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350 ledgend

FreezerFreezer Senior MemberPosts: 1,756 Senior Member
My nephew and I have been talking about this cartridge and came up with a thought. Though it was designed as a hunting cartridge could it be loaded with pistol powder at subsonic speeds and used for HD in an AR pistol? Say 7"or 8" with a suppressor? There are a number of fine bullets designed for the 357 diameter for HD?
I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
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Replies

  • Big Al1Big Al1 Senior Member Posts: 7,827 Senior Member
    I was wondering when someone would come out with a .35 for the AR platform!! It reminds of my 1907Win.  351 WSL. I've formed case from 5.56/.223 cases. It's pretty much just a .300 BO necked up to .35, .352 to be precise. The .350 looks like a full length untapered 5.56 case and shoots the .357 diameter. One plus is ammo will be affordable!
    https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2019/01/21/shot-show-2019-sig-sauer-bdx-system-future-long-range/

  • WeatherbyWeatherby Senior Member Posts: 4,953 Senior Member
    Zee's next hog cartridge I see it coming.
    I actually think this one would have some staying power.
  • Elk creekElk creek Senior Member Posts: 6,463 Senior Member
    I would gut one in a bolt gun just for grins. A Ruger American would be cool. 
    Aim higher, or get a bigger gun.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,025 Senior Member
    If it can be made from .223 Rem brass.....there is potential. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,096 Senior Member
    CMMG has already announced an AR for it

    And Winchester has come out with a subsonic load for it

    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • FreezerFreezer Senior Member Posts: 1,756 Senior Member
    I'm not a big AR fan but I was thinking this would be cool in a Marlin Lever gun or NEF Handi or even a Contender,  What's not to like 30-30 power and 243 recoil. 
    I have a Contender and a Handi.
    I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
  • Elk creekElk creek Senior Member Posts: 6,463 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    If it can be made from .223 Rem brass.....there is potential. 
    This!
    Aim higher, or get a bigger gun.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,096 Senior Member
    I can see myself getting an upper in this caliber
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,096 Senior Member
    Also, starline sells "223 Basic" brass. Looks like all it would need is a light trim from it's stock 1.8" to 1.71" to be GTG
    https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/223-Basic/

    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,128 Senior Member
    There is a piece of .223 brass in the man cave that has been necked up to .35 from when I was working on the SJS cartridges. It has been done before, but this time it has been picked up by a major manufacturer.

    It is a very good solution for the people in Ohio, Indiana, southern Michigan, and others that require straight walled cartridges with a certain maximum length for deer hunting, and they have it chambered in an affordable bolt rifle.

    It does have a lot of potential in an AR15 upper as well.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,096 Senior Member
    Concerning a 7" barrel and "regular" .357 bullets for HD. Pushing them hard enough to get the gun to run is possibly/probably going to have them running fast enough to act like varmint bullets on impact.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,156 Senior Member
    I was I was just looking at the 350 legend this morning as a deer round for the kiddo out of an AR. I may build/buy an upper to play with once parts and ammo become available


    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,025 Senior Member
    I’m not interested in the AR platform option. 

    More looking at a bolt action rifle or single shot pistol option. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,445 Senior Member
    "Winchester’s legendary tradition of innovation continues with the 350 Legend, the fastest straight-walled hunting cartridge in the world."

    What is the .430 SJS doing with 240gr bullets?

    My little .458 is throwing 325gr FTX bullets to 2100 FPS with room to improve even when using W296 already, and 300gr HP bullets to 2200 FPS with IMR 4227 when it could be pushed a good bit faster with W296.  I could probably push the 300gr to 2400 FS, but that would be 200 PS above its rated velocity max.  I want to say my software was showing that I could push a Speer 350gr to just over 2350 FPS.  I dont hate my shoulder that much though.

    The .350 is claiming a 150gr at 2325 and that is moving along indeed, but step up to the 180gr and you are down to 2100 already.  Yes I know, this is a factory cartridge where as the .430 SJS and my little .458 are not.


    Now all that said, I may have to think about this down the road for something to turn my .300 BO bolt gun into.  
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,398 Senior Member
    That would be interesting cartridge in a short action bolt rifle. And with that basic brass being available, a rifle in .323 bullet diameter would be even more interesting. Some good .32/8mm bullets kicking around out there from light to heavy. And the .32 just doesn't get any love in the U.S. Great caliber, but no interest in it.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,445 Senior Member
    I have a Remington 700 SPS in .300 BO that would be my candidate for a change.  The "shotgun zone" rules dictate a minimum of .35 caliber.   This is why the .32 caliber range gets no love with these new cartridges.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,128 Senior Member
    edited January 2019 #18
    We were getting 2700fps with a 180gr bullet in the .430 SJS and that was being conservative. The 265gr FTX-- I had them going 2250fps with room to spare. 240gr XTP's can go 2400fps without a problem. Our real goal was to get the same velocities as a .444 Marlin, which was not an issue.

