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Border Security Shut-down

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  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,368 Senior Member
    It looks to me like a significant portion of the electorate, including a significant portion of board members here are enthusiastic supporters of poking a finger in the eye of establishment neocons. This seems to be imperative beyond the execution of effective and productive policy.

    If my perception is correct, and Im not 100% certain that it is??? Its still, in the end ineffective and unproductive policy. At least for us and our contemporaries.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    What's next Jermanator? You going to give 'Student of the Month Awards' to Maxine Waters? 
    You mean, "Chairwoman of House Financial Services Committee" Maxine Waters? How is this Making America Great? Running the Republican brand into the dirt and putting liberals in power? Great job!

    You should be proud.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 22,984 Senior Member
    In other words, "keep playing the game" that got us here in the 1st place.
    Uh-huh.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    A smart businessman once wrote a book about this subject. It sure as heck wasn't Donald Trump.


    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 22,984 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    In other words, "keep playing the game" that got us here in the 1st place.
    Uh-huh.
    You mean following the Constitution, yes. Trump is the head of the executive branch (one of 3 EQUAL branches). According to the constitution his job is to execute the laws and budgets congress passes and lead the military. If you want a president that has more power than that move elsewhere. I hear Turkey and Russia are nice. 
    You keep conflating political BS with law. Political BS is NOT in the Constitution. Trump's following the law, he's not following the BS. I think that's a good thing, Jerm does not, and it seems that you can't tell the difference? *shrug*
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,787 Senior Member
    Jerm,

    Here is my opinion of where our disagreements lie (bring a lunch):

    A bloated political bureaucracy, created by political machines exploiting a 'sleepy' electorate, has landed us in a place where all of the political choices available at this point in time look like bad ones. Too many voters are either too busy or too lazy to do the intellectual exercises needed to determine the reality of the situation they are in. So, they do what they have always done - they select people to represent them that promise to make all the bad things go away. Most of these people that the sleepy voters have to choose from are no smarter than the people who choose them, and many of the ones who are smart, are not honest, or they subscribe to a different definition of honesty than the people who elect them. That has never been any more apparent than it is right now.

    The electorate is mostly not stupid and not dishonest. But when they try to band together to serve a common goal, they sometimes lack the insight needed to separate the charlatans from the pure in heart, to be their leaders. Too many lack the patience to make sound judgements, with a focus on what they wish to be achieved, and they get distracted by their personal likes and dislikes. They are eager to select someone whom they believe will serve their personal interests, without understanding that they may have to make sacrifices to their own interests, in order to keep the most basic functions of government intact for the whole group. Sometimes, they misjudge whether a crisis actually exists, or it is a manufactured crisis, for some sneaky political purpose Only time can sort that out, so the wisest course is to keep an eye on who benefits, and who does not.

    This is not a new development - it has always been this way, since man first decided to band together for the common safety of all. Those who chose a leader dispassionately, rather than just picking someone who would agree with them, almost certainly fared better than the others. It is probably why American Indians had war chiefs and peace chiefs, and councils charged with choosing which one was needed for 'the people' to survive each crisis. The more cynical among us will say, "look how that worked out for them," but that ignores the fact that they flourished for hundreds, if not thousands of years. It has always been necessary to use ambitious men to achieve an end, then replace them when the circumstance arrives that doesn't suit their abilities.

    It is also not a new development that self-styled pragmatists often decide that the leaders chosen over their protests lack the necessary level of sanity. Sometimes they are even right, but history is speckled with fanatical leaders that actually performed vital functions for their country, before being replaced by a more moderate character. George Patton and Douglas MacArthur come to mind. They were risk-takers that performed at their highest level, when the stakes were the highest, and many questioned their sanity.



    Our country has evolved into a de facto 'two-party system' of electing leaders, and for all practical purposes, we cannot devise a safe way to change that, at least in the near future. We believe that great pain will be inflicted on 'the people' by the party that does not split into 'warring' factions. Both parties are continually fighting to survive, and both believe that all is lost, if they don't keep their coalitions intact and pissed off, at somebody else. The result is that they are bound to the courses that they have embarked upon - 'damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.' We do not yet know the limits to which each party will go, to maintain political power.

    I have cast my lot with somebody whose demeanor and personal character traits are diametrically opposed to mine, and I am fearful of the possibility that he could screw up a lot of things. But, he is still trying to succeed at things I want done, while the opposition is doing nothing but hyper-ventilating. If he ever stops 'tilting at windmills,' he might find a practical solution, and his opposition might do the right thing, out of self preservation.

