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Border Security Shut-down

bisleybisley Senior MemberPosts: 10,787 Senior Member
(I moved this post from another thread, because it didn't really fit the thread topic.)

Trump could win this deal, if he would let someone help him that is articulate enough to convince the public on border issues, without having to hype everything with repetitious, bullying rhetoric that is peppered with inaccuracies.

The facts are convincing enough, without the slick sales technique. He just needs to understand the material, so he doesn't just read it with his phony voice inflections that make it look like he is bored, or is being forced to take medicine. He is right on the issue - he just doesn't know how to put it all together, without acting like a bully, or a NYC car salesman.

An oval office speech on all of the networks, delivered with something approaching Ronald Reagan style sincerity, would reach a public that is starved for some adult behavior from the people who are supposed to be serving them.

He could blame Congress for not punishing the employers who hire illegals, because both parties are guilty of not acknowledging that fact, much less debating it. He could do it in such a way that asking for border security money is actually a compromise, because Congress refuses to debate the root cause.

He could highlight the hypocrisy of sending billions of tax dollars to a thousand different places that most citizens do not approve of, and don't leave out the billions sent to Iran, in bales of cash, that is now funding world-wide terrorism

He could explain that the border security problem is now so acute that it is his duty to do whatever is within his power to cause the public to make the Congress serve them.
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Replies

  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,367 Senior Member
    He could sell it as building bridges to help heal past antagonisms and promoting world peace by presenting a proposal for using technical consultation from China. Arguably the greatest wall builders in the world. 

    I noticed the film coverage of possible sections contained no ramparts??? 
  • das68das68 Posts: 662 Senior Member
    russians have done there's


    Ukraine conflict: Russia completes Crimea security fence




  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,564 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #5
    IMO the illegal immigration problem could be ended by doing two things: (1) cut off the the welfare, education and drivers licenses. (2) Stop hiring them and enforce E-verify. Word would spread overnight and people would stop coming here to take all the free stuff. The real problem is congress. Republicans want cheap labor and Democrats want left-wing voters. Both have incentives not to do anything.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,105 Senior Member
    A wall and drones would work, assuming the drones are armed Reaper drones.

    And that's a load of bull cookies that walls don't work. Israel's wall works, Russia's wall works, Mexico's southern wall sorta works, the Vatican wall works, and a lot of others in Eastern Europe work. The Berlin wall worked. Saying walls don't work is a freakin' bald faced lie. Nobody ever penetrated the double fence at the nuke plants I worked at. And I guess prisoners in prison just stay there inside those walls voluntarily?

    Along with what MMD said about E-verify, and meaningful penalties for hiring illegals, and cutting them off the free stuff teat would make that mess dry up quite a bit, but it wouldn't entirely stop it.

    Mine fields would work, too. Might cause some people on the Dem/Lib side of the aisle to get the vapors, though.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • das68das68 Posts: 662 Senior Member
    this oppressed and malnourished piece is all yours big boy






  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,367 Senior Member
    das68 said:
    this oppressed and malnourished piece is all yours big boy





    Forgot to grease the surface?
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,105 Senior Member
    For cheap and effective I'd go with a 231,000 volt electrified fence with 20 foot concrete apron on each side. When they get close enough to deploy the ladder the light show starts. Simple, effective, and no need to man the border. Use drones to identify points of pickup for the crispy critters, and have the fence sectioned to make that possible by opening a couple of breakers to isolate the needed area of the fence. EZPZ

      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,787 Senior Member
    I am irritated by Trump's single-mindedness in getting his campaign promise 'ticket' punched. I am happy that he is trying to keep his campaign promises, because it is so rare, but I am also disturbed by his lack of political skill in selling it to the public in a way that would force the opposition to make reasonable concessions. He has so far failed to explain why he is taking the heat for 'shutting down the government.'

    We all know that a 'government shutdown' is much less dramatic than it sounds, with essential services still being attended to, and federal employees being reimbursed for lost wages. But, having willingly accepted the political heat for what should really be equally distributed to both houses of Congress, he has done a poor job of explaining why such 'drastic' measures need to be taken.

