HR1

2

Replies

  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,738 Senior Member
    Knock out one tour in the military and get a free ride to almost any school of your choice.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,380 Senior Member
    The military is a wonderful option for the 20% that aren't turned down.

  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,050 Senior Member
    Trade schools are a good place for those that can actually work with their hands and dont want/cant have the "normal" college path.  Saddly we mostly get those that want everything handed to them and dont want to put in an honest days work.  A few good apprentices come through, but a whole lot of junk ones as well.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 8,827 Senior Member
    I look at alphas chart and ask, why?
    Why should any level of Government be responsible for you to go to college?
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,854 Senior Member
    Diver43 said:
    I look at alphas chart and ask, why?
    Why should any level of Government be responsible for you to go to college?
    It is a question you can ask. But the question was asked why is it so much more expensive and that's the answer. States used to heavily subsidize it, now they don't. Gen X and Boomers got a huge chunk of their bill paid by someone else, Millennials and the generation after them will pay almost full boat. It's understandable why they're upset. Especially when many of the jobs they will come out to work have had their wages stagnate for 2-3 decades. People have been asking why so many of them support Socialism. In many cases they just want as much socialism as their parents and grandparents enjoyed.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 3,935 Senior Member
    Thats kind of whats on my mind. There's valid reasons why people are disenchanted. Inferior content of character is not a satisfactory conclusion.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 20,101 Senior Member
    I say the same thing about college tuition as I do about medical costs: The system MUST be fixed before any kind of subsidy should be considered. Neither will be though.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 3,935 Senior Member
    Policy doesn't need to include subsidy. Incentives of varying types to various entities, as well as institutional restructuring could maybe help. Assuming promotion of the common welfare includes investment outside the boundries of instantaneous monetary profit.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,854 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    I say the same thing about college tuition as I do about medical costs: The system MUST be fixed before any kind of subsidy should be considered. Neither will be though.
    Actually the "costs" of higher education have not actually gone up that much above the rate of inflation. Adjusted for inflation costs at public university costs have only gone up around 0.5% per year (and a lot of that is probably related to rising health care costs as professor salaries have been flat relative to inflation). The issue is that the "price" paid by students has gone up about 200%. Almost all of that is shifting the burden of paying the costs away from the taxpayer and on to the student. In short, every true conservative on this board should be clapping wildly and applauding the fact that so much of the previous subsidy has been eliminated and that we now have significantly less socialism in our higher education system. Of course we also now have also created a system that further benefits those student's who's parents are wealthy, and we have decreased the level of opportunity for those who grew up poor and working class. 
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,050 Senior Member
    College isn't the only option. 

    Most of the people I have met that have high student debt,  but can't get a job,  either went for a degree in a saturated job market or refuse to take an entry level job and its pay for the field they have a degree in.

    Why should the tax payer be on the hook for others college education?  Make wiser choices and you will have a better career opportunity once you graduate.   Or do as many others do, and we always need more, look into a trade.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,229 Senior Member
    edited February 7 #42
    Actually the rapid rise in tuition has more to do with the death of socialism than an increase in it. 

    Hahahahahahaha!!! Thanks for the laugh. 



    I notice you cherry picked that graph to support your point, and started nearly 30 years after the price of tuition started growing. Here's some info going back to the 1970s to present that provides some more truthful info. Lots of graphs to look at, too.






    One more thing. The states are responsible for educating from K-12 and a lot of state decreases in funding are tied to the lottery money that replaced the state funding.

    Past 12th grade, states aren't responsible for educating you by supporting you monetarily. THAT would really be some serious socialism.




