to get that working in their own defense.

    I mean...I am on USPSA and IDPA ranges every week and I see how few (Novice and D Class) shooters can actually draw and get hits without playing fumble dick....and these are people who are actually building skills.

    My point is this...regardless of how well you think you can employ a mouse gun in your own defense...you can't.  You will never be able to draw it efficiently from your pocket, and deliver fast, accurate, effective fire onto an attacker.  When I say "never"...I mean in the common sense and logic sense of the word "never". 

    The pocket, while an efficient hole in your pants in which to stick stuff, and maybe even something like a little baby gun...it is not and never will be a method of carry that it conducive to the rapid presentation of a firearm in an emergency. 

    I know.  I have carried a secondary backup....repeat....SECONDARY...backup in my pocket for years.  A secondary backup is the "backup to my backup" and I know it will be the slowest of the three guns on my person to get into action and it is the last one I would consider taking to hand in an emergency.  Even so...my pocket gun is still a 9mm with a good set of sights, good trigger, and is one with which I have shot multiple BUG gun events in USPSA or IDPA at the club level.

    You can take the Taurus TCP which has a crappy reputation for reliability in any case and try to deliver fast, accurate, effective fire in a smooth draw from your pocket....and it will be a comedy or tragedy show for experienced shooters to watch.  The grip frame is tiny, the sights are non-existent, and the trigger would be crappy on a full sized gun, and crappy is elevated to downright horrible when you're trying to get a good trigger press on a gun made for a Barbie sized hand.   BUT...it's a gun and it makes you feel better because you have it.  In a general sense, you hope you never have to use it...but in a practical sense, you better PRAY to never have to use it.

    The NAA mini revolver....while it has a certain...small bit of curious interest as possibly a tertiary backup...a backup to a backup to a backup...trying to use one of those in an actual, no ****, I am about to die confrontation as my primary defensive tool would be about just about as bad as life could get.

    Here's another little bit of street knowledge....most real street thugs and violent offenders aren't scared of Mary Jane Soccer Mom and Billy Bob Football Dad.  Like any predator, they recognize prey and simply having a gun, especially an itty bitty teeny weeny gun does NOT impress them.  Very often the presence of a full sized, so-called major caliber gun doesn't impress them much unless they are convinced by your presence and demeanor that you A) Actually know what you're doing and B) Will actually do it

    I would have to say that they really aren't all that impressed by the guys wearing "shoot me first" vests and knockoff tacticool clothes because they have become a fashion statement, or an "I wanna look operatory" costume for the amateur.  

    They have grown up around, and are accustomed to extreme violence on a level that the vast majority of people will never be exposed to.  Also...they tend to travel and act in packs.  This is not a new paradigm in criminal behavior.  What is becoming a new paradigm in criminal behavior is the mob attack (unrelated attackers committing acts of violence in which they wouldn't be involved...just cuz they wanna whup on someone). 

    Relay to me again how that TCP or NAA (or insert any sub caliber, sub size mouse blaster here) is going to be effectively presented and used against such an attack?  How many effective shots will you deliver assuming you can even get it out of your pocket with one or several dedicated attacker who are on you like white on rice?

    George Zimmerman prevailed against Trayvon Martin only because Zimmerman got lucky and had his 9mm KelTec in an IWB holster that he was able to access.  If Zimmerman had his KelTec in his pocket, then I would submit that he probably wouldn't have been able access it at all based on the "ground and pound" mounting that Martin had in his position of advantage where Zimmerman's pockets were most probably made inaccessible by Martin's legs.

    No mouse guns.














    ONLY THE INFERIOR CRY FOR EQUALITY
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,700 Senior Member
    Mostly, I avoid unfamiliar urban situations, especially on Friday or Saturday nights, on foot or in a vehicle. In a vehicle, at night, I will always have a full size .45. 357, or 9mm handy. Otherwise, I will usually have a subcompact .45 or 9mm that I can shoot well at 10 yards, in a pocket holster. It isn't ideal, but it might be good enough, if I gt the opportunity to draw it, unnoticed.

    And, I fully understand that I'm probably screwed if attacked by anything other than an incompetent or cowardly street punk. So, I avoid situations where such attacks are likely.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,080 Senior Member
    The whole "9mm doesn't work" hysteria started around two historical items:

    1.  It was an early-generation, jacketed round nose cartridge following on the heels of large, soft, often flat-nosed projectiles.  It's worth noting that .45 hardball only seems to rate one-shot stops about 60% of the time.

    2.  We had a serious dalliance with the now-regarded-as-silly notion of "shock effect", "energy transfer", call it what you will, and the common 1980's 9mm duty load was a rapidly-expanding 115 grain hollowpoint that didn't reliably penetrate enough.  We didn't really need a new round - we just needed better bullets.  Interestingly, in his 1955 book Sixguns, Elmer Keith mentions his acquaintances having good test results using his cast .38 revolver bullet hollow-pointed, sized accordingly and loaded in 9mm - - which would have pretty much duplicated the famous 158 grain LSWCHP .38 Special "FBI Load", that nobody really found any serious faults with.  It apparently either fell out of memory or wasn't cool enough for the times, but the modern 147 grainers pretty much put us right back there.

    The .40 was a hybrid "Swiss Army Knife" cartridge, that we seem to have ended up with out of some bizarre combination of slick marketing and the American need to try something "new".  It showed up right when the issues with the light 9mm's had been identified and were being fixed.  Did the gun industry proudly announce their new ammo findings to calm the nerves of all the L.E. agencies that had just finished buying 9mm duty guns by the freight car load?  Nope.  They applied the new bullet technology to a new round that had no faulty bullet stigma attached to it and convinced the same L.E. agencies they needed to buy ANOTHER freight car load of new pistols.

