A shooting. 10 months later.

JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior MemberPosts: 6,104 Senior Member
On 12/20/17, I was involved in an officer involved shooting. This defense portion of the forum may glean some info and perspective from this, or maybe not. In either case I want to share this experience to highlight a couple things—one most importantly bring prior preparation as a whole. 

Background:

Call for service. Individual walking through a neighborhood discharging a handgun and knocking on doors making disturbed comments to homeowners about hallucinated hostiles.  It was 10:30 PM, residential area, street lights. 

Arrival:

I understand this is a police action.  But for all intent and purpose, the 10 seconds leading up to the shooting could be anyone in anytown, USA on their property. 

I was first on scene, followed closely by three others. An approach plan was ad hoc’ed and executed.  Approach was made from about 75 yards away from a concealed position relative to the target location.  The location of the suspect was presumed, but factually unknown. 

Approach:

Approach was on foot, whispers and hand signals only. Necessary use of weapon light (I deployed with my AR15) only. About 40 yards from the target location we heard a subject yelling unintelligible things very loudly.  We figured out his position and began our targeted approach.  He was concealed within an alcove at the front of a house by the front door.  We established our best positions of advantage in preparation for verbally challenging the suspect. It wasn’t known if he was still armed. 

Contact:

I called out and verbally challenged the suspect, still concealed from view. At this point my rifle light was activated. Upon calling to the suspect, he produced a revolver blindlybwaiving it (he couldn’t see us yet) and came into view.  Lowered the revolver for a moment, then made eye contact with us and began raising it again. A single volley from all officers occurred (about 8 rounds). Two rifles and a Glock 17.  The threat stopped and reassessment occurred as we approached to dominate his position and secure his weapon. Medical aid was rendered. He survives to this day. 

Takeaway:

The very important aspect of this is training and practice. If you shoot paper on a bench all the time you are wholly and unequivocally unprepared for a self defense shooting.  Targets move and adapt to you.  Paper doesn’t.  Force-on-force training is available to all these days.  Do it. See the difference. 

Next is training in fundamentals.  I was about 22 feet away.  With an AR15 that’s in mechanical offset territory.  It had to be accounted for. This is also a practice thing.  

Next is mindset.  If this were on your property—especially rural areas where deputies are a long ways away—and you are pressed into a confrontation for any myriad of reasons do you have the prepared mindset?  Less for the moment and more so for the days/weeks/months after?  Are you willing to speak with mental health professionals?

Also, he survived. 6 “center mass” impacts.  Three of them 5.56 ammo.  Bullets don’t always do what you think they will do. Train accordingly and educate yourself about terminal ballistics. Become a student of your gun craft. 

Like I said, this was an LE response, but in the “moment” the experience is little different than anyone else who is in a self defense situation.  If you possess or carry a gun, you’re in the gun craft of being lethal and being efficient. Training and practice is the ONLY path to proficiency.  Bar none.  Take classes that explain how articulating why you did what you did, too—and make contacts with self-defense attorneys specifically. 

I don’t mind more detailed conversation in private messages.  Be safe. 

Cheers

Jason
“There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
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Replies

  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 3,457 Senior Member
    A grateful community there I'm sure. Im glad no wrong people were hurt or had to deal with a fatality.

    As a civilian, I don't take the notion of getting combat training for myself seriously. I understand others do and that's fine. The one time I was threatened with what could be interpreted as lethal force my mind set became instantly resistive. Hopefully that will be enough to survive and or escape.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,288 Senior Member
    Wow. Been wondering where you've been.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    Wow. Been wondering where you've been.
    I’ve been busy with a lot of stuff. Plus an extended social media disconnect is refreshing. Haha. 
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,288 Senior Member
    So you quit face***k? Good for you!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,564 Senior Member
    Feel like talking about the shot placement and ballistics?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • FFLshooterFFLshooter Member Posts: 932 Senior Member
    Did y’all find out if the guy was hopped up on drugs or suffering from mental issues?
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 10,810 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Feel like talking about the shot placement and ballistics?
    Did y’all find out if the guy was hopped up on drugs or suffering from mental issues?
    Yep, more info please.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,099 Senior Member
    I am just glad you came out of it ok and there were no other injuries-- aside from the assailant.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,683 Senior Member
    Sorry that happened to you, but I’m glad you were there to handle the situation.  

    Good insights from he actual encounter.  I strive to train, and definitely need to spend more time in the force on force area.  Thanks for the reminder.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 8,570 Senior Member
    Glad things turned out well for the good guys.  Thanks for doing what you do.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,990 Senior Member
    Good police work, you all went home unscathed and the nut with a gun was neutralized. 