  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #38
    bisley said:

    I have cast my lot with somebody whose demeanor and personal character traits are diametrically opposed to mine, and I am fearful of the possibility that he could screw up a lot of things. But, he is still trying to succeed at things I want done, while the opposition is doing nothing but hyper-ventilating. If he ever stops 'tilting at windmills,' he might find a practical solution, and his opposition might do the right thing, out of self preservation.

    I agree with everything you have to say with the exception of this last paragraph. I think his character flaws are so fatal it actually prevents him from getting the things done that he says he wants to do. His biggest enemy isn't the Democrats, it is himself. It is pathetic and embarrassing. While the opposition may be disturbed by that big urine stain on the front of his pants, he is hurting himself a whole lot more than he is hurting them with these antics along with the causes he is supposed to champion.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 10,348 Senior Member
    I have always said that someone needs to take Mr Trumps phone away and break it. Then close his twitter account.  He is not a politician, never was, always has been in charge of a huge and wealthy conglomerate.  He said something  it happened. If he wanted sunshine and it was a gloomy day, someone turned on a sunlamp or put him on a plane where it was sunny.
    He was/is ill prepared for political life beyond schoozing with politicians to get what he or his corporation wanted/needed. Add the ego and you have what we have like it or not. If not dont vote for him in 2020.
    The liboral left is still pissed he won and very busy fighting against everything he does. They should be finding someone to beat him in the next election 
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 22,984 Senior Member
    I will agree that Trump using TWITter annoys me. Not because of what he says, he usually hits the nail on the head, but because POTUS of all people shouldn't "so dignify the platform". Nobody older than about 12 should "so dignify the platform".
    OTOH, he *is* managing to side-step "the media" by doing so, so it isn't all bad!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,105 Senior Member
    Both sides of the aisle have been infested with crooks and thieves since before  lincoln made the Constitution a death pact by crushing state's rights once and for all. It only accelerated after his dictatorial administration. The fact that Feinstein, Pelosi, Waters, Schumer, and a host of others continue to leave snail snot slime in the Congress is because they are smarter than their congenital idiot constituents that just want more free stuff and coddling from cradle to grave.

    Trump isn't the problem. He's the result of the problem. He's up to his eyeballs in a cesspool filled with gas filled fluffy turds that don't give a single damn about the U.S., the Constitution, their idiot constituents, or the rule of law. They seek only power and the riches they can get by graft and conniving with insider trading information, and lobbyist under-the-table money. They are getting theirs, and don't give a single damn about anyone else. They are so corrupt that they wouldn't make even low grade compost.

    The soap box has failed.
    The ballot box has been tainted by the Democrats importing illegal voters, and vote tampering on an unheard of scale, so the ballot box is rapidly becoming a failure that no longer works. Add in voters that want free stuff, more socialism, and not having to do anything on their part to make a living, and the ballot box is nearing uselessness.
    That leaves the last choice, the bullet box. If it gets bad enough that the bullet box becomes the authority of last resort, then those living then will certainly be living in interesting times.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 22,984 Senior Member
    tennmike said:
    Trump isn't the problem. He's the result of the problem. He's up to his eyeballs in a cesspool filled with gas filled fluffy turds that don't give a single damn about the U.S., the Constitution, their idiot constituents, or the rule of law. They seek only power and the riches they can get by graft and conniving with insider trading information, and lobbyist under-the-table money. They are getting theirs, and don't give a single damn about anyone else. They are so corrupt that they wouldn't make even low grade compost.

    Oh, but Trump doesn't observe the niceties or play the game. How horrid.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #43
    Millions of people every day form thoughts and convey them properly on that medium. Like guns, Twitter isn't the problem. The person doing the tweeting is the problem.

    You guys have done well describing the disease. Just remember that sometimes, we use the wrong cure. Other times, the cure itself is worse than the disease.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 22,984 Senior Member
    TWITter... It does show the relative intelligence of most of its users. Like I say, he shouldn't so dignify the "platform" - and neither should anybody else. With that said, at least it isn't face***k!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,368 Senior Member
    Assuming great potential for instantaneous interpersonal communication the medium has a powerful impact.

    The warnings of people like Edward Murrow about television may be applicable there as well.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    TWITter... It does show the relative intelligence of most of its users.
    Exactly. So what do you think it says about him? Pants crapper.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,351 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #47
    Up to now I've been a staunch Trump supporter, but the time has come for him to learn some political skill and quit acting like a third grade playground bully. The midterms should have awakened him. If this continues the dems will have it all in 2020, House, Senate, and Exec. And we will only have a 5-4 majority in the SCOTUS. That means 8 more years of Democrats and with the age of some of the Justices the court would probably swing back to a Liberal Majority. Then we're really screwed. I fear Donald's Ego is now in charge.

