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My bottom line perspective on scopes

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  • PegasusPegasus Senior Member Posts: 2,799 Senior Member
    There's one more item I forgot to address.  With the tactical scope craze of the last 20 years first focal plane ranging reticles on scopes have become all the rage.  With Mil-dots or Mil-rad reticles to name a few with normal second plane reticles the reticle remains the same size throughout the zoom range.  The problem is they have to be set to a certain power setting so that ranging can be accurate.  Scope manufactures normally put a white dot on the power zoom ring.

    With first focal plane reticles the reticle grows and decreases with the power zoom ring so that ranging can be done on any power setting.  Sounds great...well probably not.

    With super zoom scopes 3X18, 4x20, 5x25, 6x30 and so on.  In low light conditions when you zoom down to the lowest power setting, the entire reticle could look like 1/2" big in the scope tube.  Everything is so small you can barely make out the dots or hash marks.  The crosshairs in the center are so tiny and thin even though you may have enough light to see outside you can't make out the crosshairs.  Even with illuminated crosshairs it's really tough.

    This also kills many early morning and evening hunts.

    Jeff is a little late and his information is dated.  Riflescope makers have been dealing with the issue of FFP reticle perspective for several years with, you guessed it, differing perspectives.  When you have a regular FFP scope with a 3X or a 4X zoom, the reticle grows 3 or 4-fold.  So when you go higher zoom ranges, the reticle changes.  What appears to be a solid line in the center of the scope at 1X, 2X and 3X now takes on another form as the higher zoom magnifications.

    Here is an example of an FFP scope with an 8X zoom; the March 5-40X56mm.  Notice the reticles and how they change perspective at higher zoom values.

    https://www.marchoptics.com/shop/brand_march-optics/firstfocalplane/5-40x56mm-scope


    This is another example but of an FFP scope with a 10X zoom; the March 6-60X56mm.  Notice that this scope has 400MOA of elevation adjustment; 50 down, 350 up.  The reticle changes perspective a higher ranges.

    https://www.marchoptics.com/shop/brand_march-optics/firstfocalplane/6-60x56mm-scope


  • Jeff in TXJeff in TX Senior Member Posts: 2,250 Senior Member
    Pegasus,

    Great write up and explainations!  I was sitting in my deer stand not seeing anything so I thought I’d chime in. Didn’t try to get too detailed but stay high level.

    You did a nice job! 
    Distance is not an issue, but the wind can make it interesting!

    John 3: 1-21
  • PegasusPegasus Senior Member Posts: 2,799 Senior Member
    Pegasus,

    Great write up and explainations!  I was sitting in my deer stand not seeing anything so I thought I’d chime in. Didn’t try to get too detailed but stay high level.

    You did a nice job! 
    Thank you. Good luck on your hunt.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    There's one more item I forgot to address.  With the tactical scope craze of the last 20 years first focal plane ranging reticles on scopes have become all the rage.  With Mil-dots or Mil-rad reticles to name a few with normal second plane reticles the reticle remains the same size throughout the zoom range.  The problem is they have to be set to a certain power setting so that ranging can be accurate.  Scope manufactures normally put a white dot on the power zoom ring.

    With first focal plane reticles the reticle grows and decreases with the power zoom ring so that ranging can be done on any power setting.  Sounds great...well probably not.

    With super zoom scopes 3X18, 4x20, 5x25, 6x30 and so on.  In low light conditions when you zoom down to the lowest power setting, the entire reticle could look like 1/2" big in the scope tube.  Everything is so small you can barely make out the dots or hash marks.  The crosshairs in the center are so tiny and thin even though you may have enough light to see outside you can't make out the crosshairs.  Even with illuminated crosshairs it's really tough.