    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 8,827 Senior Member
    edited February 7 #43
    Diver43 said:
    I look at alphas chart and ask, why?
    Why should any level of Government be responsible for you to go to college?
    It is a question you can ask. But the question was asked why is it so much more expensive and that's the answer. States used to heavily subsidize it, now they don't. Gen X and Boomers got a huge chunk of their bill paid by someone else, Millennials and the generation after them will pay almost full boat. It's understandable why they're upset. Especially when many of the jobs they will come out to work have had their wages stagnate for 2-3 decades. People have been asking why so many of them support Socialism. In many cases they just want as much socialism as their parents and grandparents enjoyed.
    Actually your wrong.  The only help I received with college was TA while on active duty.  Do not be quick to scream GI Bill as I joined the service in 1977 and there was no GI Bill.  Was offered to buy into one, but with making a couple hundred dollars a month at the time could not afford it.  The True and Honest answer is that education became a business instead of a desire to teach others.  I knew being a Soldier would not make me rich and accepted it.  College professors went from making an honest wage to stuck up arrogant whyners.  The Boomers?  how many of them went to college right out of highschool compared to the young ones of today?  Unless the family could afford it, very few.
    Once again you show a graph that can be made to say whatever you want.  If college was as easy for the boomers as it is today, all would have received deferments from Viet Nam
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 20,101 Senior Member
    Actually the "costs" of higher education have not actually gone up that much above the rate of inflation. Adjusted for inflation costs at public university costs have only gone up around 0.5% per year (and a lot of that is probably related to rising health care costs as professor salaries have been flat relative to inflation). The issue is that the "price" paid by students has gone up about 200%. Almost all of that is shifting the burden of paying the costs away from the taxpayer and on to the student. In short, every true conservative on this board should be clapping wildly and applauding the fact that so much of the previous subsidy has been eliminated and that we now have significantly less socialism in our higher education system. Of course we also now have also created a system that further benefits those student's who's parents are wealthy, and we have decreased the level of opportunity for those who grew up poor and working class. 
    Which still doesn't change the FACT that higher education is inefficient and overpriced. The amount of overhead at a typical 4 year school is insane - couple that with a 10th century (or earlier) monastic model and no wonder its so overpriced. Academia isn't about training people for a career - it never has been. Its about self-perpetuating scholars - which made sense in the 10th century, not so much now.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,380 Senior Member
    Take what you want from this, but here in Michigan our public universities are a huge asset. The idea is supposed to be that the entire state benefits from the universities. MSU (Michigan State University) is a Land Grant University. If you look into those, they are responsible for huge gains in agriculture throughout our society. Illiterate, uneducated farmers were seeing their crop yields go way up because of the contributions of MSU and it was well worth their investment in tax dollars to support it.

    I can go on and on about Michigan State-- the good things that they have done and are doing and may go on and on later. My point is that these universities often serve more than the students and can often be a good investment for the taxpayers.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,738 Senior Member
    Diver43 said:
    I look at alphas chart and ask, why?
    Why should any level of Government be responsible for you to go to college?
    It is a question you can ask. But the question was asked why is it so much more expensive and that's the answer. States used to heavily subsidize it, now they don't. Gen X and Boomers got a huge chunk of their bill paid by someone else, Millennials and the generation after them will pay almost full boat. It's understandable why they're upset. Especially when many of the jobs they will come out to work have had their wages stagnate for 2-3 decades. People have been asking why so many of them support Socialism. In many cases they just want as much socialism as their parents and grandparents enjoyed.

    You really have lost your mind! I separated in June of 1980 (I'm guess that you weren't born yet) and moved to Madison Wisconsin. I got the same amount of money per month regardless of where I went to school and I took twelve credits at Madison Tech and worked 50 to 60 hours a week to make a living. I got 230.00 some bucks a month from the VA and it barely covered my books. my VA was the same regardless of where I went to school so I tried to get as many credits as I could as cheaply as I could and when I tried to transfer to the UW school of engineering, I needed a 3.6 cumulative and only had a 3.4. I ended up not getting my engineering degree as The VA didn't pay me enough to go to UWM. Nowadays the VA will pay for a free ride at most schools after one hitch AND they pay a housing allowance so a vet doesn't have to work while going to school. You can post all the **** graphs and charts that you want but it doesn't change my experiences.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,893 Senior Member
    I am supporting a college freshman right now.  In high school, she took AP classes that doubled as college credits. She received substantial scholarships. She's worked since 15, so she saved to pay for books and housing. I pay for tuition. She's on track for an associate's degree at a JC in three semesters. This will transfer to Boise State with a significant discount in tuition. 

    I planned and saved. She planned, saved, and busted her ass in high school. There are alternatives to loans if you plan and execute.  
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 4,893 Senior Member
    Coincidence: I'm sitting here doing taxes...Scholarships are declarable income according to the IRS. Damn. 
    The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me.

