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SCOTUS and Timbs v Indiana

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  • FFLshooterFFLshooter Member Posts: 1,057 Senior Member
    About the same thing that Nazis following Hitlers lead because “they were just doing their job” does. Nuremberg Trials.... I’m curious, when you were a cop, did you arrest a lot of people that didn’t break the law but pissed you off so you wrote up an arrest report for “disorderly conduct “?
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,743 Senior Member
    No, I didn't.  I don't care for anyone comparing cops (or Trump) to Nazis. It's a straw man, sounds like hippies and antifa to me.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,398 Senior Member
     
    Burden of proof is on the accused. Seizures are typically not subject to judicial review. Often have to sue the PD to get your property back unless they're feeling especially generous.
    And that sets our system of jurisprudence on its head. That is now how the legal system has been set up in this country. The accuser(the state) must prove the crime to a jury beyond reasonable doubt. What you describe, burden of proof is on the accused, is the vile crap practiced by dictators, lords, and kings, that brought about our system which was first used in England. If ya want that kind of system, then go where it is practiced. It has no place in the U.S.A.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,398 Senior Member
    Off topic, Mike but did you ever watch the John Adams series some years back? I was actually quite surprised at how good it was. The actor that played Jefferson was spot on IMO. Also good was David Morse who played Washington. Really brought those Founders to life.


    No. I didn't watch that one. I guess it wasn't available on Dish Network, or I missed it. I've read a lot of books by and about Jefferson and the other founders writings over the years, though. They set up one helluva system of government for the new country. Too bad we couldn't keep it.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • FFLshooterFFLshooter Member Posts: 1,057 Senior Member
    Except it’s not a straw man. It’s exactly what happens when one is “just following orders” blindly.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,743 Senior Member
    You sound like an antifa with all that  Nazi nonsense...next, you'll want to defund ICE.  Or call the Border Control a "gang" like Kamala Harris.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • FFLshooterFFLshooter Member Posts: 1,057 Senior Member
    And now you just sound like an old, bitter man set in his prejudiced ways. Not surprising at all. To not acknowledge the similarities in all aspects of just “following orders” despite the morality of it is ignorance at best. 
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,743 Senior Member
    I always believe in following the laws, not blindly following orders outside the law.  You betray your true loyalties if you keep talking like this.  The worst scenario in the world is where individuals following their own sense of flawed morality outside the laws.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • FFLshooterFFLshooter Member Posts: 1,057 Senior Member
    So I’m curious now, do you then think that the violations of our 2A rights are justified because they have been written as law by egregious politicians?
  • FFLshooterFFLshooter Member Posts: 1,057 Senior Member
    Also. I have no loyalties or obligations to anyone. I’m a free man that was placed in this world without consent to myself. My law for living is to survive without causing harm or inconvenience to anyone else. No more, no less.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,743 Senior Member
    So I’m curious now, do you then think that the violations of our 2A rights are justified because they have been written as law by egregious politicians?
    What violations specifically are you talking about?  Laws written by politicians are subject to review by courts and up to SCOTUS.  Remember Heller?  Without laws, we would be in worse shape 2nd A wise than we are now.  Let Gerry Brown follow his own moral compass regarding gun control?
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • FFLshooterFFLshooter Member Posts: 1,057 Senior Member
    How about the AWB, NFA act, restrictions on firearms and accessories etc... I can go on for hours. I know not all of these are laws so to speak, but they are violations of our 2A and you have people rotting in prison for putting a potato on the end of their gun and making a YouTube video of it. But yeah, we sure are free.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,743 Senior Member
    A potato on a gun and going to prison?  Can you cite that instance?  If you're not happy with your freedoms you have, either legally change the laws or go somewhere you think you are free/
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • FFLshooterFFLshooter Member Posts: 1,057 Senior Member
    I like this country but dislike the path it is taking. I do all I can with my vote but that only goes so far. And as for the potato thing, that really happened to a kid in his 20’s for making a video showing how a potato and also a 2 liter bottle taped to a gun can suppress it. I don’t know how to link articles, but google is free to use.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,749 Senior Member
    One of the things Im curious about is if it is ruled unconstitutional by SCOTUS.

    Will assets from people like American versions of Elchappo be tied up in probate? Will local jurisdictions continue the practice? If so, will they be subsequently sued?

    Or if its upheld, will some local jurisdictions expand such seizures to include assets of those convicted of crimes unrelated to drug traffic?

    Could be, this whole war on drugs policy has gone too far?
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,743 Senior Member
    We're in a drug jungle with Meth and Cocaine and Heroin flowing into this country.  Something has to be done to limit it and to take power away from the cartels, who control most of the illegal drugs covering us up.  The cartels are the enemy of our country.  Now is not the time to give up on drug laws.  Meth is all over the country, produced here and in Mexico and further south.  Neither heroin nor cocaine can be produced in America...it's all produced outside.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    We're in a drug jungle with Meth and Cocaine and Heroin flowing into this country.  Something has to be done to limit it and to take power away from the cartels, who control most of the illegal drugs covering us up.  The cartels are the enemy of our country.  Now is not the time to give up on drug laws.  Meth is all over the country, produced here and in Mexico and further south.  Neither heroin nor cocaine can be produced in America...it's all produced outside.
    50 years of drug laws have done exactly what? Addiction is up, OD deaths are up, 2M people in prison, unfounded asset forfeiture, gun control proposals are relentless, no knock warrants on innocents, militarization of local cops...I can go on and on. At least the fedgov had the sense to repeal 18A when they realized it was a complete failure. The only thing it achieved was creating the Mob,  and the first federal gun control. 