    This was using H110 powder.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,445 Senior Member
    Dang.  Didnt know you were pushing a 180gr that fast.  Even the 240 and 265 are cooking along.  

    I want to say the software has my pressures maxing out around 56k PSI.  This is with my current maximum charge of W296 and a 325gr FTX.  If I can find the velocity range for the Speer 350gr I might see what I can do with that one.  2200 FPS should be fairly easy with it.

    A .35 caliber straight walled rifle cartridge would allow for a lot of fun options.  Load it with pistol bullets for cheap plinking or load with rifle bullets and push velocity for hunting, or plinking if you want. 

    With how my little .458 seems to like the cast lead bullets, I do rather enjoy lobbing a 405-500gr chunk of lead at 1000-1100 FPS at targets.  Its rather enjoyable.  I can see this .350 being the same way.  The 325gr loads are just not a whole lot of fun from the bench.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,128 Senior Member
    Our conservative goal was to run them at 52,000psi according to the software. The brass and bolt actions should handle 62,000psi easily, but I would want to actually measure those pressures before working that high.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 3,969 Senior Member
    This new offering reminds me of a rimless .357 maximum with the bugs worked out.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_Remington_Maximum
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,128 Senior Member
    I was I was just looking at the 350 legend this morning as a deer round for the kiddo out of an AR. I may build/buy an upper to play with once parts and ammo become available


    Give 6x45 a serious look.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,025 Senior Member
    The .35cal is truly one of my favorites. I will have to see where this one goes. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,096 Senior Member
    edited January 2019 #24
    Spk said:
    This new offering reminds me of a rimless .357 maximum with the bugs worked out.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_Remington_Maximum
    From what I am finding on the web, they slightly tweaked and legitimized the wildcat 357 MaximumAR
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,025 Senior Member
    If MGM ends up tooling for a Contender barrel or Ruger makes one in a compact American, I could be tooling up for a new cartridge. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,499 Senior Member
    I am almost sure mgm will chamber that cartridge 
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,262 Senior Member
    knitepoet said:

    And Winchester has come out with a subsonic load for it

    I'm pretty sure that "A Man, a Can, a Plan" was a cookbook, however. . .

    I did some fiddling around with an online ballistics calculator.  I took a SWAG and called the B.C. .330 and plugged in a speed of 1100 fps.

    A 100 yard zero will peak around 3.2" high at 50 yards and be 4.6" low at 125
    No joy here in Cali for that action, but it's an interesting possibility.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 3,969 Senior Member
    Freezer said:
    My nephew and I have been talking about this cartridge and came up with a thought. Though it was designed as a hunting cartridge could it be loaded with pistol powder at subsonic speeds and used for HD in an AR pistol? Say 7"or 8" with a suppressor? There are a number of fine bullets designed for the 357 diameter for HD?
    There's no reason why you couldn't load it to subsonic velocities. The question is, "Could you make it work reliably with a 7" - 8" barrel AR and would the results be worth it?"

    Could you use it for HD? That's up to you. If you want to.

    Most of the .357 HD bullets I've seen are kinda light 115 - 135 grain, in that neighborhood at least (you could use a 158).  At subsonic speeds using light bullets (around 1060 fps), you've just made a .38 Special loaded with +P ammo. If it cycles correctly, then you have a hi-cap .38 Special -- just sayin'


    Freezer said:
    I'm not a big AR fan but I was thinking this would be cool in a Marlin Lever gun or NEF Handi or even a Contender,  What's not to like 30-30 power and 243 recoil
    I have a Contender and a Handi.
    I guess what they don't put in the advertising so that it's "In your Face" is it kinda depends on your ammo selection. BTW, what do they mean by "Power"?  That's an interesting and deliberate word choice.

    I know what power means in physics but when used in advertising it can mean several other things to.

    There own 265 grain subsonic offering has an adequate HD trajectory.
    https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Rifle/Super-Suppressed/SUP350

    This ammo would slap you pretty hard.


    I like the Contender idea, I think that would be a fun gun to shoot! B)

    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,499 Senior Member
    It will be using 9mm bullets
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,499 Senior Member
    From JD Jones:
    "350 LEGEND. Again. This is going to get out anyway so I’ll be the first to squeal-/- maybe like a stuck pig. (Which farm boys will understand). Here it comes. Finally got time to sit down and look over the drawings furnished by WW. Guess what? It is a 35-/_ bore diameter .346; groove diameter .355! OoooKaa. Forget standard 357 mag bullets and look for a new crop of 9 MMs. I assume there is good reason behind that but doggone if I can think of a good one. Depending on cartridge wall thickness and actual chamber dimensions I have no doubt some 357-8 bullets will be sent downrange and I predict some interesting things will happen."

    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,025 Senior Member
    Well, scratch ME off the list. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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