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Better idea than electric cars. Why don't we recycle energy?

TugarTugar Senior MemberPosts: 2,222 Senior Member
I'm no chemist, but so far, this makes sense to me. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=227&v=Mb_8DJF6Hp0
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
Winston Churchill
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Replies

  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 3,966 Senior Member
    We're not done digging up all the profits from the ground yet.

    Once that's done we'll "discover" these new sources (plural).
     ;) 
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    Renewable energy sources will win out against oil, eventually. But the innovators in renewable energy will have to make scientific and engineering advances to speed it up, just as the O&G scientists and engineers did, when they developed fracking techniques.

    As it said in Tugar's video,the O&G producers were forced to innovate, to save their industry, to survive OPEC attempts to drive them into bankruptcy. The result is that prices came down, when OPEC 'threw in the towel' (pun intended). That raised the 'tipping point' target for renewable energy, and stimulated them to work even harder at increasing their efficiency, in order to lower the price to consumers. But, eventually, oil prices will go up, again, and the renewables tipping point will get lower. Their goal should be to race toward that tipping point, to shorten the time. It's just economics.

    You can believe that O&G producers will eventually be investing in renewable projects and applying the same expertise and understanding to that as they applied to create an economic revolution in the oil business, with fracking. It will be quite a while, yet, maybe a couple of generations, because the geniuses in O&G are working their butts off to profit for as long as possible, but it is inevitable.



  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,663 Senior Member
    monopole magnets.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • GilaGila Posts: 1,828 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #5


    No good deed goes unpunished...
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,258 Senior Member
    Only reason there's an "energy crisis", "food crisis", or "water crisis"  is that two people keep having more than two kids between them.  Wouldn't it be easier to explore that angle?

    Make gasoline, not love.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 3,966 Senior Member
    You know what happens in a Petri dish when the resources are all gone.
     :# 
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • GilaGila Posts: 1,828 Senior Member
    Bigslug said:
    Only reason there's an "energy crisis", "food crisis", or "water crisis"  is that two people keep having more than two kids between them.  Wouldn't it be easier to explore that angle?

    Make gasoline, not love.
    Like the Chinese???
    No good deed goes unpunished...
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,445 Senior Member
    Bigslug said:
    Only reason there's an "energy crisis", "food crisis", or "water crisis"  is that two people keep having more than two kids between them.  Wouldn't it be easier to explore that angle?

    Make gasoline, not love.
    Soylent Green
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 3,966 Senior Member
    That was a cool movie.  :#
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    Why do all y'all wanna get rid of CO2? Plants EAT CO2 and exhale O2 and grow on the carbon. You wanna all die because you killed all the plants? Y'all some sick puppies! :#:#:D

    And...................ummmm....................how do I break the news to all y'all? Natural gas is made up of a BUNCH of flammable carbon based gases, and some gases that aren't flammable. So puttin' 'em back together ain't gonna be all that easy.

    Want renewable fuel? Try H2 and O2. The stuff in H20 form covers over 75% of the planet's surface to a great depth. Separating it is relatively easy  low voltage. Compress and liquefy it, and you have a fuel that when burned releases only H20. Kinda twitchy with handling the refueling, though.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,663 Senior Member
    No smoking.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    No smoking.
    No steel tools, either. Sparks are not your friend around hydrogen gas. And brass fittings. Looking for a hydrogen leak that has lit off is fun. "You smell something burning? AHHHhhhhh! It's ME! :#:D
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • GilaGila Posts: 1,828 Senior Member
    tennmike said:
    Why do all y'all wanna get rid of CO2? Plants EAT CO2 and exhale O2 and grow on the carbon. You wanna all die because you killed all the plants? Y'all some sick puppies! :#:#:D

    And...................ummmm....................how do I break the news to all y'all? Natural gas is made up of a BUNCH of flammable carbon based gases, and some gases that aren't flammable. So puttin' 'em back together ain't gonna be all that easy.