    Some people can not or will not learn from history. 
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • FFLshooterFFLshooter Member Posts: 1,057 Senior Member
    Not to mention that ending the war on drugs will kill off the idiots and end the power that the cartel has running the drug industry. The best way to promote something and make it popular is by telling a person they can’t have it.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,743 Senior Member
    The caravan now heading this way is partly because of the violence from drug cartels, so there's a reason to try to limit addiction rather than creating a bigger market for dealers and producers..  No one benefits from legalization except the SA cartels.  Right now, we're paying for medical treatment for drug abuse. 
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    The caravan now heading this way is partly because of the violence from drug cartels, so there's a reason to try to limit addiction rather than creating a bigger market for dealers and producers..  No one benefits from legalization except the SA cartels.  Right now, we're paying for medical treatment for drug abuse. 

    How much cartel weed is sold in Colorado or Washington? 

    The cartels only exist because of prohibition. Same is true for the Chicago mob a century ago. When prohibition was repealed, American companies produced booze or it was imported. Legally. 

    Drugs and booze have a huge consumer market. Prohibition laws do nothing to reduce consumption. Prohibition only makes consumption more dangerous to the individual. 

    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,743 Senior Member
    I thought I made it clear that I was talking about imported drugs.  I'm not concerned with pot, although the jury is still out in those states where it's legal...although they have enough other problems it would be hard to determine specific problems related to pot.  Locally produced drugs like meth present another problem, but nothing suggests meth should be legalized.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • FFLshooterFFLshooter Member Posts: 1,057 Senior Member
    Except the fact that nobody should be able to legislate what another person does to their own body or puts in it.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,667 Senior Member
    CaliFFL said:
    Drugs and booze have a huge consumer market. Prohibition laws do nothing to reduce consumption. Prohibition only makes consumption more dangerous to the individual.
    And exact a VERY high price from society in general.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,743 Senior Member
    What do you base your unfounded opinion upon, given that the taxpayer pays for treatments for overdoses and addiction and violent crimes associated with the traffic of illegal drugs? Are you in favor of gang wars?  FFL, I've noticed a shallowness in your reasoning and along with Cali, an acceptance/endorsement of a position of a very liberal Supreme Court judge endorsed by the Dems and the ACLU.  I'm perplexed by this abandonment of conservative values.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,743 Senior Member
    Also, you seem to agree with abortion...not a terrible stance, but I'm not convinced that taxpayer funded abortion (what one does with one's body) is worthy of discussion.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,667 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    What do you base your unfounded opinion upon, given that the taxpayer pays for treatments for overdoses and addiction and violent crimes associated with the traffic of illegal drugs? Are you in favor of gang wars?
    We're already paying for it, and we already have gang wars. Go to Salinas, California if you don't think we have gang wars.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • FFLshooterFFLshooter Member Posts: 1,057 Senior Member
    I never said I’m for abortion, as that’s more than just ones own body. I also never said that I agree with taxpayer money going to help or be used on addicts. I for one believe that people should be left the hell alone, including if they overdose. You bring liberal and conservative views up but neglect to see that picking one side or the other is what’s wrong with this country. There is such thing as not subscribing to any political ideology and having your own thoughts and beliefs on matters. I absolutely do not believe in victimless crimes. I don’t know if you’ve gathered it by now so I’ll spell it out. People need to leave others the hell alone and stop dictating how others should live their life if it’s not hurting or inconveniencing anyone else. Pretty simple premise.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,743 Senior Member
    I know we have a problem with gang wars.  The solution to War, in any situation, is to attack the system of supply.  Oxycotin is coming across the border and causing many problems.  Do I think that Oxycotin addicts have a right to abuse their bodies and tax citizens to pay for their addictions?  No, I don't.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,667 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #60
    So you'd rather tax citizens to pay for a "war on drugs" that DOESN'T WORK? Like FFL shooter says, we'd all be FAR better off if we simply MINDED OUR OWN BUSINESS. Instead we have a corrupt, two party system that enslaves this nation because neither will MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,743 Senior Member
    The war on Communism took a lot longer than the war on drugs, and we won it.  My Business is anything that costs me taxpayer money.  I'm at a loss to understand this.  What defines your definition of minding one's own business?  Spouse/child abuse?  Assault?  There are victims where"minding one's business" simply isn't adequate today.  It's not altogether a nice world out there.  I realize you've compartened a world where everyone is nice and non-violent, but that's not the way it goes.  Can't accept your world view.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
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