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350 ledgend

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  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,096 Senior Member
    edited May 2019 #122
    Here's another update.
    Besides the 4 loads Winchester announced with the cartridge introduction, Hornady had announced  1 load for it in their "Whitetail" line with a 170gr interlock SP and Federal has 3 loads listed. 180gr Power-Shok, 180gr SP in their "Non-Typical" line and a 160gr load in their "Fusion" line.

    All the loads, except for the 145gr FMJ Winchester load are listed as "Notify me when in stock" everywhere I can find them listed, but it seems the round is gaining some traction with other manufacturers

    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,445 Senior Member
    So far Winchester and Hornady are using .355" bullets.  Rumor is that Federal is going to use a .357".
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,096 Senior Member
    Just found out LEE has dies listed for it, a LOT cheaper than the $200+ I first heard about.
     $41.98 for steel dies and $15.98 for a collet crimp die
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,445 Senior Member
    Lee dies are set up for .357 bullets. 
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,156 Senior Member
    so- is everyone just making up their own specs?  Will those differences in bullet diameter matter?
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,096 Senior Member
    edited May 2019 #127
    so- is everyone just making up their own specs?  Will those differences in bullet diameter matter?
    Well, the whole 357/9mm aspect seems to be a mute point. I was reading an article by Brian Pierce, last week, where he measured a bunch of Colts. Their 357 mag barrels are a lot tighter than the .355" folks were worried about on here.

    So for me, once I get one built, I'll shoot the .357 jacketed and .358 cast like I had initially planned.



    Been playing in QL, and 1900-2000 fps with one of these 164gr LBTs should be easily doable in a "light" load that should still function a gas gun.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,096 Senior Member
    FYI, this is what one of those exact bullets do @ an average 1307fps MV when shot into wet newsprint @ ~10'




    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,445 Senior Member
    I was able to find a box of Winchester 180gr Power Point factory ammunition.  Contrary to what Winchester states on the box I have to report that they are not using a .357" bullet in the hunting loads.  I had hoped that the 145gr FMJ was undersized for some reason and that the hunting loads would use the claimed diameter bullet.  The pulled projectile however measures out at 0.3545" diameter.  The finish on the brass is also leaving a lot to be desired.  Winchester will need to be careful if they want this cartridge to succeed and replace the .450 Bushmaster.  

    Im going to stick with the .223 basic brass for now.  The reamer being made will have a very slight taper to it (0.0005") and I should still be able to use .357 dies to size it once fire formed.  Once the reamer is finished I will be spending time with my dad to get this project going.  Since I dont know how well its going to turn out and dont want to invest too much into it for now, I found an inexpensive take off factory plastic stock to replace the disaster of a stock the 700-AAC comes with.  
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,445 Senior Member
    First 10 test rounds for when the barrel is fit and chambered.  The brass still needs to be fire formed to be at correct diameter for the full length.  Should be able to size the brass with a .357 magnum die once formed.

    Just Trail boss and a 180gr powder coated cast bullet.




    Compared to a .357 Magnum with the same bullet.


  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,445 Senior Member
    edited July 2019 #131
    Well, curiosity got the better of me.  Picked up a Ruger American in .350 Legend with a 22" barrel.   I need to dig up a scope to put on it though.  I did do the unsientific test of driving a cast bullet in the barrel to check the bore.  Sure enough its a .355" bore.  That being said I did previously fire some .358 bullets through my 77/357, so starting low and working up might produce some good results.



  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,156 Senior Member
    I await the range report!
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,025 Senior Member
    I await the range report!
    This. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,445 Senior Member
    edited July 2019 #134
    Initial range trip will only be with factory ammunition.  From there i need to decide what route I want to go with for reloading.  I may see about building the cartridge in QL and then seeing what that says about pressure between the different bore diameters.  Im sure that it will be alright with the .358" bullets as long as the chamber will allow a proper release from the case.


    edit:

    I may also look into the option of running .358 bullets through a .356 sizing die as well.  I have to compare the measurements I get from the factory ammunition to the SAAMI drawing to see if there is potentially even enough room in the chamber.  My .358x1.71 will fit, but it has a thinner case at the mouth than the .350 Legend is supposed to have.
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,445 Senior Member
    edited July 2019 #135
    Mild disappointment at the range today.  Since all I have available at the moment is factory Winchester (their rifle ammunition has never really impressed me much) I went in with low expectations, and I wasnt wrong.  The 145 FMJ did okay for be cheapish practice ammunition.  I used that to get at least close at 50 yards before moving to 100 yards.  The 180 and 150 were a decent disappointment, with the 180 more so than the 150.  Only two pictures of the target even kinda worth using.