    Anyone figure out what his motivations were to go cuckoo. He is lucky he went to a hospital and not the morgue. 




    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    Big Chief said:
    Good police work, you all went home unscathed and the nut with a gun was neutralized. 

    Anyone figure out what his motivations were to go cuckoo. He is lucky he went to a hospital and not the morgue. 




    Altered mental status thanks to some hallucinogenic narcotics. 
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Feel like talking about the shot placement and ballistics?

    Sure thing. 


    Before that, I need to add a couple of VERY important aspects of the shooting:


    1.  Your target WILL be moving. In my case, the suspect was confined to a small area with lateral movement limited to a few feet and no reverse motion.  Yet, when it was all said and done the suspect was able to move both on his own and influenced by gunfire sufficient enough to cause points of impact from our gunfire in places not directly intended.  In any case, if you aren’t practicing defensive shooting with moving targets you’re doing yourself a grave disservice. 


    2.  Light. Have it. Plenty of it. And use it. At the time of the shooting my rifle was equipped with a 400 lumen light. It’s now equipped with a 1500 lumen SureFire light. If you fall into the “that’s too much light I’ll blind myself” camp, find a new camp. Train with light and it won’t be your foe.  Take low light and zero light training. 


    To the shot placement and ballistics...


    I don’t know my colleague’s points of aim. We’ve had some AAR discussions, but I wasn’t looking through their eyeballs. My first shot was sternum with the torso quartered away somewhat. The bullet entered and passed clean through, puncturing the right lung. In the time between my first and second shot, my colleagues discharged a few rounds. One of the rounds—a 9mm Speer Gold Dot—struck the suspect on the right hip. He twisted clockwise due to reacting to the shot and my second shot struck the suspect on his right elbow. It obliterated his elbow and was nearly a gunshot amputation.  Surgeons completed that amputation. 


    My colleagues shot the suspect in the center of mass and hip area. All rifle rounds were through-and-through. Pistols rounds stayed in the suspect.  There were no misses. The suspect’s heart was not punctured. 


    The rifle rounds were Winchester Ranger 55gr soft point LE ammo. The rifle was a standard issued Bushmaster XM-15. 

    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,564 Senior Member
    edited October 2018 #15
    You mentioned 8 rounds fired (I believe without misses) and 6 impacts on the subject “center of mass”. 

    You described 1 rifle round through the right lung and one in the elbow. Then, a pistol round through the right hip. Do you know where/what the other rounds struck?

    ”Center of Mass” is obviously too vague and we do t learn any terminal ballistics from that. 

    I’m not trying to critique your shooting.  Trying to let the folks here learn more about terminal ballistics. 

    Kinda like I do with animals. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,564 Senior Member
    For reference, maybe?


    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,564 Senior Member
    edited October 2018 #17
    Are you running an optic on your AR?

    Were/Are you able to utilize this incident to bring to light and fix any departmental training deficiencies?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    You mentioned 8 rounds fired (I believe without misses) and 6 impacts on the subject “center of mass”. 

    You described 1 rifle round through the right lung and one in the elbow. Then, a pistol round through the right hip. Do you know where/what the other rounds struck?

    ”Center of Mass” is obviously too vague and we do t learn any terminal ballistics from that. 

    I’m not trying to critique your shooting.  Trying to let the folks here learn more about terminal ballistics. 

    Kinda like I do with animals. 
    Sure. 

    This picture is an approximation obviously. The eighth round was in a leg. I can’t recall which one. My two are in red. 



    His right arm was raised at the time which put the arm impact on centerline with the chest shot. 

    I spoke to officers who who were at the hospital with him and they relayed to me that surgical staff ultimately were “surprised” how minimal the wounding was. I’d have to concur by how very much alive and able he was after being shot.  Had my shot not disabled his arm he would have picked up the gun for a second try.  

    The rifle rounds expanded none, tumbled none, and passed clean  through (evidenced by the .22 cal holes in the wall behind him).  It was only about 7 yards—damn near muzzle velocity— but I nevertheless expected different. 

    Since he did not die there are no post-mortem images at my disposal.  But, he was only in the hospital for about 2.5 weeks if that’s any indication of the poor wounding. 

    Rifle:

    Sights were standard iron sights. Bare bones rifle other than the light.   My personal rifle which I am also qualified with was not with me at the time. I was swapping out the handguard so it was out of service.  My personal weapon has a Trijicon MRO on it. 

    I’ll see if I can get ahold of any photos that may have been taken pre-op, but if any they probably aren’t very revealing. If I do get them, I’d share them via personal email or text message. If I’m lucky our detectives collected X-ray and MRI images into evidence. 
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Are you running an optic on your AR?