    This also kills many early morning and evening hunts.
    More headaches to deal with. I'm not gonna go there. I don't need tactical anything. All I need is a scope clear enough to put the crosshairs on the deer inside 400 yards or so, 500 if I'm really feeling frisky. But that would only happen if it's a deer of a lifetime. I don't think I ever shot at one over or even at that distance. These new VX-3 i's should handle anything I'll ever try. I came into a little more money last night so I have the bid still in for the one used scope and I out right bought another one this morning. They're all VX-3is. I can't pass a deal up right now because I have this little extra money. It's not much but just enough to tempt me into wastIing it on something else. I think I'll have a VX-3i on most all my deer rifles I use the most. Now again I ask, Am I now a scope snob?
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Uncle FesterUncle Fester Senior Member Posts: 1,479 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #36
    snake284 said:
    There's one more item I forgot to address.  With the tactical scope craze of the last 20 years first focal plane ranging reticles on scopes have become all the rage.  With Mil-dots or Mil-rad reticles to name a few with normal second plane reticles the reticle remains the same size throughout the zoom range.  The problem is they have to be set to a certain power setting so that ranging can be accurate.  Scope manufactures normally put a white dot on the power zoom ring.

    With first focal plane reticles the reticle grows and decreases with the power zoom ring so that ranging can be done on any power setting.  Sounds great...well probably not.

    With super zoom scopes 3X18, 4x20, 5x25, 6x30 and so on.  In low light conditions when you zoom down to the lowest power setting, the entire reticle could look like 1/2" big in the scope tube.  Everything is so small you can barely make out the dots or hash marks.  The crosshairs in the center are so tiny and thin even though you may have enough light to see outside you can't make out the crosshairs.  Even with illuminated crosshairs it's really tough.

    This also kills many early morning and evening hunts.
    More headaches to deal with. I'm not gonna go there. I don't need tactical anything. All I need is a scope clear enough to put the crosshairs on the deer inside 400 yards or so, 500 if I'm really feeling frisky. But that would only happen if it's a deer of a lifetime. I don't think I ever shot at one over or even at that distance. These new VX-3 i's should handle anything I'll ever try. I came into a little more money last night so I have the bid still in for the one used scope and I out right bought another one this morning. They're all VX-3is. I can't pass a deal up right now because I have this little extra money. It's not much but just enough to tempt me into wastIing it on something else. I think I'll have a VX-3i on most all my deer rifles I use the most. Now again I ask, Am I now a scope snob?
    Since you are in South Texas, I assume that you are shooting down Senderos which “might” give you a legitimate shot at a long range shot at a deer.  

    Most of us would be lucky to get a 200 yard shot.  

    Btw - Merry Christmas.  I spent most of my childhood holidays near Corpus.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    snake284 said:
    There's one more item I forgot to address.  With the tactical scope craze of the last 20 years first focal plane ranging reticles on scopes have become all the rage.  With Mil-dots or Mil-rad reticles to name a few with normal second plane reticles the reticle remains the same size throughout the zoom range.  The problem is they have to be set to a certain power setting so that ranging can be accurate.  Scope manufactures normally put a white dot on the power zoom ring.

    With first focal plane reticles the reticle grows and decreases with the power zoom ring so that ranging can be done on any power setting.  Sounds great...well probably not.

    With super zoom scopes 3X18, 4x20, 5x25, 6x30 and so on.  In low light conditions when you zoom down to the lowest power setting, the entire reticle could look like 1/2" big in the scope tube.  Everything is so small you can barely make out the dots or hash marks.  The crosshairs in the center are so tiny and thin even though you may have enough light to see outside you can't make out the crosshairs.  Even with illuminated crosshairs it's really tough.

    This also kills many early morning and evening hunts.
    More headaches to deal with. I'm not gonna go there. I don't need tactical anything. All I need is a scope clear enough to put the crosshairs on the deer inside 400 yards or so, 500 if I'm really feeling frisky. But that would only happen if it's a deer of a lifetime. I don't think I ever shot at one ov, wwer or even at that distance. These new VX-3 i's should handle anything I'll ever try. I came into a little more money last night so I have the bid still in for the one used scope and I out right bought another one this morning. They're all VX-3is. I can't pass a deal up right now because I have this little extra money. It's not much but just enough to tempt me into wastIing it on something else. I think I'll have a VX-3i on most all my deer rifles I use the most. Now again I ask, Am I now a scope snob?
    Since you are in South Texas, I assume that you are shooting down Senderos which “might” give you a legitimate shot at a long range shot at a deer.  