    I'm thinking if he doesn't change his attitude it's time to court another candidate for 2020. I'm gonna go WAY WAY WAY out on a limb and say I'm ready for Lindsey Graham. He's been in Trumps corner for most of the way except on occasions when he just couldn't swallow it and he had to go his own way. I think Lindsay is hard headed enough to do what's needed but unlike Donald he has the political skills to get it done.

    I'm really afraid Trumps fire is burning out.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    snake284 said:
    I fear Donald's Ego is now in charge.

      I fear Donald's id is in charge.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 22,984 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    TWITter... It does show the relative intelligence of most of its users.
    Exactly. So what do you think it says about him? Pants crapper.
    Like I said, I'm annoyed that he'd lower himself to such a platform. OTOH, I like a lot of what he says there.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,105 Senior Member
    Trump should use the 'bully pulpit' rather than a limited platform like Twitter. Fireside chats work. Having some serious news conferences where he lays out what he wants, and why, with plenty of evidence and statistics, and money hemorrhaging from the treasury from the problems like illegal immigration, trade deficits, and the like would put that in front of the American people that aren't getting anything but highly filtered propaganda from the news media. 
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,787 Senior Member
    Sometimes, you just have to 'dance with who brung ya.'

    I was a long time coming around to the idea of a Donald Trump presidency. In the end, I made up my mind that it was better to have a radical that pretended to be a conservative than a radical who had proved that she was un-redeemable as a human being. It is an act of desperation to put someone in charge of what you hold dearest that makes your skin crawl. But once you have done it, you are better served by sticking with it until relief comes from another front.

    The forces that were antithetical to me, then, have not yet been neutralized, and there is nobody riding to the rescue on a winged white stallion to oppose them. Until a real solution surfaces that will make everything 'all nice' again, I will stick to the guy who can drive them nuts, by sheer force of personality. It's not a personality that I would wish to be inflicted on anyone I love, but tenacity is a virtue of sorts, when it is used to to stem the tide that can wash away 300 years of progress. I prefer real heroes with no warts, but there aren't any, so it's time to improvise.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,368 Senior Member
    Rationalize and justify.
  • AntonioAntonio Senior Member Posts: 2,595 Senior Member
    Some "outsider" perspective? Will try to keep it concise:

    - Seems to me that the current discussion has swinged from illegal immigration and how to stop/reduce it to criticizing Trump and the political stablishment.

    - At least since I can recall, this might be the 1st. time a POTUS is trying to implement solutions that although controversial to say the least, are in the "stop!" path instead of the "well, let see if..." road.

    - Neither political side REALLY benefits from solving the problem; Reps might have chosen the "nay" side to please their voters, but have actually done little to solve the main issues when they had the chance. In the long term I think Dems benefit the most by generating demographics that they hope will become their future voting bases by extending social benefits and polarizing them against their rivals.... classic commie tactic.

    - The wall, ridiculous as it sounds, might AT LEAST become a deterrent for the "worst" people flow, that is from those who are plain unwateds like gang members and criminals of all sorts, to minors, elderly, chronically sick and others that will hardly have the chance of becoming somewhat productive to the economy, butbut proba a burden to the already clogged US social services. Such kind of basic "filter" seems necessary to at least slow the flow of people that will have huge assimilation problems, with the issues derived from the "civilization clash".

    - To LATAM people the US is the lifeboat to clinge at, specially considering the constant political and mainly economical turmoil many countries in the region suffer, like Venezuela, Argentina and Bolivia. Unfortunately for you, it's "easier", "closer" and "better" for the "less ideal" ones to get into the US than go for regional migration (Like MANY Venezuelans have done to Colombia,  Brazil, Chile and here) or to Europe, mainly Spain, Italy or Germany.


  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,787 Senior Member
    Rationalize and justify.
    Good political debates between starkly different positions usually do end with rationalization and justification, because neither position has managed to crush his 'opponent.' It is a summing up of one's position, a 'parting shot,' of sorts, when nobody has actually convinced anyone. Actual agreement is only reached when both sides are equally unhappy with the way it turned out, and want to wash their hands and move on to something more productive.