    I don't disagree with the brinkmanship game he is playing, because it is necessary to move anything along in the divided political situation that exists. But, when one side or the other makes the decision to bring things to a decision point in this way, they need to have their ducks in a row, because the political stakes are so high that the loser can be crushed, and important issues can be lost, for years to come.

    As for 'the wall,' itself, that is merely a symbol that should represent any practical solution, and Trump's political antics don't make that clear. A wall, or really just modern security fencing, is a major part of any successful plan to reduce a flood of un-vetted immigrants to an orderly trickle. The Democrats are successfully using that argument to give themselves cover with mainstream America, while feeding the anti-Trump frenzy on their far left. They do not care, as long as whatever happens gets them into power, and keeps them there.

    Alf's assertion that 'most' Texans don't want a wall, though probably a gross exaggeration, has some basis in fact. In reality, Texas ranchers do not want the federal government telling them what they are going to do on their land, but they are not opposed to border security. Most of them would be happy if the government would simply give them the money to do the job, themselves, and walk away. The feds could forcefully do whatever they want, but there are eminent domain issues that could be bogged down in court, and in the media, for years, if landowners are not 'courted' properly by federal negotiators.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 22,984 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #11
    Personally, I'm so damn tired of "skilled politicians", that Trump's "shove it up their posteriors" approach is a very refreshing change and I for one cheer him at every step!
    Maybe not the best attitude to have, but I have it because I really am beyond sick and tired of "politics as usual". The louder the Left screams, the more I like it. They're going to scream anyway, might as well give them something to scream about.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,787 Senior Member
    zorba,

    A skilled politician can be any sort of problem solver that can sell his ideas to the majority of voters, and then deliver what he sold them. Most of the politicians we have now are ad-men who can make voters believe lies for just long enough to get elected. Trump is somewhere in between.

    You might as well accept that any government requires politicians, and start requiring the politicians you vote for to do better at their jobs. It's fine to ignore the noise his opponents make, as long as you recognize noise when your own guy is the one who is making it.

    I support Trump for now, but it's not a 'death pact.' He's just a guy I 'hired' to do a job and love is not required for him to obtain my vote. If he can convince me that he will do better than the person who opposes him, I'll stick with him. But, if his opponent is worthless, it only means that he beat a worthless candidate, until he accomplishes enough to make me trust him to do more. At this point, halfway through one term, he may be running out of gas (most do), because the opposition took away half of the legislative branch, a requirement for passing legislation in a two-party system.

    He needs to find a way to (1) not get thrown out of office,  (2) find a way to 'win' on border security and China trade, and (3) get more decent judges confirmed. Otherwise, he just becomes another empty suit who fooled everybody for a while. It's a hard job and he has handled it well enough, so far, but he has high character negatives that he has to cancel out with accomplishments, and he has an opposition that is determined not to let him.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    What some of you find "refreshing", I find akin to bringing a rubber knife to a gun fight. Between this, the Iraq trip, and how Mattis was handled, I am not jokingly, but seriously questioning his mental capacity to hold office.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,787 Senior Member
    bisley said:
    ...but I am also disturbed by his lack of political skill in selling it to the public in a way that would force the opposition to make reasonable concessions. He has so far failed to explain why he is taking the heat for 'shutting down the government.'

    Kidding, right? Lack of political skill? Christ sakes alive, (Lol!) he's pissing off politicians faster than A.J. Foyt at the 500. I call that political skill myself. I also equate those whining about the government shutdown as the same ilk who whine when their welfare checks are late. 
    I call that entertainment, not political skill. It's fun, but the reality is that those politicians he shamed are now cutting his throat.

