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350 ledgend

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  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,242 Senior Member
    mitdr774 said:
    A little family portrait for Zee.


    Some of those are belted cases.  They cant all be 350 legend- what are they?
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • Six-GunSix-Gun Senior Member Posts: 8,150 Senior Member
    cpj said:
    Six-Gun said:
    As far as the 9mm bullet mistake (and it is a mistake) that WW is making, the only salvation is going to be putting out a reasonable selection of purpose-built bullets that can take the velocity required for effective hunting.  In other words, they need to reinvent the wheel and make some .357 mag-equivalent projectiles in .355" that would be worth mentioning.  Seems like an unnecessary convolution when they could've done the smart thing and make it a handloader's paradise from the giddy up.

    I'll go out on a limb and assert that with any new round, those who buy factory ammo will continue to do so while those who reload will generally refuse to buy factory-only ammo. 
    Look at the drawings. It’s .357
    Gotcha.  For whatever reason, I’m not seeing the additional pages to this thread in the index.  It’s reverting the cached version until I click into it and can see that it has multiple pages now.
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,131 Senior Member
    Some of those are belted cases.  They cant all be 350 legend- what are they?
    His own .458 southern Michigan legal wildcat.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,481 Senior Member
    The ones on the left are .223 basic brass at 1.790" with a .358 bullet stuffed in them.  In order to work properly it would require minimal fire forming to expand the case to the correct dimension.  As is it is 0.002" larger diameter at the case mouth with a seated bullet than it is at the head.  While this dimension would be smaller than the 350 Legend, I would probably keep the longer length (1.790 vs 1.710) to keep one from chambering in a gun chambered for the other.  The 350 would be too fat to fit in the ".358x1.8" and the ".358x1.8" would be too long to fit in the 350.

    The ones on the right are .458x1.8.  Belted magnum cut down to 1.790" and then a .458 rifle bullet stuffed in it.  Current load for the 325gr FTX is using W296 powder and hitting 2100 FPS.  I should be able to push to 2200 FPS and still be in the safe limits.  The goal with that one was to match .450 BM 250gr factory ammunition velocity, with a 325gr .458 bullet.  Im 100 FPS shy, but I am in the ball park of .45-70 and .450 Marlin 325 gr FTX factory load velocity.

    Loaded with heavy lead bullets at 1100 FPS the .458x1.8 is a joy to shoot.  Loaded to .45-70 levels and its not so much fun.  A ".358x1.8" has potential to be a lot more fun on an abuse per round and cost per round factor.  I have often refered to my little .458 as my shoulder smasher.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,440 Senior Member
    There's some nice cartridges from their parent .458 Magnum and .375 H&H Magnum floating around out there. At least 2 of the .458 ones are legitimate cartridges, and have been for a long while. And most will fit a .308 Winchester sized action. Sling the big bullets without risking 'Taco Should:disappointed: Syndrome'! :D

    That .350 Legend is beginning to look interesting. Being a true .358 bullet slinger, that would make a nice cartridge for the heavy woods in the East where shots are 100 yards or less.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,481 Senior Member
    After consulting with someone who knows a thing or two about cartridge design issues and guns in general, I made a length change to the cases to match 350 length.  Looking like my .300 BO is going to get a new barrel in .35 caliber. 

    If the idea is a bust, it would be a simple enough rechamber job to convert to the 350.  If that is a bust then the barrel comes off and becomes something like a 358 Winchester. 

    Initial quick load numbers with the shorter case, but seating long (reamer would be set up for that if the project goes through) has me in the neighborhood of .35 Remington load  data.

    Even if I build this, the .458x1.8 will still be my go to for the woods until it has at least harvested one deer.  I can't bail on my first "unique" build.