    Most of us would be lucky to gBut a et a 200 yard shot.  
    Yes but I still limit myself. On my old deer lease which I just lost this past year, I had possibilities of 600-700 yard shots, but I limited myself and actually 300 yards was my longest shot and that was at a hog, which I wasn't even overly concerned if I hit or not. But if it had a deer I would have thought about it more. If it hadn't been a good slam dunk shot I may have passed. That sendero wasn't real wide and you had to shoot quick. If a good clear shot handn't presented itself I doubt I would have shot it.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • PegasusPegasus Senior Member Posts: 2,799 Senior Member
    snake284 said:
    There's one more item I forgot to address.  With the tactical scope craze of the last 20 years first focal plane ranging reticles on scopes have become all the rage.  With Mil-dots or Mil-rad reticles to name a few with normal second plane reticles the reticle remains the same size throughout the zoom range.  The problem is they have to be set to a certain power setting so that ranging can be accurate.  Scope manufactures normally put a white dot on the power zoom ring.

    With first focal plane reticles the reticle grows and decreases with the power zoom ring so that ranging can be done on any power setting.  Sounds great...well probably not.

    With super zoom scopes 3X18, 4x20, 5x25, 6x30 and so on.  In low light conditions when you zoom down to the lowest power setting, the entire reticle could look like 1/2" big in the scope tube.  Everything is so small you can barely make out the dots or hash marks.  The crosshairs in the center are so tiny and thin even though you may have enough light to see outside you can't make out the crosshairs.  Even with illuminated crosshairs it's really tough.

    This also kills many early morning and evening hunts.
    More headaches to deal with. I'm not gonna go there. I don't need tactical anything. All I need is a scope clear enough to put the crosshairs on the deer inside 400 yards or so, 500 if I'm really feeling frisky. But that would only happen if it's a deer of a lifetime. I don't think I ever shot at one over or even at that distance. These new VX-3 i's should handle anything I'll ever try. I came into a little more money last night so I have the bid still in for the one used scope and I out right bought another one this morning. They're all VX-3is. I can't pass a deal up right now because I have this little extra money. It's not much but just enough to tempt me into wastIing it on something else. I think I'll have a VX-3i on most all my deer rifles I use the most. Now again I ask, Am I now a scope snob?
    Depends.  Which model are you looking at?
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,859 Senior Member
    A well designed FFP reticle at lower power, turns into for all practical purposes-a crosshair.  You cannot see the MOA or MIL markings....You don't need to, as it is low light at shorter distances.  If you you have a decent lit reticle that again can enhance your ability to see it in low/legal light for a clean kill
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • Jeff in TXJeff in TX Senior Member Posts: 2,250 Senior Member
    This was the point I was trying to make.  At 6X in low light you've lost all ability to do any range finding that the reticle is based on, not to mention it's going to be very difficult to make out the cross hairs on a dark animal such as a hog.  With the FFP although great in theory and with lower power scopes, it's tough to use in low light with the super power scopes.

    BTW, I've used a March scope once, just an incredible scope, as good as my US Optics!


    Distance is not an issue, but the wind can make it interesting!

    John 3: 1-21
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    Pegasus said:
    snake284 said:
    There's one more item I forgot to address.  With the tactical scope craze of the last 20 years first focal plane ranging reticles on scopes have become all the rage.  With Mil-dots or Mil-rad reticles to name a few with normal second plane reticles the reticle remains the same size throughout the zoom range.  The problem is they have to be set to a certain power setting so that ranging can be accurate.  Scope manufactures normally put a white dot on the power zoom ring.

    With first focal plane reticles the reticle grows and decreases with the power zoom ring so that ranging can be done on any power setting.  Sounds great...well probably not.

    With super zoom scopes 3X18, 4x20, 5x25, 6x30 and so on.  In low light conditions when you zoom down to the lowest power setting, the entire reticle could look like 1/2" big in the scope tube.  Everything is so small you can barely make out the dots or hash marks.  The crosshairs in the center are so tiny and thin even though you may have enough light to see outside you can't make out the crosshairs.  Even with illuminated crosshairs it's really tough.