    145gr FMJ 50 yards 5 shot group 0.982"



    150gr XP 100 yards 5 shot group 1.520"



    180gr 100 yards 5 shout group .............  didnt bother with a picture


    I also took my M70 in .243 to try out a couple loads I didnt get to before.  Im glad I did.  The groups from the .243 made me feel better about my shooting abilities today.


    It seems to not mind the 95gr SST too much.



    I have never had much luck with Nosler bullets in the past, but I wanted to at least give them a shot.

    90gr NBT 100 yards 5 shot group 0.891".  The flyer was on me, but its part of the group.  It was the second round in the string.



    90gr NBT 100 yards 5 shot group 0.922".  I have no excuses here, but this is closer to my expectations for Nosler bullets.



    Another reason to take the .243 was a very unscientific recoil comparison.  The .350 felt like a sharper recoil that maybe didnt hit quite as hard, but the .243 felt like a slower recoil impulse even if it did maybe hit just a little bit harder.  I found the .243 to be much more enjoyable to shoot.  That may have been partly due to the way the rifles were shooting though.  

    Next step will be to see about a bullet sizing die to try and resize some .358 bullets down to .356 and see how they shoot.  If this gun keeps this up it will either go away or become a .223.  I am starting to get more antsy to get back to my .358x1.71 project now since I think it will perform better.
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,933 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    I’m not interested in the AR platform option. 

    More looking at a bolt action rifle or single shot pistol option. 

    My Father had a Montgomery Wards 30/30 bolt action. I think it was a Savage. It was a good shooter. A buddy had a Thompson Center 30/30 pistol. It was quite an experience to shoot.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,495 Senior Member
    I'm not surprised you had bad results with Winchester ammo.
    I've read about issues like variable case length (visually apparent in some instances) and undersized bullets (.354 or under) have been reported. 
    Overkill is underrated.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,025 Senior Member
    The more I read, the more this appears to be an ill thought and prepared endeavor by Winchester and the platforms. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,445 Senior Member
    I just inspected and checked my fired cases.  Winchester will be getting a nasty gram.  Case length varies by 0.020".  I had several at max length of 1.710" and several at 1.690" with a whole mess of them below 1.700".  This  brings me to my next issue that I didn't notice till after i was done shooting for the day.



    This is one box of the 145 FMJ.  Lot number 15PC82.

    At least 5, but possibly 8 of them.  The other box is about the same percentage. 






    The 150 and 180 did not pierce any primers, but a few look like they were close.

    I will see about buying some brass to load up and see how it performs.  I plan on using a 1.705"trim length.  Even if my chamber is at max length it will put me at 0.015" headspace compared to a potential 0.030" with the factory brass.

    Yep, the .358x1.71 will be a far better option I think.  I withhold judgement on this cartridge until I have a chance to test it further.  .358 bullets are not an option with the chamber in my rifle, so this may just become a paper puncher with 9mm bullets.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,025 Senior Member
    Enjoy your endeavor. I’m popping smoke and moving out on any hopes this cartridge will be worth the effort. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,445 Senior Member
    When my .358 project gets rolling I will be sure to compare it.  If I can use .223 basic brass, .358 bullets, and size in a .357 magnum die all while knocking on the door of .35 Remington velocities (with the same bullet) I see it as a very comfortable alternative to my .458x1.8.  I think the way that Winchester has gone about it was a mistake. 

    I understand that at least one company already makes a reamer to open the throat up to accept .358 bullets.  I did try and a .358 bullet will not fit in the throat in my rifle.  Lots of mistakes happened with this design and SAAMI certification.  I suspect most were done with the intention to keep it a proprietary cartridge and component option for a while.  If it was a true .357 as Winchester has repeatedly claimed then options would be opened up to a whole bunch of things to play with, but a .355 bore and .357 throat limit options greatly.

