Florida city commissioner shoots, kills alleged shoplifter

Big Chief

He stole a hatchet, but was trying to leave the Army/Navy store. I don't think this will fly as a SYG shoot at all.

Been different if the shoplifter was brandishing it and threatening him, but not the case.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-city-commissioner-shoots-kills-alleged-shoplifter-surveillance-video-shows

Big Chief

I don't read it that way. He wasn't being threatened and the dude was leaving.....................

"A person is justified in using or threatening to use force, except deadly force"

zorba

"treason"

Big Chief

In fact almost completely out the door. I don't think a $10 hatchet is a felony...........a misdemeanor. 

earlyagain

Regardless of the law, shooting a fleeing thief seems over the line. Especially so if a firearm was discharged in a congested area.

Big Chief

I think the commissioner is gonna be toast.

Big Chief

Shoplifting is a misdemeanor up to a certain dollar amount in FL.........(Watch Live PD) it wasn't a robbery it was shoplifting.

So what's next someone tries to skip out a pizzeria without paying for their pizza........then the owner should chase him down and shoot him dead?

"Under Florida Statute §812.014, retail theft can be classified as either petit theft or grand theft depending on the value of the alleged stolen merchandise.

The penalties for a shoplifting charge depend on the value of the alleged stolen merchandise and the defendant’s prior criminal history. If the value of the alleged stolen merchandise is less than $100, the defendant is charged with petit theft in the second degree—a second degree misdemeanor punishable by up to 60 days in jail and/or up to a $500 fine. If you have been previously convicted of any theft offense, your second degree misdemeanor charge will be upgraded to a first degree misdemeanor charge. If you have previously been convicted two or more times for any theft offense, your misdemeanor charge will be upgraded to a third degree felony charge.

If the value of the alleged stolen merchandise is more than $100 but less than $300, the defendant is charged with petit theft in the first degree—a first degree misdemeanor punishable by up to a year in county jail, a year of probation, and/or a $1000 fine. In addition, if you are charged with either first degree or second degree petit theft, Florida law now requires the suspension of your driver’s license for up to six months for your first conviction and one year for each subsequent conviction.

If the value of the alleged stolen merchandise is more than $300 but less than $5000, the defendant is charged with grand theft third degree—a third degree felony punishable by up to five years in state prison and/or up to a $5000 fine."

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/shoplifting-in-florida-what-is-the-law-30478

Big Chief

And the owner knew the criminal history of the perp.........how?

If he had used the hatchet and threatened him and tried to ROB the stores till, that would have been a different story.

Big Chief

It often shows them speaking with store security to determine the dollar amount of the theft and what charges are brought against the perp.

I was addressing whether the owner knew if it was a shoplifting misdemeanor or a felony he had no way of knowing and even so his life was not threatened.

Sorry the guy may have been a scumbag dirtball, but this doesn't look like a good shoot to me.

It was a theft, shoplifting...... not an armed robbery. 

Big Chief

Would you have shot a man to death over a shoplifted $10 hatchet if you were a store owner as he was trying to get out the front door? I wouldn't.

I think even if he was within the bounds of the law he was wrong to do it.

I'll be following this to see what the DA comes up with.

I'm curious what Jason and other LEOs on here think about this.

FFLshooter

That was a $1000 hatchet, doncha know?

JasonMPD

It sounds/looks like a petit retail theft. A misdemeanor.  

In Florida, Robbery is taking of property by force or threat of force.  Pulling away from a merchant attempting to detain a shoplifter is NOT force of threat thereof.  It’s “resisting a merchant”—a misdemeanor. 

At face value from the footage the thief did not threaten the Commissioner with the hatchet. It’s up to the lawyers now, but this looks like a bad shoot. 

And in Florida there is no statutory allowance for using deadly force to protect your property.  In the case of a robbery, the statutory allowance for deadly force is to stop the violent act of the robbery, not recover the property. 

Big Chief

Maybe I'm off base and don't see it like others.............but I wouldn't have shot him from what I can discern from the news story and video.

Big Chief

Thanks Jason, it is more clear to me now. I wasn't sure how the law worked and the terminology used, but just felt something wasn't right about this shooting.

I guess we will all find out how the DA rules on it to prosecute or not in a few days according to the article.

Old Ron

Not hearing what was said or implied .... only thing I know he is dead & won't be stealing again . I have seen hands cut off in the public square for stealing . Not a lot of theft in those countries .

earlyagain

I didn't watch the video. Reading the posts I was thinking I missed something critical. Re-reading now, maybe not. 

For me, there's a difference between being angry at thieves and shooting them. 

Jermanator

I have had hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of crap stolen off my jobs. We are starting another tomorrow where I do not expect to have what I put there to survive a week. It is the 5th time I have replaced crap there (thanks people with mortgages). I HATE THIEVES!!! I wish they would die.