    This also kills many early morning and evening hunts.
    More headaches to deal with. I'm not gonna go there. I don't need tactical anything. All I need is a scope clear enough to put the crosshairs on the deer inside 400 yards or so, 500 if I'm really feeling frisky. But that would only happen if it's a deer of a lifetime. I don't think I ever shot at one over or even at that distance. These new VX-3 i's should handle anything I'll ever try. I came into a little more money last night so I have the bid still in for the one used scope and I out right bought another one this morning. They're all VX-3is. I can't pass a deal up right now because I have this little extra money. It's not much but just enough to tempt me into wastIing it on something else. I think I'll have a VX-3i on most all my deer rifles I use the most. Now again I ask, Am I now a scope snob?
    Depends.  Which model are you looking at?
    VX-3i 3.5-10 x40. Just a plain jane deer rifle scope.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,859 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #42
    I would not want to try to reticle range in low light or on low power.  I would not try to reticle range in bright light for that matter either (high magnification or low magnification).
    If the critter is under 200 yards or so, point and shoot.  Why take the time to reticle range when hunting, use your LRF and kill it quickly.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    snake284 said:
    snake284 said:
    There's one more item I forgot to address.  With the tactical scope craze of the last 20 years first focal plane ranging reticles on scopes have become all the rage.  With Mil-dots or Mil-rad reticles to name a few with normal second plane reticles the reticle remains the same size throughout the zoom range.  The problem is they have to be set to a certain power setting so that ranging can be accurate.  Scope manufactures normally put a white dot on the power zoom ring.

    With first focal plane reticles the reticle grows and decreases with the power zoom ring so that ranging can be done on any power setting.  Sounds great...well probably not.

    With super zoom scopes 3X18, 4x20, 5x25, 6x30 and so on.  In low light conditions when you zoom down to the lowest power setting, the entire reticle could look like 1/2" big in the scope tube.  Everything is so small you can barely make out the dots or hash marks.  The crosshairs in the center are so tiny and thin even though you may have enough light to see outside you can't make out the crosshairs.  Even with illuminated crosshairs it's really tough.

    This also kills many early morning and evening hunts.
    More headaches to deal with. I'm not gonna go there. I don't need tactical anything. All I need is a scope clear enough to put the crosshairs on the deer inside 400 yards or so, 500 if I'm really feeling frisky. But that would only happen if it's a deer of a lifetime. I don't think I ever shot at one ov, wwer or even at that distance. These new VX-3 i's should handle anything I'll ever try. I came into a little more money last night so I have the bid still in for the one used scope and I out right bought another one this morning. They're all VX-3is. I can't pass a deal up right now because I have this little extra money. It's not much but just enough to tempt me into wastIing it on something else. I think I'll have a VX-3i on most all my deer rifles I use the most. Now again I ask, Am I now a scope snob?
    Since you are in South Texas, I assume that you are shooting down Senderos which “might” give you a legitimate shot at a long range shot at a deer.  

    Most of us would be lucky to gBut a et a 200 yard shot.  
    Yes but I still limit myself. On my old deer lease which I just lost this past year, I had possibilities of 600-700 yard shots, but I limited myself and actually 300 yards was my longest shot and that was at a hog, which I wasn't even overly concerned if I hit or not. But if it had a deer I would have thought about it more. If it hadn't been a good slam dunk shot I may have passed. That sendero wasn't real wide and you had to shoot quick. If a good clear shot handn't presented itself I doubt I would have shot it.
    Thank you Fester, and the Merriest of Christmases back at you. You know where I am then, just about 80 miles up 35 from CC. I was just down there two weeks ago. I love to go visit the Lexington there. I also do a lot of Masonic work down there. Being married to a Filipina we go down to the Asian Market at SPID and Weber road. I love Corpus.
    snake284 said:
    There's one more item I forgot to address.  With the tactical scope craze of the last 20 years first focal plane ranging reticles on scopes have become all the rage.  With Mil-dots or Mil-rad reticles to name a few with normal second plane reticles the reticle remains the same size throughout the zoom range.  The problem is they have to be set to a certain power setting so that ranging can be accurate.  Scope manufactures normally put a white dot on the power zoom ring.

    With first focal plane reticles the reticle grows and decreases with the power zoom ring so that ranging can be done on any power setting.  Sounds great...well probably not.

    With super zoom scopes 3X18, 4x20, 5x25, 6x30 and so on.  In low light conditions when you zoom down to the lowest power setting, the entire reticle could look like 1/2" big in the scope tube.  Everything is so small you can barely make out the dots or hash marks.  The crosshairs in the center are so tiny and thin even though you may have enough light to see outside you can't make out the crosshairs.  Even with illuminated crosshairs it's really tough.