    The only real difference in the discussions we have here and the debates that occur within government, are the amount of honesty on display, and the stakes that are involved. Still, having the discussion sometimes draws onlookers into the process, who may evaluate the different viewpoints and reach one of their own. This is the way 'higher education' works, I think...but since I don't have any of that, I'm only guessing.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 22,984 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    TWITter... It does show the relative intelligence of most of its users. Like I say, he shouldn't so dignify the "platform" - and neither should anybody else. With that said, at least it isn't face***k!
    Zorba, show us on the doll where Facebook hurt you?
    My head. It hurts my brain that such an abomination even exists, much less that people are dumb enough to partake of it.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,564 Senior Member
    What remotely gives you the impression that he's capable of such a thing? He's only good at Twitter sound bites and simplistic propaganda speeches in front of friendly crowds who will swallow whatever he spits at them. It would be great if he would do what you suggest, I just seriously doubt it's in his nature to be able to do it.
    I'll take Trumps half-truths to Obama's constant lies and propaganda any time. They all lie, but at least Trump has done SOME good things.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 22,984 Senior Member
    I still say Trump is the best thing that's happened to the GOP in my lifetime at least. I wasn't, and am still not thrilled with Pence - I have a feeling that there's a Christianist agenda being forwarded that we're not hearing a lot about. With that said, thanx to our broken 2 party system, you have to make a choice - so I'll go with Trump et al for the time being.
    As Treebeard said "I am on nobody's side, because nobody is on my side, little orc.”. I think a LOT of people, probably even a majority, can say the same thing.

    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,787 Senior Member
    Antonio said:
    Some "outsider" perspective? Will try to keep it concise:

    - Seems to me that the current discussion has swinged from illegal immigration and how to stop/reduce it to criticizing Trump and the political stablishment.

    - At least since I can recall, this might be the 1st. time a POTUS is trying to implement solutions that although controversial to say the least, are in the "stop!" path instead of the "well, let see if..." road.

    - Neither political side REALLY benefits from solving the problem; Reps might have chosen the "nay" side to please their voters, but have actually done little to solve the main issues when they had the chance. In the long term I think Dems benefit the most by generating demographics that they hope will become their future voting bases by extending social benefits and polarizing them against their rivals.... classic commie tactic.

    - The wall, ridiculous as it sounds, might AT LEAST become a deterrent for the "worst" people flow, that is from those who are plain unwateds like gang members and criminals of all sorts, to minors, elderly, chronically sick and others that will hardly have the chance of becoming somewhat productive to the economy, butbut proba a burden to the already clogged US social services. Such kind of basic "filter" seems necessary to at least slow the flow of people that will have huge assimilation problems, with the issues derived from the "civilization clash".

    - To LATAM people the US is the lifeboat to clinge at, specially considering the constant political and mainly economical turmoil many countries in the region suffer, like Venezuela, Argentina and Bolivia. Unfortunately for you, it's "easier", "closer" and "better" for the "less ideal" ones to get into the US than go for regional migration (Like MANY Venezuelans have done to Colombia,  Brazil, Chile and here) or to Europe, mainly Spain, Italy or Germany.


    Your 'outside perspective' is well received by most of us.

    You have an excellent grasp of the situation and don't jump to the conclusion that those of us who want a practical border security plan are racists. We can't even get that much insight from our own citizens, most of the time.

    Please jump in whenever you feel like it.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,105 Senior Member
    Antonio always posts stuff that makes you think. And he has the perspective of being there and seeing what goes on on a daily basis in South America. A fresh perspective is always welcome.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,368 Senior Member
    bisley said:
    Rationalize and justify.
    Good political debates between starkly different positions usually do end with rationalization and justification, because neither position has managed to crush his 'opponent.' It is a summing up of one's position, a 'parting shot,' of sorts, when nobody has actually convinced anyone. Actual agreement is only reached when both sides are equally unhappy with the way it turned out, and want to wash their hands and move on to something more productive.

    The only real difference in the discussions we have here and the debates that occur within government, are the amount of honesty on display, and the stakes that are involved. Still, having the discussion sometimes draws onlookers into the process, who may evaluate the different viewpoints and reach one of their own. This is the way 'higher education' works, I think...but since I don't have any of that, I'm only guessing.
    We don't have to rationalize and justify what we're doing. That's a good place to stand.

    We'll likely get improved border security, although there's bound to be some disagreement on it's importance.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 22,984 Senior Member
    tennmike said:
    Antonio always posts stuff that makes you think. And he has the perspective of being there and seeing what goes on on a daily basis in South America. A fresh perspective is always welcome.
    Yes he does - its really nice to read something a bit more objective from the outside.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
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