That said, unless one is violent... law or no law... I am not going to shoot one. Especially over a $10 hatchet that was probably $5 (or less) wholesale.

(Wow-- I agree with Big Chief for once!)

orchidman

I wonder if he was related to Elizabeth Warren and was just trying to obtain a traditional weapon ..................

Big Chief

Look at the last of the 4 videos here. @ about the 6:14 mark. Is that the hatchet in his right hand? It is on the ground after he is shot.

If so and if he threatened him with it, that may change things around on if he made a legal shoot or not. Hard to tell for me.

Again, the state DA will decide.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gdczz60tt8jiu29/AAAyZ-_8yWqoEe88AYifeSA4a?dl=0&preview=angle+4.mp4

Oh there are 4 videos released

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gdczz60tt8jiu29/AAAyZ-_8yWqoEe88AYifeSA4a?dl=0

 

Old Ron

Looks like a good shoot to me .

earlyagain

We don't have the benifit of the shooters explanation of events either. Even with my predisposed opinion, a video is not the summation of all conclusive evidence. The assumption of otherwise is creating consequential misunderstandings in our society.

Gene L

In GA, shoplifting is a separate law from robbery, although some acts have things in common.  In GA, the shop owner would be toast.

There is Law, which is interpreted by a judge and jury.  I don't see how a judge or  jury would take the side of the shooter.  In GA, there is no law to protect your property by use of force.  You have to be threatened with force to use force to protect your self.

jaywapti

This is a great discussion, having read and watched all the videos i can only add my personal opinion, If I was not threatened i would not have shot him, depending on the amount of bystanders and there proximity to the person I might have drawn my gun and threatened him. Case in point I was in the local liquor store ( part of a major food store) when i person took some bottles and started to walk out the door, when i started to draw my gun the clerk who is a friend of mine told me not to and just let him go, the store policy is not to approach just call 911 and try to get a description and licence number if possible, the man in question is mentally handicapped well known to the store and police. The question is " do you want to take a life if your not threatened over a cheap item "

JAY

Gene L

Never testify in your own defense for  it entitles prosecution to cross examine, and they're far more skilled in questioning.  The shoplifter as I understand it was trying to leave.  At any rate, should a man lose his life over a ten-buck hatchet?  If it goes to trial, and I can't see why any attorney would fight such an unwinnable case, it will still cost the shop owner tens of thousands of dollars.  A $10 hatchet is not worth a man's life.

Fisheadgib

I don't know what video some of you saw but the one that I watched showed a guy with a hatchet in his right hand which was also holding the door open and a guy with a gun ran up to him and grabbed his sleeve and the hatchet was against the door during the entire period that the shoplifter was trying to pull away. I can't see anyone being able to spin that as self defense. The thief was clearly trying to get away.

bisley

It all depends upon the judge and jury, whatever the final evidence is. The local DA, being elected (I think), will take the temperature of his constituency, and go from there. The relatives of the robber will press the case, if they can find a pro-bono lawyer or a 'hired gun' who sees a big settlement in a civil suit.

Or, maybe they will keep investigating until the answer is clear cut. We just have to wait and see what comes out.

zorba

Which is how it should be.

Diver43

Wambli Ska said:

bisley said:

It all depends upon the judge and jury, whatever the final evidence is. The local DA, being elected (I think), will take the temperature of his constituency, and go from there. The relatives of the robber will press the case, if they can find a pro-bono lawyer or a 'hired gun' who sees a big settlement in a civil suit.

Or, maybe they will keep investigating until the answer is clear cut. We just have to wait and see what comes out.

In Florida you can not be sued if the shooting is deemed justified.  Trayvon's family never even tried.

Wambli Ska said:

bisley said:

It all depends upon the judge and jury, whatever the final evidence is. The local DA, being elected (I think), will take the temperature of his constituency, and go from there. The relatives of the robber will press the case, if they can find a pro-bono lawyer or a 'hired gun' who sees a big settlement in a civil suit.

Or, maybe they will keep investigating until the answer is clear cut. We just have to wait and see what comes out.

In Florida you can not be sued if the shooting is deemed justified.  Trayvon's family never even tried.

Yea, but they got over a million from the housing association.

breamfisher

Wambli Ska said:

I meant the shooter can not be sued.

Maybe not, but if this guy's store is a separate entity, it could be sued.  Possibly out of existence.

timc

Right or wrong the thief deserved it $1 to $10,000,000. People who think they can take what doesn’t belong to them deserve what they get. Better not have me on that jury, he will walk!

Big Chief

There should be an announcement made today from the DA as to any charges being brought against the shooter or not.