    I see my .458 as about a 150 yard gun, but I couldn't see pushing this .358 much past 100 yards.  The .358 bullets shed velocity fast.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,317 Senior Member
    MGM will have barrels available in April. 
    Called them and their reamer is cut for .357cal bullets. So, anything that runs in a .357 Mag will work. 

    https://matchgrademachine.com/winchester-350-legend/?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=winchester+350+legend&utm_campaign=350+Legend
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,261 Senior Member
    edited February 2019 #99
    FYI, CMMG is now listing 350 Legend AR platform rifles ($1050-1550) Uppers ($675-775) and a 16" barrel ($200)
    Plus 5 and 10 round mags (Supposedly a different follower???) (Both $18)
    They're all listed as out of stock at the moment.
    I was hoping for an 18-20" AR barrel

    https://www.cmmginc.com/?s=350+legend&post_type=product

    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,261 Senior Member
    edited February 2019 #100
    OUCH!!!!!!
    This is not my day, on the 350 Legend front. I've made quite a few phone calls this morning and ALL of the news has been BAD.

    1) Redding has announced they will be making dies for it.
    They're putting it in their "custom cartridge" line, which means a 3 die set will run us $229 MSRP

    2) Called Starline, guy I spoke with said he had a piece of Win 350 Legend brass in hand.
    According to him, the 223 basic brass will not work, as SPK's post above mentions.

    3) Winchester has no plans to release brass or bullets for reloaders at this time, so factory ammo is going to be the only game in town for a while.

    Now for the ONLY thing close to good news I've run into today...
    Same guy at Starline said that with all of the buzz it's generating, there is a good chance they will tool up and start making 350 Legend brass, once it's out, and they see the demand is there

    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,317 Senior Member
    edited February 2019 #101
    Gonna wait for the smoke to clear and some load data to come out see if it’s worth it or just a mimic of a .35 Rem for my purposes. 

    I am very happy with my .357 Mags and .35 Remingtons. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,481 Senior Member
    Based on the numbers I get from the .223 basic brass, and seating rather long (I would have the throat on the reamer set up for the long seating depth) I see no reason to not be able to hit .35 Remington velocities, maybe a little faster.
  • FreezerFreezer Senior Member Posts: 1,781 Senior Member
    I wonder if this would be a good time for Remington to legitimize the 357 AR? It could be like the 6mm Rem vs 243 Win all over again with Remington coming out on the good side this time.
    I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,440 Senior Member
    I have an intermediate length Mauser action that I've been wondering what to do with. All this talk about .35 Remington got me interested in the cartridge again. I have a Remington pump and a Marlin lever action in that chambering. Putting that on a bolt action might be interesting with an 18" barrel. And I have a .358 barrel blank on hand. It would be a really good one for the short range deer hunting around these parts.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,481 Senior Member
    Altering a follower to work with the magazine box (factory .300 BO box with the spacer removed) and allow for what should be proper feeding.  Previous attempt resulted in the last round getting stuck under the feed lip just before popping out.  This looks like a promising option.  Worst case if the .358x1.8 and 350 are a complete bust, I will have a magazine box that will allow long .223 rounds.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,317 Senior Member

    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,481 Senior Member
    Did you actually get your hands on some?

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,317 Senior Member
    Nah, just a pic from MGM. They got their ammo in for testing in their barrels. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,481 Senior Member
    Bummer.  I was hoping ammunition was out already.  Once Manson is producing reamers I may pick one up as a fall back option.  
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,242 Senior Member
    Zee said:

    I kinda want to see what a heavy hard cast full wadcutter would do in that case.


    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,261 Senior Member
    I kinda want to see what a heavy hard cast full wadcutter would do in that case.


    I'm wondering about my 164gr LBT bullets in it myself
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • 41magnut41magnut Senior Member Posts: 1,211 Senior Member
    OK Ruger, take my money.

