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Kansas Supreme Court rules cops can enter any house w/o a warrant if they smell weed

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  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,105 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    If you can't read the document (which is easy) how can you possibly say the officer was lying through her teeth?  Load the document and scroll down on the right side.   It's easy.  I am of the opinion that some lawyer wanted to make his reputation by challenging this decision, and he lost.  And possibly made bad law.  The officer had smelled raw marijuana 200 times.
    What part of the phrase, 'the site locks up my computer' is giving you a problem?
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
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  • Troy800Troy800 New Member Posts: 25 New Member
    So what are the odds that they had marijuana in the house but didn't smoke in the house. I think the odds are good they did so it is possible he smelt it. I don't agree with the ruling that the mere smell of marijuana is sufficient for a search without a warrant. Smell alone is too subjective and too easy to abuse.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,467 Senior Member
    This is why I think this is a test case.  Too little weed to take it before the Kansas Supreme.  The fact that the officer actually found marijuana tends to lend itself to non-abuse.  The reason the search was warrantless is because of exigent circumstances, which is pointed out in the case as you scroll down.

    I wouldn't trust my sense of smell, and certainly wouldn't like to make a misdemeanor case...or a felony case.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,467 Senior Member
    No, but that is only one exigent circumstance.  I see you haven't read the decision either.  Probably have the same problem as Tennmike.  It explains the exigent circumstance applied here.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,483 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    The reason the search was warrantless is because of exigent circumstances, which is pointed out in the case as you scroll down.


    Exigent circumstances? So were people's lives in danger from smoking a fat doobie? 
    Here's how it plays out...The cop claimed she smelled raw weed. This allows the other cops to perform a "security search" to look for possible people hiding. While they are looking for people, they take inventory of the apartment. A handgun was found under a bed and paraphernalia was found in Hubbard's room. Exigent circumstance in this case was the possibility of evidence destruction. The handgun demonstrates the potential for violence. Exigent circ #2. The cops applied for and were granted a warrant to turn the place, rip open a safe, and convict a guy for less than an ounce of weed. 

    This is how "I smell weed" allows cops to search any house in Kansas. What will they smell when Kansas decriminalizes MJ? 
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,467 Senior Member
    I don't know what your experience was LEOs is (must have been bad) but most won't lie to get a search warrant, or manufacture probable cause for a warrantless search.  That's called "perjury" and is punishable by losing your job and going to jail. Some here think this cop did; I do not and the Kansas Supreme Court agrees with me.  I took an oath not to do so, and I assume the cop did as well.  Suspicion of others breaking their oaths says a lot about what value the average person puts on his own oath.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,105 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    No, but that is only one exigent circumstance.  I see you haven't read the decision either.  Probably have the same problem as Tennmike.  It explains the exigent circumstance applied here.
    I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM. THE SITE LOCKING UP MY COMPUTER KEYBOARD AND THE MOUSE IS THE PROBLEM! WHAT PART OF THAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND! I HAD TO SHUT DOWN THE COMPUTER THREE TIMES AND RESTART BECAUSE THAT SITE IS RUNNING SCRIPT IN THE BACKGROUND THAT LOCKS UP MY COMPUTER.
    Gene L said:
    I don't know what your experience was LEOs is (must have been bad) but most won't lie to get a search warrant, or manufacture probable cause for a warrantless search.  That's called "perjury" and is punishable by losing your job and going to jail. Some here think this cop did; I do not and the Kansas Supreme Court agrees with me.  I took an oath not to do so, and I assume the cop did as well.  Suspicion of others breaking their oaths says a lot about what value the average person puts on his own oath.
    Cops aren't gods or demigods; they're people that took up law enforcement as a vocation. They are JUST AS FALLIBLE AND JUST AS PRONE TO PREJUDICE as the general public from which they come.

    And you're right about that oath thing and what a person who has taken the oath a few times and believes wholeheartedly in that oath thinks of a liar that wipes their butt on that oath. I don't believe that the officer could smell raw marijuana under the conditions given any more than I believe in leprechauns and faeries.
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    ― Douglas Adams
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,467 Senior Member
    While you are entitled to believe what you want, the most important people who DO believe the cop are the Kansas Supreme Court, who, unlike you, actually heard the evidence.  And yet you question both the cop and the Judges because of what you believe with your instinct.  Marijuana has a smell to it, I can smell it in large quantities, never tried to sniff out an ounce.

    Cops are people, indeed.  People who do not want to go to jail for perjury and lose their credibility in court.  Some are bad, a few are crooked, but most of the ones I have known would never lie under oath.  If you automatically believe that the cop lied under oath, it follows that you think it's of small matter.  It's not.