    This also kills many early morning and evening hunts.
    More headaches to deal with. I'm not gonna go there. I don't need tactical anything. All I need is a scope clear enough to put the crosshairs on the deer inside 400 yards or so, 500 if I'm really feeling frisky. But that would only happen if it's a deer of a lifetime. I don't think I ever shot at one over or even at that distance. These new VX-3 i's should handle anything I'll ever try. I came into a little more money last night so I have the bid still in for the one used scope and I out right bought another one this morning. They're all VX-3is. I can't pass a deal up right now because I have this little extra money. It's not much but just enough to tempt me into wastIing it on something else. I think I'll have a VX-3i on most all my deer rifles I use the most. Now again I ask, Am I now a scope snob?
    Since you are in South Texas, I assume that you are shooting down Senderos which “might” give you a legitimate shot at a long range shot at a deer.  

    Most of us would be lucky to get a 200 yard shot.  

    Btw - Merry Christmas.  I spent most of my childhood holidays near Corpus.

    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #44
    Well this thread is becoming a huge success for me. I'm learning more today than I have in 70 years about scopes. I still don't need a super fancy scope or a real long range rifle for what I do but its nice to know what people are talking about.
    '
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • PegasusPegasus Senior Member Posts: 2,799 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #45
    I would not want to try to reticle range in low light or on low power.  I would not try to reticle range in bright light for that matter either (high magnification or low magnification).
    If the critter is under 200 yards or so, point and shoot.  Why take the time to reticle range when hunting, use your LRF and kill it quickly.


    I agree with Ernie and I can't help but wonder why anyone would need to range anything inside of 300 yards while hunting something bigger than a rabbit.  If your scope is set up with a proper PBR zero, put the reticle on the target and press the trigger.


    ETA: Maybe there's something about marksmanship for hunters that I do not know about and that it's a requirement that you range the target at close range.  Something akin to dancing naked with chipmunks for barrel break-in.

  • Jeff in TXJeff in TX Senior Member Posts: 2,250 Senior Member
    I really wasn’t talking ranging at close yardage but I think that’s what came out. If you’re using a laser range finder than simple crosshairs or dots will work fine. 

    What i I was driving at is at 6X if I had to rage something at say 800 yards and then make a shot it isn’t going to happen with the power set at 6. 

    Very few if any hunters use a 6x60 scope with a Horus type reticle for deer hunting when most shots at 200 yards or less. Those are special purpose scopes. I was simply trying to say in low light conditions they’re not very functional or useable. 
    Distance is not an issue, but the wind can make it interesting!

    John 3: 1-21
  • PegasusPegasus Senior Member Posts: 2,799 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #47
    snake284 said:
    Well this thread is becoming a huge success for me. I'm learning more today than I have in 70 years about scopes. I still don't need a super fancy scope or a real long range rifle for what I do but its nice to know what people are talking about.
    '
    Well, you can thank Jeff in TX for your success; I'm guessing it was his Christmas gift to you, but let's not assume too much.

    Your initial perspective on rifle scope may have been a bottom line, but I think it might have moved up a little. The rifle scope you are looking at getting is a decent low-to-mid range scope with some nice features and decent glass.  It does not make you a riflescope snob, but it does show that you are evolving.  I look forward to your report when you receive it.

    Your statement about learning more today than you have in 70 years about scopes does not surprise me and in light of various comments on this thread and elsewhere, it's not unique and certainly not a bad mark against you or anyone else.  I happen to be a long time photographer and that passion and some of the knowledge acquired in that pursuit has migrated over to rifle optics.  Shooting a picture or shooting a target, the optical issues are similar.  Long Range F-class competition requires optics that are above the norm, and I've had a great time learning and using these high end scopes.

    The magazines do a very poor job of explaining these issues and they only touch on things like twilight factor and BDC reticles to the great detriment of the readers.  But perhaps it just gets too esoteric for the reader and so they choose to ignore the subject.

    Anyway, after you get your scope, come back with a report and we will be happy to add more information about riflescopes.

    I will be at SHOT show next month, in an optics booth talking about optics.  I might write up a little something about that when I return.