    I like it when he calls them what they are, but people who live in glass houses probably shouldn't throw stones. He's not hosting a reality show, now. He is sacrificing political capital for cheap thrills, and even though I enjoy most of it, it doesn't help him get what he wants.Too many Republicans have pals on the other side of the aisle. He nearly lost his Supreme Court appointment because Jeff Flake was a bosum buddy with a Democrat, and Trump pretty much ruined Flake's chances for re-election by supporting his Republican opponent in the primary...who lost the general election. All he had to do was shut up, and he couldn't.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 22,984 Senior Member
    Ignore "political capital" and RAM IT DOWN THEIR THROATS says I. "Political capital" is "playing the game". I'm tired of "the game", I don't like games, I don't play games, and don't hold with those who do.
    Maybe I'm unrealistic, but I'm sick of the crap, and "the game" is the cause of it. I'm with Billy_Budd - if trump's pissing off everybody on both sides, he's doing something right because I have very little use for either "side" - I'm sick and tired of the lot of them.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,105 Senior Member
    Trump and his advisers need to get together and put together a cogent argument on why the border fence/wall/mine field/free fire zone needs to be built. Start by explaining the costs of illegal immigration on the government. Tell the truth about the disease influx(and there is one whether you admit it, or not), and the drug problem. Put together a couple or three hours of material and do a few 'fireside chats' like other President's have done. Can the hype, the name calling, and the other not helpful stuff and lay down the FACTS of the situation on the broken border security, the immigration system, and give the reasons for, and the HOW TO to fix the problems. Put the whole mess squarely on the do nothing Congress to quit the partisan BS and FIX THE PROBLEMS!
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 22,984 Senior Member
    Mike, that does make some sense. Remember, I came from Commiefornia, and have seen 1st hand what illegal immigration has done - others may not have that knowledge.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 10,348 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #18
    bisley said:
    ...but I am also disturbed by his lack of political skill in selling it to the public in a way that would force the opposition to make reasonable concessions. He has so far failed to explain why he is taking the heat for 'shutting down the government.'

    Kidding, right? Lack of political skill? Christ sakes alive, (Lol!) he's pissing off politicians faster than A.J. Foyt at the 500. I call that political skill myself. I also equate those whining about the government shutdown as the same ilk who whine when their welfare checks are late. 
    Billy some of those people whining have mortgage, car and insurance payments that must be made or their credit tanks. They also have children to feed and take care of. Our home income is cut in half because of this. Our kids are grown and we are/will be OK, but there are those only now getting established with kids that are effected.
    Another example i know first hand. Recently separated Vet. Gave up her apartment to attend a 7 month Federal Agent academy.  Was sent home and told pay and training are suspended until the furlough is over, you must leave the property.  Where does she go?  No pay, no place to live, how many days can you afford in a hotel?
    Everyone effected is not on welfare, those checks will go out.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 22,984 Senior Member
    I hope Trump continues to stay the course and doesn't give in one single inch to these dirty establishment politicians as they have ZERO intention or interest in restoring or reinforcing our Constitutional rights.      
    I do too - I'm sick of it, and I'm sick of those who complain that protocol isn't being followed or the niceties aren't being observed. TOO BAD.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,787 Senior Member
    bisley said:
    bisley said:
    ...but I am also disturbed by his lack of political skill in selling it to the public in a way that would force the opposition to make reasonable concessions. He has so far failed to explain why he is taking the heat for 'shutting down the government.'

    Kidding, right? Lack of political skill? Christ sakes alive, (Lol!) he's pissing off politicians faster than A.J. Foyt at the 500. I call that political skill myself. I also equate those whining about the government shutdown as the same ilk who whine when their welfare checks are late. 
    I call that entertainment, not political skill. It's fun, but the reality is that those politicians he shamed are now cutting his throat.

    I like it when he calls them what they are, but people who live in glass houses probably shouldn't throw stones. He's not hosting a reality show, now. He is sacrificing political capital for cheap thrills, and even though I enjoy most of it, it doesn't help him get what he wants.Too many Republicans have pals on the other side of the aisle. He nearly lost his Supreme Court appointment because Jeff Flake was a bosum buddy with a Democrat, and Trump pretty much ruined Flake's chances for re-election by supporting his Republican opponent in the primary...who lost the general election. All he had to do was shut up, and he couldn't.
    Bisley. They were set on cutting his throat well before he was ever elected. As far as the Republicans having ''pals on the other side of the aisle,'' that is one of the key issues that put him in the White House in the first place! The average Trump voter had had enough of the RINO Republican back-scratching with the Democrats when came to key conservative issues such as gun control and securing our borders. In closing, I hope Trump continues to stay the course and doesn't give in one single inch to these dirty establishment politicians as they have ZERO intention or interest in restoring or reinforcing our Constitutional rights.      
    I understand that, and I like it that he plays hardball right back at them. But he takes one step forward and two steps back. He gets the rare bit of good press, then he steps all over the story with something that takes the good thing out of the headlines. He can't shut up long enough to let anything sink in, before he pops off about something that's not even important, and gives a hostile media something else to rag on him about.