    Ayn Rand
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,765 Senior Member
    The only way I could have gone to college would have been to work full time at minimum wage and spread a degree program over about six to ten years, or work part time and take out a student loan that I would have paid back over about 10-20 years, based on where I went to college and how far I progressed in the degree system.

    Lacking any clue about what I was willing to dedicate that kind of commitment to, I elected instead for an apprenticeship (of sorts), which enabled me to double my minimum wage salary, within 5 years, and double that in another ten years. Then I was able to 'shop' my skill set on the open market and double that in another 15 years, through merit based wages, promotions, and bonuses. By the time I reached my mid-forties, I was earning about what a 30 year old civil engineer could make, five years out of college. By the time I was 62, I peaked out at about 75% of what my engineer bosses earned, with my wife earning enough to make up for the remaining 25%. I put every dollar I could spare from the money I earned, after my children 'flew the coop,' I was able to retire at 62 on a pension that I qualified for by staying put for 30 years.

    I paid for one third of one child's college education at a mid-level university. She paid for one third, through student loans, and one third through academic scholarships. She was 40 when she paid off the student loans, and never received a dime from the government, nor did I or my wife, until I signed up for Social Security and Medicare at age 65.

    It didn't feel like I was benefiting from any of the socialism that had been put into place during my lifetime. Do I feel guilty about the retirement benefits I get now? Hell, no - it nearly broke my back paying for other people's retirement, for twenty of the fifty years that the government took money from my earnings. I never expected social security or medicare to still be around when I became eligible for it, and I planned accordingly. So, I just figure I am recovering lost earnings, for as long as I can.

    I am aware that 'the rich' paid for most of those retiree benefits with their taxes, during all of those years, and that it did amount to wealth re-distribution, of a sort. But, the money I put in, personally, could have offset the benefits I draw now, had I been able to invest it and draw the same returns that I got on what I did invest.  .

    I'm quite sure that most 'uneducated' folks my age have similar stories, if they had the same good fortune that I did. I only hope that my grand kids have the same opportunity to succeed that I had, with or without college.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 3,935 Senior Member
    It seems like there's a disagreement about what the past and the present circumstances were and are. Some are saying the amount of help they recieved was small. Well others are saying hard work, and planning can over come any current obstacles. 

    I suspect that the details of individual achievement detailed here, well admirable may not be generally applicable? If not and the point of contention is that we have exalted ourselves through application of will and the failure of others is due to sloth and ineptitude, then a very difficult impass is what our discussions face.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,380 Senior Member
    Back in the day, K-12 was optional. What happened was that communities decided to socialize on that matter and all chip in to educate their children... This form of socialism has become accepted to the point where it isn't even considered socialism.  I am hoping all of you got something from your K-8 or K-12 education. I only made it to K-11, but got quite a bit from it.

    You may not agree with me, but I hope that you agree that most of the people in our society are much more useful to us as a whole than illiterates. Looking back in history, having a literate population gave us an edge in the world market and allowed us to succeed as a capitalist society. 

    And no...I am not suggesting that everyone gets free college tuition (actually-- with online classes, it should be affordable to everyone-- elites exist in academia too, and they need to be "adjusted".)

    We are in the information age. This should be a done deal. If I have to spend a couple bucks on taxes so some kid can get training in trades, or work toward his basket weaving, or an engineering degree... so be it. I think if we demand that our socialized resources get used better, we may get some results.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,854 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib said: and
    Diver43 said:
    I look at alphas chart and ask, why?
    Why should any level of Government be responsible for you to go to college?
    It is a question you can ask. But the question was asked why is it so much more expensive and that's the answer. States used to heavily subsidize it, now they don't. Gen X and Boomers got a huge chunk of their bill paid by someone else, Millennials and the generation after them will pay almost full boat. It's understandable why they're upset. Especially when many of the jobs they will come out to work have had their wages stagnate for 2-3 decades. People have been asking why so many of them support Socialism. In many cases they just want as much socialism as their parents and grandparents enjoyed.