    Were/Are you able to utilize this incident to bring to light and fix any departmental training deficiencies?
    Yes. One primary takeaway was a severe lack (read: none) of low light and no light rifle shooting. Added to that is the lack of weapon lights on issued patrol rifles.  The colleague to my right (who did not shoot) was thankful I had my rifle light. He commented that he normally deploys his pistol because it has an issued light and he only grabbed his rifle because I told him to when we arrived on scene.  I’m sure other officers leave the rifle behind because of no attached light, too. 

    The matter STILL hasn’t been corrected and I’m working on it. 
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 3,457 Senior Member
    Having experimented and witnessed rifle rounds shot at various objects including steel plate, the non-expansion and no tumble straight through penetration is no surprise to me at that range.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,564 Senior Member
    Did the pistol bullets expand and have there been other departmental shootings with that rifle ammo that exhibited the same failures?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Did the pistol bullets expand and have there been other departmental shootings with that rifle ammo that exhibited the same failures?
    Pistol bullets did expand. They seemed to have performed as designed. 

    We have used Winchester Ranger pistol ammo in the past and it failed to expand at close range. 

    Also in a previous shooting I was witness to, the rifle rounds passed through with little or no deformation as well. Those were Remington soft point LE rounds.  Soft point rounds aren’t stellar. 
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,564 Senior Member
    Any movement on a better rifle round?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • LMLarsenLMLarsen Senior Member Posts: 8,337 Senior Member
    Thank you for sharing this episode and personal AAR. Glad as hell you’re ok. 
    “A gun is a tool, no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.”

    NRA Endowment Member
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,564 Senior Member
    What is your departmental qual target and course of fire?  If I may ask. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,564 Senior Member
    edited October 2018 #26
    We use a TQ-15 as an official qual target. But, shooting the qualification course of fire is not considered “training”. It is an administrative obligation that is completed as quickly as possible in order to get to actual “training. 

    For that, outside of “Shoot/No-Shoot” Targets in live fire CQB or SIMS training..........We use IPSC targets and only the “A” Zone is an acceptable POI and most times, only the top half of the “A” Zone. 

    All drills.....whether static or moving, timed or not, require an “A” Zone or “Half A” Zone hit. The standards for that never change. 

    Misses result in a “No-Time” for the Drill and/or a PT penalty where the shooter and entire team team pay for all hits outside the “A” with a pre-designated number of calisthenics. 

    It does not bode well to make everyone pay for your mistakes. Good reason to make the shots count. 

    Remember, qualing is NOT training. It’s an administrative duty. 

    (Side Note:  If we don’t happen to have IPSC Targets available, we will draw the “A” Zone on a TQ-15 to maintain the same level of accuracy in shot placement.)
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,564 Senior Member
    My challenge to myself this fiscal year.........to shoot EVERY day. Or a minimum of 5 out of 7 days. 

    I’m doing pretty good at that so far. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Any movement on a better rifle round?
    Eh...sorta. Our SWAT Team uses Hornady 62gr Barrier TAP ammo. In a hint of irony it is a bonded soft point as well. I forgot to mention the Winchester Ranger LE 5.56 is a bonded round too. 

    One of my colleagues involved with me is SWAT and utilized said Hornady TAP ammo and it resulted in the same pass-through as the Winchester. So unfortunately we don’t even have a dissimilar projectile comparison. 

    I’m not a policy maker nor to I have much political clout at my department. I’ve spoken to the Chief about the possibility of looking into different ammo based on nationwide LE shooting stats.  Nothing yet.   

    Not to say the ammo we have now isn’t lethal, but there’s no harm in gathering information to draw comparison from. 
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    cpj said:
    Glad you are ok, and thanks for sharing ACTUAL results, rather than waving your dick around claiming ________is the superior “one shot stop” round. 
    Truly. Because there is none. Except maybe a 120mm sabot. But even then you still gotta hit the dude.  B)
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 3,457 Senior Member
    I think the Winchester round and the Hornady also would expand nicely on a deer. Thick fur over hard muscle containing a 55 gallon drum of semi fluid mass compared to thin membrane over soft muscle containing a five gallon pale or less of semi fluid mass.

    Rounds intended for varmint hunting may be better as duty ammo.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    edited October 2018 #31
    I think the Winchester round and the Hornady also would expand nicely on a deer. Thick fur over hard muscle containing a 55 gallon drum of semi fluid mass compared to thin membrane over soft muscle containing a five gallon pale or less of semi fluid mass.

    Rounds intended for varmint hunting may be better as duty ammo.
    Varmint bullets don’t have much barrier defeating quality. I’d like to see the Barnes 62 or 70gr TSX testing in gel.  Solid copper hollow point expanding. 
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
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