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A shooting. 10 months later.

2

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  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,580 Senior Member
    edited October 2018 #32
    Sucks when a third party, that wasn't even there, gets to question every little aspect and decision you made on the fly. Even if, as in your case, the guy was clearly whacked out of his gourd! Required investigations often make the cop feel like the bad guy -- like somewhere, you did something wrong (even when you didn't).

    One shot stops and all those percentages in books........... I really wish the bad guys would read the same damn books! :D

    Anyway...

    These are the rounds I'd like to see the results to:
    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018002174/black-hills-ammunition-556x45mm-nato-70-grain-hornady-gmx-hollow-point-boat-tail-lead-free-box-of-50

    Supposedly, they have barrier defeating qualities and penetrate 17-22 inches in ballistic gel. Although, where do you find 17-22 inches of solid muscle on a human? (pass-through?) :/

    They seem to show promise... but I've never used them.

    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,563 Senior Member
    Spk said:
    Sucks when a third party, that wasn't even there, gets to question every little aspect and decision you made on the fly. Even if, as in your case, the guy was clearly whacked out of his gourd! Required investigations often make the cop feel like the bad guy -- like somewhere, you did something wrong (even when you didn't).

    One shot stops and all those percentages in books........... I really wish the bad guys would read the same damn books! :D

    Anyway...

    These are the rounds I'd like to see the results to:
    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018002174/black-hills-ammunition-556x45mm-nato-70-grain-hornady-gmx-hollow-point-boat-tail-lead-free-box-of-50

    Supposedly, they have barrier defeating qualities and penetrate 17-22 inches in ballistic gel. Although, where do you find 17-22 inches of solid muscle on a human? (pass-through?) :/

    They seem to show promise... but I've never used them.

    Gel penetration depth isn’t always indicative of human body penetration depth. It can elude ton potential, though.  The GMX is basically Hornady’s competition to Barnes bullets. Probably a solid performer. 
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    Be good to have a national data base of incident analysis if one doesn't already exist. 
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,563 Senior Member
    The FBI would be that source potentially. 
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    I wonder how long it would take a couple interested officers to study the shooting results of all incidents involving AR 15's?

    Likely a tough compromise between barrier penetration, accuracy, expansion, cost, etc.. I think Ive read that rifling twist can also effect performance on target impact.

    The rifles themselves could be saving lives almost daily. With all the recent investment in ammunition technology, it would be good make the good better.
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,626 Senior Member
    I'm a little late to the game here, but - first off - thank you for sharing this.  It's always nice to get facts about these things.  I'm curious to know if there was any blowback politically or media-wise? I'm assuming you've since been released to discuss the matter, but was there an attempt at a lawsuit? Did you notice any slant in the reporting of the shooting? 
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,573 Senior Member
    Thanks for sharing this real-world data.  Thanks also to those of you who have asked pointed follow-up questions.  Great info.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,563 Senior Member
    edited March 2019 #39
    Zee said:
    Any movement on a better rifle round?
    Sorry this update is months late. 

    Short term, no. Long term, maybe. The department heads are draconian when it comes to ammunition. Basic HP’s for pistols and soft points for rifles are “good enough” for them, and the rest of us by extension—unwittingly of course. There’s also an issue of very few voices demanding change.  Our chief may be stepping down and we’re without a permanent Lead Firearms Instructor, so making change is difficult at the moment. 

    We’d like to T/E 5.56 in Speer Gold Dot, Barnes VOR-TX, and similar Federal offerings. Price is always an annoying but persistent thorn to deal with. 
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,563 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    What is your departmental qual target and course of fire?  If I may ask. 
    Target is a B21-E. The blue man with a hand in his hip. The course of fire is a measly 24 rounds total with strings of fire at 50, 25, 15 and 7 yards. It’s pathetic. 
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,890 Senior Member
    JasonMPD said:


    This picture is an approximation obviously. The eighth round was in a leg. I can’t recall which one. My two are in red. 




    I'm sure the perfect frontal view of our demo target here doesn't tell the whole story, but those blue handgun hits look just like what I earn maybe half my paycheck teaching right-handed folks to not do:

    Rounds low:  trigger slap on the instant of seeing the desired sight picture.

    Rounds left:  Some combination of gun arm not locked out, gun hand thumb not cranked in tight, trigger finger not pulling straight to the rear, support hand not sufficiently involved in the process, quite likely ceasing to correct the sight picture at the final instant of ignition.