    You really have lost your mind! I separated in June of 1980 (I'm guess that you weren't born yet) and moved to Madison Wisconsin. I got the same amount of money per month regardless of where I went to school and I took twelve credits at Madison Tech and worked 50 to 60 hours a week to make a living. I got 230.00 some bucks a month from the VA and it barely covered my books. my VA was the same regardless of where I went to school so I tried to get as many credits as I could as cheaply as I could and when I tried to transfer to the UW school of engineering, I needed a 3.6 cumulative and only had a 3.4. I ended up not getting my engineering degree as The VA didn't pay me enough to go to UWM. Nowadays the VA will pay for a free ride at most schools after one hitch AND they pay a housing allowance so a vet doesn't have to work while going to school. You can post all the **** graphs and charts that you want but it doesn't change my experiences.
    Ok, what does your VA/GI bill have to do with the cost of in state tuition for civillians? Yes if you serve in the armed forces the feds pay your way. No one is questioning that.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,738 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib said: and
    Diver43 said:
    I look at alphas chart and ask, why?
    Why should any level of Government be responsible for you to go to college?
    It is a question you can ask. But the question was asked why is it so much more expensive and that's the answer. States used to heavily subsidize it, now they don't. Gen X and Boomers got a huge chunk of their bill paid by someone else, Millennials and the generation after them will pay almost full boat. It's understandable why they're upset. Especially when many of the jobs they will come out to work have had their wages stagnate for 2-3 decades. People have been asking why so many of them support Socialism. In many cases they just want as much socialism as their parents and grandparents enjoyed.

    You really have lost your mind! I separated in June of 1980 (I'm guess that you weren't born yet) and moved to Madison Wisconsin. I got the same amount of money per month regardless of where I went to school and I took twelve credits at Madison Tech and worked 50 to 60 hours a week to make a living. I got 230.00 some bucks a month from the VA and it barely covered my books. my VA was the same regardless of where I went to school so I tried to get as many credits as I could as cheaply as I could and when I tried to transfer to the UW school of engineering, I needed a 3.6 cumulative and only had a 3.4. I ended up not getting my engineering degree as The VA didn't pay me enough to go to UWM. Nowadays the VA will pay for a free ride at most schools after one hitch AND they pay a housing allowance so a vet doesn't have to work while going to school. You can post all the **** graphs and charts that you want but it doesn't change my experiences.
    Ok, what does your VA/GI bill have to do with the cost of in state tuition for civillians? Yes if you serve in the armed forces the feds pay your way. No one is questioning that.
     More money is being diverted to social programs from tuition assistance programs. You can't have it all.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,765 Senior Member
    Some folks manage to overcome obstacles and prosper, and some try hard to do that and still fail. Some others never even try. The government is not good at distinguishing between those three categories. They are good at one-size-fits-all solutions, and determining how many voters are pleased with their 'solutions.' If the government cannot get a square peg to fit into a round hole, they will get a bigger hammer. And, they lie, or attempt to deceive the public that they are supposed to serve, about how the money will be spent, and try to shame those who demand that they do a better job.

    Taxpayers being outraged at the government because education costs too much does not mean that they are unwilling to subsidize either, if somebody can demonstrate some practicality in how that money is spent. Neither does it mean that they are uncharitable towards the disadvantaged, or unsympathetic for the kids who have never been taught to strive for their own assimilation into the mainstream. There are inequities throughout the system, and 'the elite' does not own them all - at least not the elites outside of government.

    Here's an idea: How about tasking the geniuses we elect to devise a plan to give an honest accounting of what the government actually spends and what results they get from each dollar? Yes, we supposedly already have that. But, like everything else, the 'books are cooked' by political apparatchik, and the taxpayers are not encouraged to look at anything that does not glorify the party that dominates any particular bureaucracy.

    If the average taxpayer has excellent search skills, he might be able to come up with obscure spreadsheet graphs and tables that show a trend, based on selected data that he can not possibly verify. He will run into 'algorithms' and 'carve-outs,' and a thousand excuses about why he cannot get a simple answer to a simple question.

    If I want an actual accounting (I do) of what the government did with the trillion dollar stimulus that Congress voted itself the power to spend (on credit, of course) ten years ago, and what the results of that were, ten years later, how can I find out? Why can I not make them account for every dollar of it?