    People believe others act like themselves, which is basically true in the long run.  So if  (you believe a cop (this cop) lied, based on your experience, it falls back on "What would you do" in the same situation.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • FFLshooterFFLshooter Member Posts: 1,057 Senior Member
    I was wondering when the apologetics would begin. I see I’m late to that party. As for crooked cops: you can get on YouTube and see a plethora (by the thousands) of cops lying under oath while captured on camera. I have no use for people that will manufacture a story just to spice up their work day at the expense of an innocent victim. 
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,467 Senior Member
    I don't have much use for cops lying under oath, either.  Can you link to the plethora to which you refer? 

    My former best friend was one of the ones who stole and got caught.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • FFLshooterFFLshooter Member Posts: 1,057 Senior Member
    I don’t know how to link videos, but you can look up “1st amendment audits” on YouTube and you’ll see hundreds of pages of cops fabricating lies to make arrests of law abiding folks. It’s a real problem and cops don’t like cameras because it exposes them doing so. The amount of BS that they make up because they personally don’t like something that is otherwise legal is mind boggling.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 22,984 Senior Member
    I was wondering when the apologetics would begin.
    Yep.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,446 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
     Marijuana has a smell to it, I can smell it in large quantities, never tried to sniff out an ounce.


    So do skunks and the odor is remarkably similar...I'd hate to have my house legally ransacked because Officer Friendly didn't know the difference...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,467 Senior Member
    Don't keep a skunk or marijuana in your house and you'll be free of worry.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,446 Senior Member
    Don't have any control over the skunks...they are frequent visitors in the area.

    Of course since December 6 marijuana is no longer a concern in MI for the most part...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,483 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    I don't know what your experience was LEOs is (must have been bad) but most won't lie to get a search warrant, or manufacture probable cause for a warrantless search.  That's called "perjury" and is punishable by losing your job and going to jail. Some here think this cop did; I do not and the Kansas Supreme Court agrees with me.  I took an oath not to do so, and I assume the cop did as well.  Suspicion of others breaking their oaths says a lot about what value the average person puts on his own oath.
    Gene, I've had the same experiences with cops as most citizens. Some were very professional while others were condescending and intentionally intimidating. Nothing unique about my encounters with LE. 

    At the end of the day, politicians pass constitutionally dubious laws and cops unquestionably enforce them. If you need examples, I'll refer you to California and NYC enforcement of gun laws. If you want an example of cops executing illegal warrantless searches, I refer you to almost every game warden in the US. 

    The case highlighted in this thread only validates what I've said and the KSC gave its stamp of approval. If you take a step back and actually think about this...is it really possible for a human to smell anything stored in this manner? 
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,483 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    Don't keep a skunk or marijuana in your house and you'll be free of worry.
    Funny you'd say this. My shop reeks of skunk scent, because it is trapping season. Not just skunks, but weasels and minks have the same odor. I guess I'm not free of worry after all. 
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,467 Senior Member
    It wouldn't be possible for me, but the parameters are pretty insufficient to render a judgement.  Says it was in a Tupperware container, didn't say if the container was sealed.  Said "safe" but I'm not sure what that means.

    At any rate, I'm not going to second guess the KSC.  I cling to my assertion that this case got so far because some defense lawyer wanted to shine.  Like a lot of stupid motives, he succeeded in making what I consider to be bad law.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,105 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    While you are entitled to believe what you want, the most important people who DO believe the cop are the Kansas Supreme Court, who, unlike you, actually heard the evidence.  And yet you question both the cop and the Judges because of what you believe with your instinct.  Marijuana has a smell to it, I can smell it in large quantities, never tried to sniff out an ounce.

    I'm going by empirical evidence I acquired standing quarterdeck watches over a three year period. I found out MANY times, after the fact, that some sailor had come back aboard with a baggie of marijuana or hashish and was standing within less than a foot of me and I couldn't smell it. I knew who the 'heads' were, for the most part, and asked them when they brought it aboard. They said I was on watch when they came aboard and told me the time they came aboard. I smelled it a few times outside on security watch; when it's burning it has a pretty pungent distinct odor. IIRC you were in Vietnam, so you would have had to have smelled it both unlit and lit, unless you led a very charmed life over there.

    Cops are people, indeed.  People who do not want to go to jail for perjury and lose their credibility in court.  Some are bad, a few are crooked, but most of the ones I have known would never lie under oath.  If you automatically believe that the cop lied under oath, it follows that you think it's of small matter.  It's not.

    You know as well as I do that cops can lie with impunity to someone they have stopped for any reason they claim to be probable cause, or just an ID check. If someone has done something wrong how many times have you heard a cop say, "I can't help you if you don't cooperate"? Since when can a cop help? The prosecutor makes those decisions; a cop may say someone cooperated but that may cut no ice with the prosecutor.