    Yes, there are a lot folks hunting his scalp, and yes, he has a right to lash out at them, but sometimes he should just refute the charges once and then move on. The more he grouses about it, the less accurate his comments get, and the more credibility he gives to his accusers. He is the president, and he doesn't have to repeat himself - he's got people who can handle that better than he can, or least he should have. Good people have left in frustration, because while they are out there fighting his battles, he is off somewhere contradicting them.

    He needs to address the border conflict with comprehensive explanations - not just keep repeating his campaign speeches. Lots of us understand this issue, but not everybody does, and they need to be convinced, not hear slogans. He could be a great president if he could stop campaigning long enough to embrace the issues, in detail.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #21
    Like him or not, I am an American and want what is best for our country. If he could convince me that building a border wall would solve many of our immigration problems, I could get behind the concept. What I have been getting is nut job Twitter rants.

    From what I can tell, Mrs. Diver and the friend I mentioned in the Clubhouse thread are "Democrats" so they don't need pay checks. If he doesn't get his way, he has threatened to pull out of NAFTA (which would blow our economy to hell) and close down the border. How is he going to close down the border? We can't even fill all the open positions at the border patrol right now as it is, then he signed an executive order yesterday cancelling all their raises next year. Right now, they are working for IOU's... and there is no money in the budget to fix their damn rifles.

    So what? He is going to send our border patrol out with broken ass rifles, working for IOU's, short handed, and close the border? Really? All this because he wants taxpayers to foot the bill for a silly wall that Mexico is supposedly paying for that border security experts have concluded is only effective in certain areas?

    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 22,984 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    I hope Trump continues to stay the course and doesn't give in one single inch to these dirty establishment politicians as they have ZERO intention or interest in restoring or reinforcing our Constitutional rights.      
    I do too - I'm sick of it, and I'm sick of those who complain that protocol isn't being followed or the niceties aren't being observed. TOO BAD.
    Except those things are the same things that protect you when the other party has power. What's good for the goose and all that. Checks and balances are a very good thing the vast majority of the time.
    I'm not talking about that, and I think you know it. I'm talking about cutting through the shullbit, and ignoring the "political capital" and other crap that has zero to do with the law.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,105 Senior Member
    Just so all y'all know, Nancy Pelosi is in Hawaii on vacation. Probably figured how to charge it to the government. And you know that ol' alcoholic heifer is choking down the high priced booze as fast as they can fill her slop trough.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #24
    That only shows that Pelosi isn't a fool. Only a fool would (after 2 years with a "conservative" court, congress, and senate) put his foot down just before his party lost congress. She will be back, well rested and chipper on January 3rd as the House Speaker. She knows she has leverage. Mr. "Art of the Deal"  put himself in a crappy position.

    Many here find that refreshing. It leaves me confused and worried.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,105 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #25
    Trump still has the power of the veto. Any bill that hits his desk can be vetoed. Pelosi being Speaker of the House may be a big deal to her and the Democrats, but that doesn't mean that legislation passed will be signed into law by the President. Their pet projects may be constantly thrown back in their faces, and a 2/3 majority in the House AND Senate may be a bridge too far as to overriding the veto. They don't hold enough seats to make that happen.

      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,919 Senior Member
    Here's the problem. While boarder security and immigration reform is really important, the wall is freakin dumb. Way more can be done with less money and less trampling on property rights, cutting off ranchers from water sources they've used for generations, and destroying the natural beauty of Texas's most popular national park. Drones, electronic surveillance, patrols are all more effective than a wall that can be defeated with a ladder or a shovel. No matter how big or expensive the wall is, you can always build a bigger ladder or dig a deeper tunnel. 

    The majority of Texans don't want the wall and the ones closest to the border want it even less.

    https://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/2018/10/14/along-rio-grande-backlash-trumps-push-speed-border-wall-construction

    If Trump actually cared about securing the border and limiting immigration there's lots of room for bipartisan compromise. What Trump wants is a giant eyesore of a monument to Trump. 