    We have an Office of Management and Budget that nobody trusts because they have no genuine accountability to the voters. Their own accountability exists only in theory.They exist to serve the government, not the people. Everything is swallowed up in bureaucratic red tape and nobody wants it fixed - anybody who has the power to do anything about it is destroyed by lynch mobs, generated by those who don't want it fixed.

    As a result of the public being unable to understand where the money goes, the disadvantaged among us simply want their share of it, even though the majority of them don't even pay taxes. Those of us who do pay taxes want accountability, and that can only be forced to happen when all wage earners have 'skin in the game,' i.e. no carve-outs. Why would a person who has never paid taxes give a damn how much other people have to pay to help him/her realize their dream? How do I explain to my grand children that they have to succeed at twice the level I did, if they simply want to maintain the standard of living that their parents provided for them?

    This is not a question of morality. It is a question of what kind of economic system can actually survive, mathematically. Our system cannot even continue at the present level, much less doubling down on the taxpayer burden. We have been 'robbing Peter to pay Paul,' for decades, but it won't last forever.



  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 3,935 Senior Member
    That could be a very accurate synopses of the conflagration of failure.

    It is not wrong for the populace to try and demand better than what's presently available. Nor is there an absence of ideas for improvement among the demanders. Education is infrastructure. An attempt at some changes should be on the agenda of local and federal policy makers. If it is not, that in itself is very telling, and also opens the door wide for anything that looks good.

    If its governments job to provide an opportunity for the creation of opportunity, now would be a good time to start. Otherwise, the failure of European Socialism will have educated a populace superior to ours in short order. Then who will be the winners and losers after that???
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,765 Senior Member
    I agree with all of that, early.

    I just don't think that the politicians do. They tend to omit anything that is not easy to sell, and over-emphasize anything that does sell.

    I see many more campaigners and spin masters than statesmen. Even the 'good' ones (relatively speaking, of course) are afraid to tell the whole truth, because of the minefields that exist to shape public opinion. There really are some people that cannot be saved, and failure to even acknowledge that indicates a lack of responsibility. Little is gained by focusing on that negative aspect, but refusal to even admit it is an indicator of dishonesty, and dishonesty is the reason the simple solutions can't be implemented.

    The serious politicians are the ones who favor one small solution to one small problem, and then immediately move on to another. Anyone who demands sweeping, comprehensive legislation is suspect, because that is the black hole where all the money disappears and solutions are watered down to ineffectiveness.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 3,935 Senior Member
    It may be a problem best solved at the local and state levels.

    One of the events that turned me from the right side of the isle was a talk radio personality's spin on Scott Walker's policies in Wisconsin some years ago. The pundit characterized teachers and public servants as parasitic. It made me very mad. I didn't bring this up to corrupt the focus of the discussion, but to point out that the cancer you've eloquently spotlighted has also taken hold in earnest at the local and state levels as well as the federal.

    Still it seems the best place for any focused effort.

  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,591 Senior Member
    edited February 8 #58
    It seems like there's a disagreement about what the past and the present circumstances were and are. Some are saying the amount of help they recieved was small. Well others are saying hard work, and planning can over come any current obstacles. 

    I suspect that the details of individual achievement detailed here, well admirable may not be generally applicable? If not and the point of contention is that we have exalted ourselves through application of will and the failure of others is due to sloth and ineptitude, then a very difficult impass is what our discussions face."""

    ......

    It still works today and is just as applicable to the world around you. If you take the root word and apply yourself. To say it isnt is a cop out.

    I have a daughter that just finished in Dec and has been employed full time in a job in her field during the last 9 months of school and was hired because she interned there the summer prior. Her degree is in something that people want to pay for. She has a loan, about a F150's worth because she chose to live on her own and worked as a waitress to make ends meet and pay for her books. I put some away for her and what it grew to is what she gets.

    Son is in his 3rd year for mech eng. He has gotten more scholarships than his sister and will have a loan to pay that should be about 3/4 of hers. He also works and has worked and banked through multiple summers leading up to this. He has to live away this year and next so he banked, by working two jobs, enough money to pay his rent for two years and he works PT to cover books and food. His last credit load was 20.5 credits of eng and math so he is sure to get out in 3 more semesters. He is taking it easy with 17 this semester. I put some away for him and what it grew to is what he gets.

