Brexit???????????????

earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 3,746 Senior Member
I'm not sure whats going on???????

Does the majority of Parliament want out of the EU??????

Is Theresa May stalling??????

Does Northern Ireland want to remain part of the EU???????

I'm quite possibly, hopelessly confused???????

Replies

  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,180 Senior Member
    Me, too. Don't know all the variables involved in that mess. It was a lot easier to get into that mousetrap than it would appear to be to get out of it.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 4,641 Senior Member
    This is what I don't understand........what's the big deal? The EU was founded in 1993. Historically, not even the blink of an eye. I don't think a member dropping out is the economic end of the world as Europe knows it.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 3,746 Senior Member
    I think that the centralised control of currency, it's value, and what it gets spent on is likely a very big deal.

    What Im confused about is the desires and intentions of Britain.
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 4,641 Senior Member
    I'm thinking only a ship of fools would jump aboard that one in the first place.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,180 Senior Member
    Britain is finding out that being ruled by the Continental Court that was set up is not all that and a bag of chips. Rather than making their own way, Great Britain is being forced to go along with whatever the E.U. mandates that they 'shall do' without regard to the damage it will cause. Some of the other member countries are getting cold feet, and others are flagrantly violating the edicts coming from Brussels.

    I would make a Civil War reference, but I won't, since I just did! :D

    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,779 Senior Member
    The Euro is the worst thing that ever happened to Greece.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,694 Senior Member
    Think of Brexit in terms of a United States of Europe, in which state sovereignty is being diminished, and the 'federal' government sovereignty is being increased. Throw in the fact that most of Europe has embraced socialism to a much greater extent than the USA has, and that there is no electoral college type system that will keep the low population centers from being ruled by the high population centers.

    Then, throw in the immigration problems. Semi-socialistic governments, in countries that mostly consist of a single race and similar cultures that are well disciplined and somewhat submissive to government authority, seem to work fairly well...for awhile. Everyone 'perceives' that they are reaping equal benefits from the high taxes they pay, and there is some evidence to back up the Utopian notion that everyone is treated equally.

    But, when they start accepting refugees from less productive cultures, the underpinnings of socialistic governments start to show cracks in the foundation, because the producers are having to supply the funds to support too many non-producers, and they don't like it. The government tries to deny the problems, because they believe that they will otherwise be tarred as the same kind of racist politicians that they have criticized in the USA.

    Britain has figured this out, and the tax-payers want out of it, before they become too subservient to the EU to get out. They had a popular vote that demanded that the government make it happen, and the government cannot come up with a painless way to do it. Heads will roll, politically speaking, before the ship has been 'righted.'

    Politicians (being the same, everywhere) are fighting for their survival, with some being loyal to their constituents, and the rest trying to save their own asses, by voting again and using different arguments to try to save their jobs.
  • das68das68 Posts: 662 Senior Member
    edited January 22 #9
    This is what I don't understand........what's the big deal? The EU was founded in 1993. Historically, not even the blink of an eye.

    I don't think a member dropping out is the economic end of the world as Europe knows it.

    Mike


    about  £9 billion a year?

    in 2017 the UK would have been liable for £18.6 billion in contributions.

    but for eu spending???? and our "special rebate"

    hence the £39 billion divorce bill.







  • das68das68 Posts: 662 Senior Member
    edited January 22 #10
    I'm not sure whats going on???????

    you sound British



    Does the majority of Parliament want out of the EU??????

    it is not Parliament who chose

    it was a referendum

    a direct vote by the people

    it is just up to Parliament to implement that vote


    Is Theresa May stalling??????

    yes yes yes yes
    did I say yes


    Does Northern Ireland want to remain part of the EU???????

    northern Ireland is a province or an autonomous region of the UK

     not a independent country

     can't be a member state of the eu


    also they want to remain part of the UK
    wherever we may be

    it's in the small print

    The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland


    I'm quite possibly, hopelessly confused???????

    you are British








  • das68das68 Posts: 662 Senior Member
    I think that the centralised control of currency, it's value, and what it gets spent on is likely a very big deal.