    Want renewable fuel? Try H2 and O2. The stuff in H20 form covers over 75% of the planet's surface to a great depth. Separating it is relatively easy  low voltage. Compress and liquefy it, and you have a fuel that when burned releases only H20. Kinda twitchy with handling the refueling, though.
    Hydrogen cars have been around for a long time, but no one I know of is working to make them viable.  This, in itself, goes to show that none of the other types of energy development have anything to do with renewable energy or protecting the environment...
    No good deed goes unpunished...
  • GilaGila Posts: 1,828 Senior Member
    Why would anyone want to convert hydrogen to electricity to power a vehicle?  The only downside to using hydrogen is being able to store the stuff in liquid form, and that is where innovators need to apply their energy.
    No good deed goes unpunished...
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,663 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #16
    Alfa is right about the conversion losses.
    BUT
    I wonder how a home based hydrogen plant would work with solar - that's kind of a way of "storing" energy from the sun - it works all day long and you refuel your car from the proceeds at nite. Theoretically efficient? No. Workable? I don't know.
    Then do you refuel a fuel cell or burn it in an ICE? Or both? Or even an ECE?
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,663 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #17
    I suspect the numbers aren't there for the above to be practical - and even if they are, I don't know how the costs for the solar adds in. *shrug*
    I read in EE Times at least 25 years ago, that "somebody" had come up with a way to make VERY cheap solar panels, something like 50 cents a watt if I remember correctly. Some kind of sputtering technique employed to make them. The resultant panels weren't quite as efficient as current technology, but they were going to be really cheap. They were projected to be 10 years away.
    That was the last I heard of it. Like a LOT of other wondrous promises, it didn't turn out to be so. Unfortunate. VERY unfortunate.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 3,966 Senior Member
    Another form of catch and kill.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #19
    Gila said:
    tennmike said:
    Why do all y'all wanna get rid of CO2? Plants EAT CO2 and exhale O2 and grow on the carbon. You wanna all die because you killed all the plants? Y'all some sick puppies! :#:#:D

    And...................ummmm....................how do I break the news to all y'all? Natural gas is made up of a BUNCH of flammable carbon based gases, and some gases that aren't flammable. So puttin' 'em back together ain't gonna be all that easy.

    Want renewable fuel? Try H2 and O2. The stuff in H20 form covers over 75% of the planet's surface to a great depth. Separating it is relatively easy  low voltage. Compress and liquefy it, and you have a fuel that when burned releases only H20. Kinda twitchy with handling the refueling, though.
    Hydrogen cars have been around for a long time, but no one I know of is working to make them viable.  This, in itself, goes to show that none of the other types of energy development have anything to do with renewable energy or protecting the environment...
    The reason is they're inferior to electric cars. Creating hydrogen and then converting it to electricity loses about 2/3rd of the energy you could just put directly into a battery. Then you have the difficulty in storing it and transporting it. All you need for electrics are battery chargers which plug into the existing electrical grid. Also if you think batteries are epensive get a look at the cost of fuel cells.
    And 'the grid' is mostly supplied by............................wait for it..........................FOSSIL FUELS! WHY DO YOU HATE THE ENVIRONMENT???!!! You rail about fossil fueled electricity in one breath, and then sing it's praises in another. Make up your mind! Are you washin' or hangin' out???!!!

    And all y'all, don't just take my word for it. Here's the skinny on what fuel source is used to produce the electricity.


    Fossil fuels produce 62.9% of the electricity generated in the U.S.

      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,663 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #20
    Again you're adding an additional expensive steps to the process Much much easier to just put that electricity from the solar panel into a battery. 
    Maybe, maybe not. Batteries are expensive, have a very limited lifespan, and the exotics used these days are VERY hard on the environment. Solar driven hydrogen production would probably be more environmentally friendly. Solar panels aren't as "bad" to make ecologically from what I understand.
    Now "the numbers" are another thing altogether!
    Still, if supercaps ever get large enough - we're now doing things with those that were unheard of when I went to tech school. A 1 farad capacitor was judged "impossible" - now multi farad caps are routine, albeit at low voltages.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,663 Senior Member
    I'll admit its probably been 10 years since I bought a solar panel - but they were $10/watt then. But what's all this environmental hand wringing I keep hearing about over battery production waste in China?
    Still, I really hope that supercaps continue to evolve - I really don't like batteries of any kind and avoid them as much as I can.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    Batteries cost less than  20% of what they cost just 7 years ago. Lithium is actually not hard on the environment at all. It's abondant in deep groundwater. Just pump it out of the ground and separate. Cobalt is a biproduct of other mining. Yes manufacturing takes energy but the efficiency gains make up for it really quickly. 

    If batteries stayed at $1000+/kwh like they were not long ago then hydrogen makes sense, but with batteries under $200/kwh and on their way to $100/kwh within a year or two hydrogen doesn't stand a chance.

    As for solar prices have dropped a ton. Pannels are now less than $1/watt. It actually costs more to install them than to buy them. 
    Lithium isn't hard on the environment? Say WHAT? Lithium reacts badly with water, as that causes it to turn into caustic lithium hydroxide. It has to be stored in naphtha to keep it in its pure form. And exposure to air makes it turn into lithium oxide rapidly. It's used in nuclear reactors to make tritium for gunsights, and nuclear weapons. It's sort of safe, but it has some drawbacks. I wouldn't recommend licking a bar of lithium.