    I was a beneficiary of VEAP also. J Carters "screw you military" form of tuition assistance. I worked a FT job in the summer and PT while in school. My wife worked FT in the summer doing multiple PT jobs and PT while in school. She had a small loan, about 1/2 a mid sized car.

    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,591 Senior Member
    Diver43 said:
    I look at alphas chart and ask, why?
    Why should any level of Government be responsible for you to go to college?
    It is a question you can ask. But the question was asked why is it so much more expensive and that's the answer. States used to heavily subsidize it, now they don't. Gen X and Boomers got a huge chunk of their bill paid by someone else, Millennials and the generation after them will pay almost full boat. It's understandable why they're upset. Especially when many of the jobs they will come out to work have had their wages stagnate for 2-3 decades. People have been asking why so many of them support Socialism. In many cases they just want as much socialism as their parents and grandparents enjoyed.
    That isnt the answer, that is the consequence. Higher education has become a place where academics have become a self appointed Presidium anointing themselves with the power because they have decided what is best for you. Look at the amount of money colleges take in from investments WHILE they are raising tuition and crying poverty.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,591 Senior Member
    https://www.npr.org/2019/01/05/682286587/house-democrats-introduce-anti-corruption-bill-as-symbolic-first-act

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/11/30/18118158/house-democrats-anti-corruption-bill-hr-1-pelosi

    HR1 is a large bill submitted by Democrats to try to reform elections and reduce corruption. Here are a few articles that outline what the bill does. Explain to me the conservative arguments against this bill. Feel free to pick out specific parts and tell me why they are bad and why Republicans should be against such a bill?

    Also feel free to tell me what would needed to be added to achieve the same goals while being more bipartisan. Voter ID requirements of some kind seem to be one that I think could be included. What else?
    The most glaring example of why this is a full on corruption enabler is the entire voting "rights" section.
    Sec 1, assumes that you are a legal voter and you must opt OUT. It promotes same day, online, and early voting. ALL are great ways to pack the ballot box with false votes.
    Sec 2. Fed holiday for FED workers for election day.... any question who this benefits? I bet the military isnt in on this. Colleges as voter reg places.. how about the bar outside of the coal mine?
    Sec 3. prohibiting voter roll purging.....
    Sec 4. Does anyone think that the director of nat intel does NOT look at CREDIBLE threats?
    Sec 5. More poll workers isnt a bad idea, however a little planning and it is a moot point.



    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,854 Senior Member
    Diver43 said:
    Diver43 said:
    I look at alphas chart and ask, why?
    Why should any level of Government be responsible for you to go to college?
    It is a question you can ask. But the question was asked why is it so much more expensive and that's the answer. States used to heavily subsidize it, now they don't. Gen X and Boomers got a huge chunk of their bill paid by someone else, Millennials and the generation after them will pay almost full boat. It's understandable why they're upset. Especially when many of the jobs they will come out to work have had their wages stagnate for 2-3 decades. People have been asking why so many of them support Socialism. In many cases they just want as much socialism as their parents and grandparents enjoyed.
    Actually your wrong.  The only help I received with college was TA while on active duty.  Do not be quick to scream GI Bill as I joined the service in 1977 and there was no GI Bill.  Was offered to buy into one, but with making a couple hundred dollars a month at the time could not afford it.  The True and Honest answer is that education became a business instead of a desire to teach others.  I knew being a Soldier would not make me rich and accepted it.  College professors went from making an honest wage to stuck up arrogant whyners.  The Boomers?  how many of them went to college right out of highschool compared to the young ones of today?  Unless the family could afford it, very few.
    Once again you show a graph that can be made to say whatever you want.  If college was as easy for the boomers as it is today, all would have received deferments from Viet Nam
    Diver, the point I'm trying to make is that if you went to a state school or a community college (unless you paid out of state tuition or went to a private college) your education was heavily subsidized by the state where you went to school, as was mine. I started at Ohio state in 1999. According to the graph above I payed only about 30% of the true cost of my education. That about jives with what in-state tuition was back then relative to out of state tuition (about 1/3rd). Your kids, when they go to school (I can't remember if they're old enough yet?) will pay much closer to 100% than either of us did. Given that is the case we are faced with the question of what to do about it if anything?
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
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