    No cure for any of that but quality practice and coaching.

    As to your rifle hits. . .

    I find queries regarding 5.56 duty ammo to be particularly frustrating, (A.) because it can be seemingly constructed to do ANYTHING, and (B.) because end-users without a clear understanding of bullet design seemingly want it to do EVERYTHING.

    There really isn't much wrong with the Vietnam-era, tumble-and-fragment M193 loading, so long as you accept that it's not a Grade A barrier penetrator, and that it's not going to give you the same cloverleaf groups as match ammo out of your $4,000 scoped .308.  It was pretty much tailor made for situations like yours, with the saving grace of being cheap.

    Then there's the camp that wants better ability to punch through cars to reach the violent subjects inside. . .with 60 grain bullets.  I've got some unfortunate news for those guys about this thing called "momentum". . .

    Then the soft or hollow points that give straight-line penetration with the traditional mushroom of duty pistol rounds.  The technology seems to be there, but GREAT ELMER'S GHOST!  THE COST!!!  Sounds like you had a round that was supposed to do this, but didn't

    And I haven't even started on how the reduced velocities of the little SBR's will take what you thought you knew about your chosen round's terminal effects and throw it completely out the window.

    Makes me want to just put lights on .30-30's, shoot 170 grain flat points, and call it a day.

    I am mostly 100% with you on lights - they and a sling are the two most important bolt-ons to a rifle.  All else is window dressing.  I would say that brighter is absolutely better on a patrol rifle that mostly plays outdoors.  On the entry guns, however, there is probably a possibility of having too much of a good thing.

    For the red dots, lately I've been fiddling with true co-witness mount height and leaving the irons flipped up at all times.  The idea is in low light, but not so dark that you can't still ID your target, the dot is there.  At the moment you power up your monster flashlight, however, your red dot gets washed out, but your irons now jump out and say HOWDY!  Whatever the light, you've got workable sights.

    At any rate, it sounds like you & your buddies pieced a plan together, executed successfully, and all went home safely with some post adrenaline shakes and some constructive ideas on training and ammo selection.  Maybe not a good day, but a long way from a really bad one.




    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • Great OutdoorsGreat Outdoors Member Posts: 326 Member
    I'm surprised there wasn't a shotgun deployed by at least one of the officers- it is still a basic part of LE work in our area.

    Thanks for the after action report and follow up. 


  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,563 Senior Member
    I'm surprised there wasn't a shotgun deployed by at least one of the officers- it is still a basic part of LE work in our area.

    Thanks for the after action report and follow up. 


    A few old guys still carry them in their cruisers, but I don’t (except a beanbag shotgun...but totally different thing). Shotguns suffer SERIOUS deficiencies beyond 20-25 yards with buckshot and with slugs the backdrop is a serious-serious consideration. Also, shotguns are basically a dumpster fire to reload under even the stress of a harmless shot timer for most shooters. 

    Among several other considerations in favor of the rifle. 
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    This has been a great thread, Jason. Many thanks for sharing it, and thank you for your service to a public that has no clue what you guys have to put up with on a daily basis.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,496 Senior Member
    JasonMPD said:
    I'm surprised there wasn't a shotgun deployed by at least one of the officers- it is still a basic part of LE work in our area.

    Thanks for the after action report and follow up. 


    A few old guys still carry them in their cruisers, but I don’t (except a beanbag shotgun...but totally different thing). Shotguns suffer SERIOUS deficiencies beyond 20-25 yards with buckshot and with slugs the backdrop is a serious-serious consideration. Also, shotguns are basically a dumpster fire to reload under even the stress of a harmless shot timer for most shooters. 

    Among several other considerations in favor of the rifle. 
    A shotgun is the “Hand of God” with slugs.  If you can hit the target. 

    I have decided, from life lessons, that a shotgun outdoors with anything but slugs......is a bird gun. 

    Inside, you might can get away with buckshot as long as precision is not needed. 

    But, for ease of operation, recoil, and deployment........I’ll take a Carbine over a shotgun any day. 