    Still, hydrogen gas could still be useful as a fuel for vehicles, be they the hydrogen cell or I.C. engine. If you wanted 100 mile round trip range, an electrolysis system could be set up in the back yard with solar cells supplying power, and a pump to compress the H2 gas into high pressure bottles for use in the vehicle. Once the solar panels, pump, and high pressure containers are bought there will only be the cost of the electricity to run the pump if your solar cell array isn't up to the task. If it is, then it essentially becomes free non polluting energy.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,663 Senior Member
    edited January 2019 #23
    tennmike said:

    Still, hydrogen gas could still be useful as a fuel for vehicles, be they the hydrogen cell or I.C. engine. If you wanted 100 mile round trip range, an electrolysis system could be set up in the back yard with solar cells supplying power, and a pump to compress the H2 gas into high pressure bottles for use in the vehicle. Once the solar panels, pump, and high pressure containers are bought there will only be the cost of the electricity to run the pump if your solar cell array isn't up to the task. If it is, then it essentially becomes free non polluting energy.
    That's exactly what I was trying to say - the question becomes "the numbers". Can you produce "enough" gas with a "reasonable" number of solar cells in a place with a "reasonable" amount of sunlite? I have no idea - and of course "enough" and "reasonable" are highly subjective, how much power does it take to produce "enough" gas?
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    tennmike said:

    Still, hydrogen gas could still be useful as a fuel for vehicles, be they the hydrogen cell or I.C. engine. If you wanted 100 mile round trip range, an electrolysis system could be set up in the back yard with solar cells supplying power, and a pump to compress the H2 gas into high pressure bottles for use in the vehicle. Once the solar panels, pump, and high pressure containers are bought there will only be the cost of the electricity to run the pump if your solar cell array isn't up to the task. If it is, then it essentially becomes free non polluting energy.
    That's exactly what I was trying to say - the question becomes "the numbers". Can you produce "enough" gas with a "reasonable" number of solar cells in a place with a "reasonable" amount of sunlite? I have no idea - and of course "enough" and "reasonable" are highly subjective, how much power does it take to produce "enough" gas?
    Gonna depend on how many solar cells you can afford to do the electrolysis. The higher the voltage, the faster you can produce the gas. There's also the size engine you're feeding to consider, too. A small 1200-1400 cc engine vs. 426 hemi, and how much technogeek stuff you want. A/C would be nice, but you don't need much else.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • rberglofrberglof Senior Member Posts: 2,658 Senior Member
    Would something like this be worth while?

  • HappySquidHappySquid Member Posts: 383 Member
    Gila said:
    Why would anyone want to convert hydrogen to electricity to power a vehicle?  The only downside to using hydrogen is being able to store the stuff in liquid form, and that is where innovators need to apply their energy.
    We in  Europe are a little ahead of you : http://www.vdlbuscoach.com/News/News-Library/Wereldprimeur--VDL-Bus---Coach-levert-de-eerste.aspx?lang=en-US
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member

    Hindenburg disaster Lakehurst NJ 1937, it was filled with Hydrogen.


    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • GilaGila Posts: 1,828 Senior Member
    Gila said:
    Why would anyone want to convert hydrogen to electricity to power a vehicle?  The only downside to using hydrogen is being able to store the stuff in liquid form, and that is where innovators need to apply their energy.
    We in  Europe are a little ahead of you : http://www.vdlbuscoach.com/News/News-Library/Wereldprimeur--VDL-Bus---Coach-levert-de-eerste.aspx?lang=en-US
    BMW had a hydrogen powered vehicle on the road 30 years ago.
    No good deed goes unpunished...
  • GilaGila Posts: 1,828 Senior Member
    Big Chief said:

    Hindenburg disaster Lakehurst NJ 1937, it was filled with Hydrogen.


    The stuff burns good, don't it...
    No good deed goes unpunished...
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    rberglof said:
    Would something like this be worth while?

    People have been experimenting with that for a long time. Short answer is 'I don'tknow'. With the vehicles being computer controlled now I have no idea how one would react to an unmetered fuel being injected into the fule/air stream. And the actual efficiency of the HHO cell to separate water into H2 gas and O gas. It's something that is still in the early stages as to the engineering. The stats look good, though. If you're really interested in it, keep an eye on it. It may take off in the near future. That device is first generation; the second and third will be better as they learn more to increase efficiency.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    Big Chief said:

    Hindenburg disaster Lakehurst NJ 1937, it was filled with Hydrogen.


    The stuff works good for lighter than air vehicles, until a spark sets off a H2 gas leak, or lightning strikes it. Then POOF!, no more lighter than air vehicle. Leaks are hard to find, and if they have lit off from friction escaping the orifice the flame is invisible. Three simple ways to find a leak that is lit; accidentally run a body part through the flame, or use a rolled paper strip, or soapy water like you use to find a leak in a tire tube.

    The Hindenburg's outer skin was coated with a highly flammable coating for waterproofing. That made it burn a LOT quicker.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
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