  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    Ranging at less than 300 yards? Depends on what kind of hunter you are. I like to shoot for a specific part of the deer. Seeing as at 300 yards a .270 Win. shooting a 130 grain bullet will drop not quite 7" from POA or that a .30-06 will drop right at 8" with a 150 grain bullet and that the heart is about a 3 inch target if that and the vital area of the neck is probably 4 inches you could very conceivably miss at that range. Now at 100-200 probably not. A .270 with a 130 Grain Bullet zeroed to 200 yards will be about 1.5 " high at 100 yards so the same POA will probably kill for either range. Of course using a SGK or NBT the bullet will no doubt spread its glory over a larger area so probably no worries but you cant bet on that. You need to be within the margin of error.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,859 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #49
     I would only reticle under 500 yards (more like 400-450 yards MAX), and that is IF, my laser rangefinder went down. 
    No one would be reticle ranging at LR in low light, or at least they shouldn’t be.  
    Animal size varies which makes reticle ranging even more risky.  
    I zero at 100 yards.  
    Stand or ground blind hunting I pre range at a number of distances so I don’t have to when it is killing time.  
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,812 Senior Member
    Pegasus said:
    bisley said:
    I only hunt the morning shift, of late. I decided that I'm not going to shoot a deer at dark-thirty and do the knife work in the dark, when I'm too tired to give a damn. So, the extra $1000 or so for the better light transmission is a 'no sale' for me.
    It's statements like that last sentence that lead me to believe some people don't understand riflescopes optics but are happy to use buzzwords, incorrectly.  How do you think light transmission is improved with an extra $1000?



    Pegasus,

    You never disappoint, when you take on the forces of ignorance.

    We mortals often write one sentence too many, when trying to 'run with the gods.' I suppose it stems from a desire to belong, even if we don't deserve to breathe the same air.

    I commend you for having the good sense to stick to the topics that you possess expertise in - I don't have that kind of discipline, being the chatty type, and being too arrogant to properly vet every sentence I write.

    Keep up the good work, and pray for the ignorant.

  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    I would say something but I just can't find the words.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • PegasusPegasus Senior Member Posts: 2,799 Senior Member
    snake284 said:
    Ranging at less than 300 yards? Depends on what kind of hunter you are. I like to shoot for a specific part of the deer. Seeing as at 300 yards a .270 Win. shooting a 130 grain bullet will drop not quite 7" from POA or that a .30-06 will drop right at 8" with a 150 grain bullet and that the heart is about a 3 inch target if that and the vital area of the neck is probably 4 inches you could very conceivably miss at that range. Now at 100-200 probably not. A .270 with a 130 Grain Bullet zeroed to 200 yards will be about 1.5 " high at 100 yards so the same POA will probably kill for either range. Of course using a SGK or NBT the bullet will no doubt spread its glory over a larger area so probably no worries but you cant bet on that. You need to be within the margin of error.

    This is the perfect example of why I don't talk much about hunting, because I am clueless about hunting compared to most people here.


    Snake throws a lot of good info about the need for ranging while hunting.  The few times that I go hunting, I take a .308 rifle with me that I adjusted for PBR with the ammo that I use.  I like to keep it simple for me so when I see a pig inside of 300 yards (and I know what 300 yards looks like, I hold on fur, where I want the bullet to go and press the trigger regardless of the distance, inside 300 yards.


    Snake tells us that he use a .270 with a 130gr bullet when hunting and he want a hit inside of 3-4 inches.  So, I went to JBM and calculated the Point Blank Range with those specs:  Winchester 130 spritzer, 3000 FPS MV, 4 inch diameter and I got this.  If you zero the rifle at 217 yards, your shot from 0 to 253 yards will be within the 4 inch diameter vital zone.  If it's getting past 200 yards, hold up a couple inches and you'll be good to 350 yards easy.

    Since no one seems to ever discuss the PBR here, I suspect that's not used and probably for a good reason of which I am not aware, probably because I don't hunt much.

  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    Pegasus said:
    snake284 said:
    Ranging at less than 300 yards? Depends on what kind of hunter you are. I like to shoot for a specific part of the deer. Seeing as at 300 yards a .270 Win. shooting a 130 grain bullet will drop not quite 7" from POA or that a .30-06 will drop right at 8" with a 150 grain bullet and that the heart is about a 3 inch target if that and the vital area of the neck is probably 4 inches you could very conceivably miss at that range. Now at 100-200 probably not. A .270 with a 130 Grain Bullet zeroed to 200 yards will be about 1.5 " high at 100 yards so the same POA will probably kill for either range. Of course using a SGK or NBT the bullet will no doubt spread its glory over a larger area so probably no worries but you cant bet on that. You need to be within the margin of error.