    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,496 Senior Member
    Of course, had your first hit been with a slug from a 12ga............ya just never know. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,563 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Of course, had your first hit been with a slug from a 12ga............ya just never know. 
    Haha. True. 
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,453 Senior Member
    edited June 2019 #48
    Never liked a gauge.  We weren't allowed to carry slugs; never worked for an agency that allowed such. Shotguns work and are intimidating, but I never liked them much.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,496 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    Never liked a gauge.  We weren't allowed to carry slugs; never worked for an agency that allowed such. Shotguns work and are intimidating, but I never liked them much.
    Why no slugs?!? That’s ****. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,782 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Gene L said:
    Never liked a gauge.  We weren't allowed to carry slugs; never worked for an agency that allowed such. Shotguns work and are intimidating, but I never liked them much.
    Why no slugs?!? That’s ****. 
    Well, when he was carrying the rabbit eared SxS on the top of the stagecoach to defend against highwaymen, bandits and marauding bands of savages- the Marshal did not trust these newfangled self contained metallic cartridges or slugs. 
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,563 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    Never liked a gauge.  We weren't allowed to carry slugs; never worked for an agency that allowed such. Shotguns work and are intimidating, but I never liked them much.
    My department is the opposite. Slugs are all we’re allowed to carry. 

    Not that slugs are the answer 100% of the time, but that’s the hand our policy deals us to play with. 
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,496 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Gene L said:
    Never liked a gauge.  We weren't allowed to carry slugs; never worked for an agency that allowed such. Shotguns work and are intimidating, but I never liked them much.
    Why no slugs?!? That’s ****. 
    Well, when he was carrying the rabbit eared SxS on the top of the stagecoach to defend against highwaymen, bandits and marauding bands of savages- the Marshal did not trust these newfangled self contained metallic cartridges or slugs. 
    Now that...............funny. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Johnny rebJohnny reb Member Posts: 700 Senior Member
    Glad everything turned out for those involved. It’s amazing what a human body can take and keep on going. 
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,453 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Gene L said:
    Never liked a gauge.  We weren't allowed to carry slugs; never worked for an agency that allowed such. Shotguns work and are intimidating, but I never liked them much.
    Why no slugs?!? That’s ****. 
    Not many people can shoot them accurately enough and our shotguns had no rear sights. That's why we switched to patrol rifles, one of the first agencies in GA to do so.*  Part of the reason was because I don't like shotguns.  I much prefer patrol rifles over a shotgun, slugs or buckshot. And slugs bounce around a lot if you miss. My old buddy in NC, a retired LEO and one of the finest shot in NC competes with them (in senior games, held up there) and can get hits at 100 yards easily out of Mossberg 500, but he is exceptional with guns, rifles, and pistols.  I don't think he has rifle sights, but I might be wrong.

    My one and only pump gun is a S&W police gun, I think a Model 3000, with rifle sights, but I've never shot a slug out of it and only a few birdshot.  Just don't care for pump guns..

    LEOs in general (I know a broad statement) just don't understand pump guns and generally don't train enough with them to get familiar with how they operate.  I heard in NYC, they issued doubles to their officers because it was point and shoot. Also, in training, slugs are quite expensive to shoot much.  When I went to LEO Firearms Training Officer school, we shot birdshot...slugs were not in the budget.

    *On 9-11, we were on the range early for familiarity training on our Ruger Mini 14s, newly acquired.  Heard the news on the radio...at first I thought it was an accident, then the second one and I knew it was a terrorist attack.  Now just about every agency either issues patrol rifles (ours now are ARs) or allows their officers to carry their own.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,563 Senior Member
    The rifle is the dominant tool compared to a shotgun for almost all applications. 

    Im in the process of trying to get command to loosen up on the “no magnified” optics on patrol rifles. 

    A quality 1-8x optic and a small MRDS on a 45-degree canted mount for backup and danger close stuff is what I want to run with. 
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,496 Senior Member
    I am running a 1-6x Vortex Razor on a 14” M4 and I like that scope. 

    Just started running this Nightforce 1-8x on my Colt 901 and am pleased with it so far. 




    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,722 Senior Member
    Aaaaagh! You don't have backup iron sights!  What happens if you break that fancy scope?
    Overkill is underrated.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,496 Senior Member
    edited June 2019 #58
    Transition?
    🤷‍♂️
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,722 Senior Member
    edited June 2019 #59
    You saying you're a woman trapped in a carney's body?

    And what does that have to do with shooting?
    Overkill is underrated.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,496 Senior Member

    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,722 Senior Member
    Ugh.  Somehow I'm sure you have a pair of shorts like those somewhere...

    Overkill is underrated.
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