    I have a .356 bullet sizing die on the way.  Hopefully I can push some 180gr jacketed bullets through it and have acceptable results.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 10,925 Senior Member
    I looked into this and about the only positive I found is compared to other calibers factory ammo is very inexpensive.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,445 Senior Member
    I am finding that there is a reason for that.   The factory Winchester ammunition is junk.  Compared to the other factory offerings that are legal in the "limited firearm zone" it has some decent theoretical advantages.  As far as I can figure, its closest factory offered competition would be the .450 BM.  I have never fired a .450 BM, but having been at the range when people were firing them I would rather sit next to a guy shooting a .350 Legend.  Recoil is fairly minimal.  Even my low end loads for my .458x1.8 (300gr at 2000 FPS) were much more stout recoiling than any of the factory .350 ammunition I shot today.

    Hopefully I can size some Speer 180gr .358 bullets down to .356 and launch them around 2200 FPS from this thing.  

    I may take some of my .223 basic brass and see if I can sort out my exact headspace length.  If I have a max length chamber (1.720") then I will try to keep my brass trimmed to work with that length instead of spec length.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,495 Senior Member
    Yeah, you're getting the QC results others have mentioned....
    Overkill is underrated.
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,445 Senior Member
    More like lack of QC.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,495 Senior Member
    Lack of QC gives its own results. 
    Overkill is underrated.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,156 Senior Member
    I haz a sad.  I want to like this round. 

    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,445 Senior Member
    I suspect the issues I am having are mostly due to the ammunition manufacture.   I can't say I didn't kinda expect the results.  I hope another manufacture releases ammunition soon so that I can compare.

    .356 sizing die is on the way.  Going to try and stuff some Speer 180gr .358 bullets through the die and see how they fit the chamber.  I'm also not opposed to getting a .358-350 reamer to open things up in the throat.  A .357 bullet doesn't even fit.
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,445 Senior Member
    Fired off a "product support" request to Winchester ammunition.  The 255 character limit really does make it hard to express the displeasure in a nice manner.  Hopefully they respond via email and I can let them know what I really think.

    I might order some brass to see about making my own loads.  I may need it for a .358-350 if I cant get the .223 basic brass to work well anyways.  Right now all that I have that will for sure work is some 9mm pistol bullets and some .356" 160gr coated cast lead bullets.  Dont think im going to be pushing either to 2100 FPS and having acceptable results on game.  

    The more I think about the ammunition issue, the more pissed I get.  It wouldnt have been an issue if the case had a rim or belt to headspace off of, but when it has to headspace off the case mouth and you have a 0.020" difference in lengths its not going to work well.

    Since the .458x1.8 is elsewhere for some reaction testing and I may or may not have it back in time to get set back up for the 325 FTX load I may be sitting in the woods with some 576gr cast leads loaded up to 1100 FPS this fall.  I dont think the .358x1.71 will be done in time and this .350 is really not looking to be a good option.  I will probably pull the remaining factory loads to at least have some bullets to use.
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    FWIW, isn't the .357 a marginal 50 yard gun?  If the .350 Legend makes more impact, using the same sized bullet, isn't that the improvement?  At 100 yards, what are the ballistics? A 145 gr bullet makes about 1200 FPE, just a hair over a 5.56, with a lot more bullet weight.  I have tried to make several rounds perform outside their envelope only to be disappointed.  I see claims of up to 300 yard performance, but I am not buying it,
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,445 Senior Member
    The 150gr grouped almost acceptable at 100 yards for the range I could expect for deer.  The problem will be finding a suitable .355 bullet to use.

    My little .358 will be running at near .35 Remington velocities using bullets designed for the .35 Remington.  I would expect decent performance out to 125-150 yards before velocity starts dropping too much for reliable expansion.  If I go off of Speers figures then the 180gr should be good for 200 yards and the 220gr should be good for 175 yards.  Hornady was less forthcoming with information and the best I can go by are vague numbers that leave me at velocities that put me about 150 yards out.

    I have Starline brass on the way to load up some test rounds with once I get my bullet sizing die in as well.  A .357 projectile will not fit the throat of my rifle, but a .356 seems to fit.
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