    "The .30-06 is never a mistake." Townsend Whelen :iwo:
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,481 Senior Member
    In a couple days I should have a couple boxes of the 145gr FMJ USA target ammunition in my hands.  The plan is to set one box aside and then rip apart at least a couple of rounds from the other box to start comparing to the .223 Basic and maybe try to figure out what it can be pushed to with hand loads.  I know QL isnt the most accurate with straight walled cases, but it should be close enough to provide a rough idea.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,261 Senior Member
    Looking forward to your results
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,481 Senior Member
    edited April 2019 #115
    Dies have been ordered.  Mainly interested in the seating die and crimp die as the current case idea can be sized and expanded in .357 Magnum dies.  Just can crimp with the .357 dies I have and I have to play musical seating stems between dies to seat with the .357 dies.

    Not like I wont need the 350 dies if the current plan is a bust anyways.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    edited April 2019 #116
    Yeah... that does make it less appealing.  

    Oh well, a Ruger American Compact in .243 is back to being the hunting rifle for the kiddo.
    Outside of a good .250 Savage I think that is the very best choice for a kid. I bring up the old .250 because I have one and I consider it when used with 110-115 grain bullets the king monkey of women and kids guns. But In fact, as for recoil I think the .243 is superior even to the .250 if you use some of the heavier bullets in the .250. A ..250 with a 115 grain bullet is surly a better killer, but not by much and believe it or not, it has substantially more recoil. It gave my ex wife a big ol' shiner so bad that I was afraid people were gonna think I had punched her. OK, I'll stop my blabbering, but I will say, I'm becoming more of a fan of the .243 all the time. Especially in a really light rifle.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    edited April 2019 #117
    As for this 9mm thangi, I too would prefer a .358 diameter bullet simply because, as stated above, good hunting bullets, other than what Winchester is making specifically for this aren't available in this diameter. So they take the reloader out of the equation. And that sucks. Oh I'm sure that down the road at some point, and maybe sooner than later they will make components available, but at first glance this is not my cup of tea.

    Actually, for my own, and not so much for a kid's use, if I wanted a large diameter bore in an AR I'd opt for the Wulf. In fact, one day I'll have one.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,481 Senior Member
    I will be using a .358 barrel on a Rem 700 short action for my straight walled build.  If it doesn't work out I can recut the chamber to a 350 legend and then use .358 bullets if I so choose.
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,481 Senior Member
    edited April 2019 #119
    I know its a small sample size at a whole 3 rounds, but here is what I have come up with.

                        1                    2                    3
    COAL        2.208"            2.209"            2.208"

    overall       268.4gr          268.8gr          266.9gr
    weight

    case          1.705"            1.704"            1.704"
    length

    case          102.4gr          102.2gr          100.8gr
    weight

    case          35.7gr            35.8gr            36.0gr       
    H2O

    bullet         145.0gr          145.5gr          144.9gr
    .355"

    powder      21.1gr            21.1gr            21.1gr


    body diameter (same for all 3)

    mouth       .386"

    mid           .380"

    head         .376"




    Three sample cartridges pulled compared to factory round.





    350 Legend 145gr, .223 Basic cut to 1.705" with 180gr.












    Can anyone ID this powder?  Doesnt match any of the open canisters of pistol powder I have.  With a few exceptions they are all a ball shape.


  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,481 Senior Member
    I decided to run a couple of the cases I pulled through the Lee dies.  I came across an interesting issue when I expander the case mouth to see about seating bullets.  The factory 145gr bullets drop right in until they hit the bottom of the expanded portion of the case.  The cases are expanded to work with .357 or .358 bullets just fine though.  Either Winchester put out incorrect information on bullet diameter,  or they are using a .355 bullet in the target rounds for some reason.  Will 2-3 thousandth undersized have that big of an impact on the cheap target ammunition that it will be an issue, or will this cartridge and the firearms it goes in be forgiving enough??

    I'm still planning on going forward with my little project with a .358 barrel and bullets though.

    Winchester factory 145, Speer 180 .358, and Hornady 200 .358


  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,481 Senior Member
    Just a little update for those interested.  Ruger has released the American chambered in 350 Legend.  They are already in the hands of at least one dealer and for sale.  Ruger beat Winchester to market with Winchester's newest cartridge.  I do find this rather funny.
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