    The result was we got a round that works well enough. . .at the expense of being fairly hard on guns (32,000 psi chamber pressure) and hard on the recoil-sensitive "bottom half" of any agency's badge carriers.  Agencies are dropping it for those reasons.  It happens to be cheaper to feed, cheaper to maintain the guns, it ends up being cheaper still because you shoot up less of it trying to help the more challenged folks hit where they're aiming, and when they DO hit where they're aiming, the modern loads don't seem to impose any significant penalty when compared to the bigger stuff.  A fair fuzzy math argument can be made that it's a MORE effective round, simply because you'll have more folks firing more accurately.

    Something that doesn't seem to get mentioned in the "one shot stop" discussions that I've been scratching my head about:  a 9mm handgun will come back on target more quickly than the same design of pistol in .40 or .45.  Let's assume an equally well-placed first shot from all three that penetrates about the same, expands properly, and by itself, would stop the fight in the same small handful of moments.  In the accelerated time frames of gunfights, the guy with the 9mm may be back on his sights and drilling a second or third round before he can perceive the effect of his first one, while the .40 and .45 shooters may be coming back onto their sights out of heavier recoil to see their opponent fall to the ground.  Does this incorrectly have a negative affect on the perception of the 9mm as an effective round?  When you crunch the numbers and see that the only real difference between all three rounds is a piddling couple tenths of an inch in expanded diameter, I think that it might.  Sure, a 0.02" bigger diameter is better, but it isn't much better. . .and it's only better if you aren't a crappy shot that isn't throwing rounds multiple inches away from the point of aim.  The best fix for crappy shooting is spending time and ammo with whatever the gun in question is.  Bigger guns take more time and more, more expensive ammo.  When you have to ALSO buy cars, radios, uniforms, helicopter parts, and overtime, the math is real simple.   
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,178 Senior Member
    There really is no debate.
    They all stink for antipersonnel use, that's why a rifle or shotgun is preferable for actual fighting. 
    The trick is to find the handgun and chambering that stinks the least for you and your uses.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Maybe I should trade my NAA .22 Magnum in on a .25 Auto.............might get 2 or 3 Ravens fer it........... :# :D

     
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,388 Senior Member
    As long as you sling-shot the .25s to give them extra velocity...you'll be fine. 
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,809 Senior Member
    Just remember what Cooper said about the .25!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • Ken_S_LaTransKen_S_LaTrans Posts: 108 Member
    As long as you sling-shot the .25s to give them extra velocity...you'll be fine. 
    ....and tape them to a fragmentation grenade.
    ONLY THE INFERIOR CRY FOR EQUALITY
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 2,308 Senior Member
    Big Chief said:
    Maybe I should trade my NAA .22 Magnum in on a .25 Auto.............might get 2 or 3 Ravens fer it........... :# :D

     
    25's are very effective.

    Anyone who says otherwise has never stuffed two or three of them into a heavy duty sock and started swinging! :D
    Beware of false knowledge -- it is often more dangerous than ignorance.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,313 Senior Member
    Bond...James Bond carried one for years, a Beretta which accounted for a few SMERSH agents.  Then he went big time with a .32 PPK.  "Like a brick through a plate glass window."  I carried a .25 Beretta for years as a BUG and as a deep undercover pistol.  Many years ago, The American Rifleman did a penetration test between the .25 and a .22 LR, which they had to make up, since this was before the LR in Beretta came out.  SA.  They claimed the .25 fmj penetrated more than the .22 LR, which I believed entirely until we tested them side by side in an Atlanta phone book.  The LR penetrated much deeper.  Two or three times. Lost my faith in gun tests because of that.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,388 Senior Member
    As long as you sling-shot the .25s to give them extra velocity...you'll be fine. 
    ....and tape them to a fragmentation grenade.
    You have to learn to flick your wrist just so...
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 1,260 Senior Member
    Keeping one of these in your pocket would be more effective.......
    I keep mine in the couch for home defense.
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 2,308 Senior Member
    TTC

    Tactical Throw Cat!

    When stopping them isn't enough...... You wanna hurt them! :D
    Beware of false knowledge -- it is often more dangerous than ignorance.
  • KurtKurt New Member Posts: 21 New Member

    Well, I read the posts/replies to my original proposition and the other replies to your kind submissions. It appears we went from the sublime to the, dare I say it, ridiculous.

    I figured most folks would have their preferences and that some folks would be on the extreme ends of the spectrum when it comes to caliber/platform…and I was right. I was surprised at how quickly the discussion devolved into the mini category. Yes, I own and have carried a 25ACP and always felt under-gunned. I did find it was loud enough to discourage a dog attack by waiting ‘til he was within 15 feet and discharging into the ground in front of his nose.

    The upside for me was that no one suggested carrying spears, golf ball-sized stones with slings or machetes although I lean very heavily toward the machete side of the equation. As a side note: I am also the possessor of a boar spear but have never been able to manage concealed carry with that four-foot handle. The other issue is, its just too darned heavy for fast wielding. However, I must also add that I have never felt “under-gunned” when carrying it.

    Thanks again for everyone’s input!

    Until next time, keep the lint out of your bore.

    I really DID laugh at the pocket cat! I could get mine to sit on my shoulder but he would never stay in that pocket!


    “The rifle is a weapon. Let there be no mistake about that. It is a tool of power, and thus dependent completely upon the moral stature of its user.”
    Col. Jeff Cooper
Sign In or Register to comment.
Magazine Cover

GET THE MAGAZINE Subscribe & Save

Temporary Price Reduction

SUBSCRIBE NOW

Give a Gift   |   Subscriber Services

PREVIEW THIS MONTH'S ISSUE

GET THE NEWSLETTER Join the List and Never Miss a Thing.

Get the top Guns & Ammo stories delivered right to your inbox every week.