     UK has never sought to adopt the euro currency
    the eu does not control the pound sterling





    What Im confused about is the desires and intentions of Britain.


    to leave


    The United States of Europe?

     the European state?

     the European super state?

     the European federatio?

     Federal Europe?


    this ain't what we joined up for










  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 3,746 Senior Member
    That definitely clarifies things.👍
  • das68das68 Posts: 662 Senior Member
    edited January 22 #13
    That definitely clarifies things.👍
    just a small edit

    the european army
    this scares the s*** out of me
    I have worked with most of them



    France and Germany seal new deal as Brexit looms

    • 47 minutes ago

    German Chancellor Angela Merkel said the treaty came amid "special times" with the rise of populism and nationalism.

    "For the first time, a country is leaving the European Union - in the form of Great Britain," she added.

    Those who forget the value of peace and spread lies are accomplices in the crimes of the past," Mr Macron said.

    "I would rather look our Europe in the face and strengthen it to protect our peoples. That is what we are doing," he added.

    Mrs Merkel also said Germany wants to "make our contribution to the emergence of a European army."

    "We are committed to developing a common military culture, a common defence industry and a common line on arms exports," Mrs Merkel said.

    The idea is not new - both leaders have called for a common European defence force that would operate within - and not replace - Nato.



    this?





    or this?


  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,772 Senior Member
    bisley said:

    Britain has figured this out, and the tax-payers want out of it, before they become too subservient to the EU to get out. They had a popular vote that demanded that the government make it happen, and the government cannot come up with a painless way to do it. Heads will roll, politically speaking, before the ship has been 'righted.'


    That's because there is no such thing. Breakups are always painful. The public demanded it, but now they don't want the pain and the politicians are unwilling to accept responsibility for the pain they will have to deliver along with the breakup. There will be pain. A lot of it. The sooner they accept that and take their medicine, the better off they'll be long term. 
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 3,746 Senior Member
    Hopefully any contentions will be contested economically.

    Its a tenuous hope, but I can't presently find better.

    Populism and nationalism does make me nervous.

    Threatening rhetoric aimed at independence makes me alarmed.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,772 Senior Member
    I'm not too worried about things getting heated that way. I'm more concerned with economic chaos from an unruly exit triggering more widespread economic pain given how linked the global economy is and how tenuous a position it is in. Won't take much to trigger another global recession.  

    Regarding populism and nationalism I agree with your caution. These sorts of movements want radical change. Long term radical change may be what's needed, but radical change requires tearing down a lot that already exists and that means pain, lots of it in the short term. There's also no guarantee that what comes after will be any better. Often it's much worse. 
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • das68das68 Posts: 662 Senior Member
    bisley said:

    Britain has figured this out, and the tax-payers want out of it, before they become too subservient to the EU to get out. They had a popular vote that demanded that the government make it happen, and the government cannot come up with a painless way to do it. Heads will roll, politically speaking, before the ship has been 'righted.'


      The public demanded it, but now they don't want the pain

    20 January 2019



  • das68das68 Posts: 662 Senior Member
    edited January 22 #18
    I'm not too worried about things getting heated that way.
    do you know much about the history of spain and gib
     independence?

    look up Catalan Independence 2014
      you might get the idea




  • das68das68 Posts: 662 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    The Euro is the worst thing that ever happened to Greece.
    ain't done Italy any good


  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,180 Senior Member
    das68 said:
    do you know much about the history of spain and gib
     independence?

    look up Catalan Independence 2014
      you might get the idea



    Catalonia and Gibraltar are both going to be fish bones stuck in the throat of Brexit and the EU in general. Gibraltar wants to stay in the EU and Spain is lobbying heavily to retake what they lost to Britain several centuries ago. And Catalonia wants independence from Spain and to be an independent country.

    And a combined continental European army with like weapons and combined arms manufacturing? That doesn't sound like something to give you that warm fuzzy feeling, does it!
     