    People believe others act like themselves, which is basically true in the long run.  So if  (you believe a cop (this cop) lied, based on your experience, it falls back on "What would you do" in the same situation.
    No. I don't believe others act like me because THEY ARE NOT ME. So if I were in the situation standing on the porch outside the house with the front door open, I know from previous empirical evidence that I cannot smell pot in a sealed container in a safe 30 feet away. And I would not lie and say I did, either. If pot had been recently smoked inside the house, like within the last 20-30 minutes it 'might be possible' to smell it, or smell it on the person's clothes while standing in front of the open front door. Depends a lot on the air exchange in the house, too. But smelling it in the situation described is a blatant load of bull cookies. Still believe that reality and fantasy swapped places in the situation.

    As to judges, there are a lot of Fed Judges that believe the 2nd Amendment does not apply to citizens and is reserved to the National Guard. That is a sick joke. The Federal Law governing the militia had to be revised, BY CONGRESS, to allow for the formation of the National Guard. Judges give opinions, and opinions are like anal orifices in that everyone has one.
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  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,446 Senior Member
    The smell is pervasive...if you step inside a marijuana dispensary aka "wellness center" even if you don't handle any product..(which is in a sealed container) you will come out reeking of dope....enough so that any police officer you encounter would suspect that you are holding...

    There is a guy who lives across the road and a few houses down that's growing dope (legally) and when the winds right,  the whole area smells like dope central
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,467 Senior Member
    Cops cannot lie with impunity.  Nothing is more attractive to a defense laeyer than a cop who lies.  It makes a case for the defense.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,105 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    The smell is pervasive...if you step inside a marijuana dispensary aka "wellness center" even if you don't handle any product..(which is in a sealed container) you will come out reeking of dope....enough so that any police officer you encounter would suspect that you are holding...

    There is a guy who lives across the road and a few houses down that's growing dope (legally) and when the winds right,  the whole area smells like dope central
    Well, I would think so! Most of what I've seen those dispensaries selling is the buds, that have not been allowed to pollinate; they literally reek of THC and the flower scent. They aren't selling the dried leaves the hippies smoked way back when.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
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  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,483 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    Cops cannot lie with impunity.  Nothing is more attractive to a defense laeyer than a cop who lies.  It makes a case for the defense.
    Cops should not lie with impunity, FIFY.

    But some do and people's very lives hang in the balance. 

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/18/nyregion/testilying-police-perjury-new-york.html
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • FFLshooterFFLshooter Member Posts: 1,057 Senior Member
    CaliFFL said:
    Gene L said:
    Cops cannot lie with impunity.  Nothing is more attractive to a defense laeyer than a cop who lies.  It makes a case for the defense.
    Cops should not lie with impunity, FIFY.

    But some do and people's very lives hang in the balance. 

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/18/nyregion/testilying-police-perjury-new-york.html
    Spot on. Cops are the true sovereign citizens.
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,620 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #56
    With the supposed circumstances in this case, it would have been impossible to smell the "raw" weed. I am sure there was a smell of weed in the dwelling though, being that it had been out and smoked. The scent of GOOD weed is very pungent. I used to grow small amounts indoors when I was younger and that was THE biggest concern when flowering.

    The LEO did not smell the locked up weed and this ruling is asinine and dangerous! All for something that it less harmful than alcohol.

    And to Gene...cops lie (or are ignorant of the law) A LOT more than you believe. There are troves of examples in today's media obsessed world that are quite easy to find.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,467 Senior Member
    So you're saying the Kansas Supreme court is less knowledgeable than you?  What informs your legal ability?
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 22,984 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #58
    Deflection.
    There's no such thing as a bad cop.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • FFLshooterFFLshooter Member Posts: 1,057 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    So you're saying the Kansas Supreme court is less knowledgeable than you?  What informs your legal ability?
    It’s their interpretation vs ours. The only difference is that their interpretation sticks, even when it’s full of more **** than a septic tank.
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,620 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #60
    Gene L said:
    So you're saying the Kansas Supreme court is less knowledgeable than you?  What informs your legal ability?

    Yes, I am, on certain subjects. If they ruled that the earth was flat, would you take their word for it? By your posts I am guessing you would.
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,620 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    If you can't read the document (which is easy) how can you possibly say the officer was lying through her teeth?  Load the document and scroll down on the right side.   It's easy.  I am of the opinion that some lawyer wanted to make his reputation by challenging this decision, and he lost.  And possibly made bad law.  The officer had smelled raw marijuana 200 times.

    I read it. NOBODY but her and a late "follower" smelled ANYTHING! Even on the people that were taken out of the apartment.
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