    This is the perfect example of why I don't talk much about hunting, because I am clueless about hunting compared to most people here.


    Snake throws a lot of good info about the need for ranging while hunting.  The few times that I go hunting, I take a .308 rifle with me that I adjusted for PBR with the ammo that I use.  I like to keep it simple for me so when I see a pig inside of 300 yards (and I know what 300 yards looks like, I hold on fur, where I want the bullet to go and press the trigger regardless of the distance, inside 300 yards.


    Snake tells us that he use a .270 with a 130gr bullet when hunting and he want a hit inside of 3-4 inches.  So, I went to JBM and calculated the Point Blank Range with those specs:  Winchester 130 spritzer, 3000 FPS MV, 4 inch diameter and I got this.  If you zero the rifle at 217 yards, your shot from 0 to 253 yards will be within the 4 inch diameter vital zone.  If it's getting past 200 yards, hold up a couple inches and you'll be good to 350 yards easy.

    Since no one seems to ever discuss the PBR here, I suspect that's not used and probably for a good reason of which I am not aware, probably because I don't hunt much.

    For me shooting for PBR is kind of a hail mary chunck. I don't shoot long distances too often, I really like to try and entice a deer within 100 yards if possible, but if I do take a shot out toward 300 or more yards I'm going to try to put it as close as I can to the spot I want to hit.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • ojrojr Senior Member Posts: 1,189 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #54
    I use PBR on my two purely  Hunting rifles, a BDL in 30 06 with a Leica ER 2.5-10x44 scope  and a 1640 Husqvarna in 9.3x62 with a Leupold VX3 2.5-8x36
    Everything else is ranged and dialed.
    The flight was uneventful, which is what one wants when one is transporting an Elephant.
     Reuters, Dec 2020.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,812 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #55
    I have only paid particular attention to PBR, which I have occasionally referred to as MPBR (Maximum Point Blank Range), with regard to my 10mm Glock G20 pistol. I discovered that I could hit paper plates at 60-70 yards, with the same sight picture I used at 25 yards, which was my normal practice range for the G-20.

    Everything else is geared toward hunting in my particular circumstances, so I sight in precisely, at 100 yards, and apply an inch or so of 'Kentucky windage,' when one of those rare (hunting) occasions arises that require a small elevation or windage adjustment. My goal is a heart shot, and I will usually pass on any shot where I an uncertain of the aiming point to make such a shot. This is not practical for everyone, but with the hunting conditions that I always have, it has been a winner for me.

  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    bisley said:
    I have only paid particular attention to PBR, which I have occasionally referred to as MPBR (Maximum Point Blank Range), with regard to my 10mm Glock G20 pistol. I discovered that I could hit paper plates at 60-70 yards, with the same sight picture I used at 25 yards, which was my normal practice range for the G-20.

    Everything else is geared toward hunting in my particular circumstances, so I sight in precisely, at 100 yards, and apply an inch or so of 'Kentucky windage,' when one of those rare (hunting) occasions arises that require a small elevation or windage adjustment. My goal is a heart shot, and I will usually pass on any shot where I an uncertain of the aiming point to make such a shot. This is not practical for everyone, but with the hunting conditions that I always have, it has been a winner for me.

    Me likewise. I don't usually try long shots but those within my comfort zone I usually try to be precise. I'm pretty color blind and don't know blood from horse piss so I'm a poor tracker so I try to put them down before they have a chance to run.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,812 Senior Member
    After a fairly rambunctious attitude towards hunting in my adolescent and early adult years, I have moderated my approach considerably, in recent years. I never get 'buck fever,' any more, that tends to force impractical shots. A big buck still excites me, but not enough to make me take low percentage shots. I can't stand the idea of wasting a magnificent (to me) buck. Sometimes, I watch a deer through binoculars for so long that I will miss the opportunity to shoot, but when it does actually pay off, it is worth a lot to me.
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