    And nationalism and populism aren't necessarily bad. But they can turn bad depending on who happens to be in charge at the time, and what a large minority can do to make it go sour. Nazi Germany, anyone? How about Italy and Mussolini?
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,694 Senior Member
    x
    bisley said:

    Britain has figured this out, and the tax-payers want out of it, before they become too subservient to the EU to get out. They had a popular vote that demanded that the government make it happen, and the government cannot come up with a painless way to do it. Heads will roll, politically speaking, before the ship has been 'righted.'


    That's because there is no such thing. Breakups are always painful. The public demanded it, but now they don't want the pain and the politicians are unwilling to accept responsibility for the pain they will have to deliver along with the breakup. There will be pain. A lot of it. The sooner they accept that and take their medicine, the better off they'll be long term. 
    Correct. You have very deftly grasped the obvious, without ever bothering to ask what the public opinion was, when they were being steered into the EU, in the first place. Which side were you on when sensible politicians were predicting these very problems that have so disenchanted the public, now? You didn't mention that 'pain,' as far as I can recollect.


  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,772 Senior Member
    bisley said:
    x
    bisley said:

    Britain has figured this out, and the tax-payers want out of it, before they become too subservient to the EU to get out. They had a popular vote that demanded that the government make it happen, and the government cannot come up with a painless way to do it. Heads will roll, politically speaking, before the ship has been 'righted.'


    That's because there is no such thing. Breakups are always painful. The public demanded it, but now they don't want the pain and the politicians are unwilling to accept responsibility for the pain they will have to deliver along with the breakup. There will be pain. A lot of it. The sooner they accept that and take their medicine, the better off they'll be long term. 
    Correct. You have very deftly grasped the obvious, without ever bothering to ask what the public opinion was, when they were being steered into the EU, in the first place. Which side were you on when sensible politicians were predicting these very problems that have so disenchanted the public, now? You didn't mention that 'pain,' as far as I can recollect.


    I was 12 so I probably didn't have strong opinions about European policy back then....
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 3,746 Senior Member
    No deal?
    Second referendum?
    Parliamentary break down?
    Default to EU?
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,180 Senior Member
    No deal?
    Second referendum?
    Parliamentary break down?
    Default to EU?
    GB could carpet bomb Brussels. That would cure most of the problem.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 3,746 Senior Member
    Funny you should say that considering my international news source tonight was DW.. Maybe not quite fair and balanced??? I'll have to catch the BBC when time allows this week.
  • HappySquidHappySquid Member Posts: 287 Member
    edited March 15 #26
    All this crap started before the BREXIT referendum when Politicians promised the voters a pot of gold at the end of the Rainbow. ( they lied as politicians do)
    Now the same politicians dont have the balls to tell the voters there is NO Rainbow !! 

    So ENGLAND wants to leave the EU with all the perks from the EU but fulfilling non of their own dues to the EU 

    England wants an open border between the Irish Republic (an EU-member)  and Northern Ireland, Impossible with the Brexit, but cannot have a closed border between them because of what happened between 1910 and 1995.

    Now their PM negociated the max from the EU and thats too little for the politicians,  they are SOL !  in 14 days they have to give a GOOD alternative or they are stone cold out of the EU with a closed border between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland, what basically ignites the civil   war over there again.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 3,746 Senior Member
    Sounds incredibly familiar. Soap boxing from the fence top only works if there's no witnesses to the dismount.

    Seems like Parliament is going to have to default to remaining in the EU and weather the storm from the citizenry at the ballot box.
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,641 Senior Member
    Saw on yesterday's evening news UK's deadline extension requires a unanimous approval of all 27 EU members. Good luck with that!!!  
  • HappySquidHappySquid Member Posts: 287 Member
    edited March 15 #29
    sgtrock  thats what happens when you want your cake and eat it :(  bad thing is that those who voted leave are gonna be the real loosers :(  )

    One of the main instigators for the leave referendum in the first place is a stock-market Multi billionaire with political "friends" ,  guess who is not gonna loose sleep  either way .


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