    If Trump or any Republicans really wanted to stem the tide of illegal immigration the #1 way to do that would be to punish employers as you suggested. That would also be something you could probably get Democrats onboard with too. The problem is they all take way too many donations from industries that benefit directly (by hiring) or indirectly (by depressed wages for low skilled workers) from a steady flow of illegal workers that there's no chance they would back something that was actually effective.  

    Instead they look for big showy policies that look like they do some good to those that just want a simple solution and rarely bother to look beyond the surface/talking points of an issue. That way they can claim they are "tough on border security" while ensuring that a healthy flow of underclass of workers with no rights and no protections continue to make their way into the country to drive down wages and provide cheap labor for their donors. And if you can make it a giant infrastructure project like a wall you get the bonus of being able to issue lucrative contracts to existing or future donors! 

    As far as I am personally concerned you are preaching to the choir. Eliminating available jobs for illegals as a solution is so obvious that a 5th grader could figure it out!!! When I was performing my Military Intelligence Aerial Surveillance training the Southern border "wall" in Arizona was a 10 foot tall chain link fence. Illegal immigration was not considered a problem in 1978. From 1980 to 1983 I performed many aerial surveillance missions on both Northern and Southern borders. The mission was counterdrug not immigration. We were fighting Reagan's war on drugs. The technology was current and effective at  detecting and locating the targets accomplishing the mission quite well. Todays technology is far more advanced but still worthless lacking vehicles and boots on the ground for the apprehension phase.        
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    Republicans were more than ready to pass a spending bill without the wall and had signals from the White House saying that was ok until our president watched TV. Then he did a 180 (from his previous 180). That isn't strategy-- that is madness. 

    There is bipartisanship there to override a veto. They will do that unless Trump starts acting like a leader and shows some statesmanship. Right now, I am questioning his mental capacity to do his job. Sadly, I am wondering if Jared and Ivanka were hired to change his diapers and wipe his ass. I was never a fan of Obama, but never thought he was incompetent-- I had serious philosophical differences with him. 
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #28
    For the record-- Trump has made zero vetos.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    I'm not talking about that, and I think you know it. I'm talking about cutting through the shullbit, and ignoring the "political capital" and other crap that has zero to do with the law.
    Jim Mattis is highly respected among our military-- the men and women that have been there and done that. Jim Mattis resigned because Trump (over a phone call with the Turkish leader) decided to pull out of Syria.

    Jim Mattis personally hands Trump his letter of resignation (in 600 words, he outlines his reasons and why he cannot continue serving the Trump administration). Minutes later, Trump Tweets that Mattis is an honorable man and served with distinction. Several days later (while watching TV), Trump finally realizes what Mattis said in that 600 words and fires Mattis. Then he says that he gave him a "second chance" after Obama fired him. Hiring a secretary of defense is not charity work-- either you hire someone competent or you do not. What happened is that Trump never read the resignation letter from Mattis-- 600 words! He couldn't manage even that. Once it got around to FOX News, he finally realized what an idiot he was and reacted by firing Mattis and tarnishing his reputation.

    I get that you see him as someone that shakes stuff up and pisses people off. I understand. The problem is that he isn't doing it from a position of wisdom and has bigger balls than the rest of us. He is doing it from a position of pure ignorance. Someone that ignorant is seriously dangerous.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #30
    To me, it is like watching my uncle Don poop himself, while you guys call him "unfiltered" and "unrestrained". Anyone that happens to say that he pooped himself is called unamerican, Democrat, and libtard.

    It is about time he actually becomes a man and steps up being a leader.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 22,984 Senior Member

    I get that you see him as someone that shakes stuff up and pisses people off. I understand. The problem is that he isn't doing it from a position of wisdom and has bigger balls than the rest of us. He is doing it from a position of pure ignorance. Someone that ignorant is seriously dangerous.
    Jerm - you could be right. I honestly don't know - I just have a visceral reaction to "politics as usual" and figure nobody could possibly do better because "experience politicians" sure aren't - they got us in this mess to start with. *shrug*

    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
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