Weaver, Isosceles, and getting away from "stances."

breamfisherbreamfisher Senior MemberPosts: 13,104 Senior Member
Kinda interesting take on "stances" and how they can be wrong.  I can't provide any personal information about gunfights, but one thing I've noticed in competitive shooters is that those who are usually the best are those who can get stable quickly and put accurate shots on target.  I asked a few shooters what sort of stance they preferred, as they seemed to vary it from time to time.  Basically I was told that as long as you had a good grip with your hand(s), the firearm pointed at the target, and were reasonably stable on your feet, what your elbows and arms were doing wasn't that important.

https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/shooting-stance-vs-shooting-technique/247506


https://www.tactical-life.com/lifestyle/tactics/pat-mcnamara-gunfight-mobility-tips/

Overkill is underrated.
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Replies

  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 3,604 Senior Member
    Stances do help for target shooting.

    Seems like the best thing for the average person in a violent conflict is to keep thinking. A little over a year ago, as a pedestrian I was confronted by a possible assailant that exited his vehicle to escalate a dispute after intentionally threatening me with his vehicle. I removed myself from the street, achieved higher ground, and placed his vehicle between us with two to three steps. What I did was deliberate and thought out in reaction. The same with my verbal responces. 
  • FFLshooterFFLshooter Member Posts: 937 Senior Member
    I don’t get it. I see some (not many) guys at the range that stand all serious, fire at their target and then look right and then left. That’s a bunch of commando ****. Shoot your gun the way that’s comfortable and accurate. There’s not always science to everything.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,059 Senior Member
    I concur Bream...in my world getting stable and getting rounds on target is far more important than assuming some predetermined stance...Hell...I have killed critters laying on my side holding my firearm sideways...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,104 Senior Member
    I don’t get it. I see some (not many) guys at the range that stand all serious, fire at their target and then look right and then left. That’s a bunch of commando ****. Shoot your gun the way that’s comfortable and accurate. There’s not always science to everything.
    Here's what the guy in the second article I linked, a former Delta Force member says about looking....


    Overkill is underrated.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,104 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    I concur Bream...in my world getting stable and getting rounds on target is far more important than assuming some predetermined stance...Hell...I have killed critters laying on my side holding my firearm sideways...
    Did you tumble? Roll? Spin?
    Overkill is underrated.
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 924 Senior Member
    Some of the shot positions on game I have taken would be highly frowned upon by target shooters.  For me in the situation I was in, it was the most stable positioning to make the shot, and it worked.

    I do have to laugh at the guys at the range that use the tacticool shooting positions.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,605 Senior Member
    I usually use some version of a Weaver stance at the range. Just feels natural to me. The most important thing that I've found *so far* in my firearms journey, is to keep my shoulders rolled back and down, and to relax. Just like Belly Dance. Shoulders up around my ears makes me wildly inaccurate.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • AxeAxe Member Posts: 375 Member
    Stances are all fine and good while at the range, and quite simple. Find the stance that works for you. In a actual gunfight, no stance in the world will be applicable while using cover or shooting on the move. There is no right or wrong stance as long as you win. 
  • wddodgewddodge Senior Member Posts: 1,002 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    I usually use some version of a Weaver stance at the range. Just feels natural to me. The most important thing that I've found *so far* in my firearms journey, is to keep my shoulders rolled back and down, and to relax. Just like Belly Dance. Shoulders up around my ears makes me wildly inaccurate.

    You've got me curious, Have you ever Belly Danced and shoot at the same time??

    Denny
    Participating in a gun buy back program because you think that criminals have too many guns is like having yourself castrated because you think your neighbors have too many kids.... Clint Eastwood
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 2,184 Senior Member
    I just do a TJ Hooker roll into my tacticool stance and then it's game-on mofo's.

     :D 
    Beware of false knowledge -- it is often more dangerous than ignorance.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,059 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    I concur Bream...in my world getting stable and getting rounds on target is far more important than assuming some predetermined stance...Hell...I have killed critters laying on my side holding my firearm sideways...
    Did you tumble? Roll? Spin?
    No acrobatics...I was sitting against a fence post and a deer came up behind me, so I just kinda rolled over on my side and shot the old hussy...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,605 Senior Member
    wddodge said:
    zorba said:
    I usually use some version of a Weaver stance at the range. Just feels natural to me. The most important thing that I've found *so far* in my firearms journey, is to keep my shoulders rolled back and down, and to relax. Just like Belly Dance. Shoulders up around my ears makes me wildly inaccurate.

    You've got me curious, Have you ever Belly Danced and shoot at the same time??

    Denny
    Not really, but I did find myself momentarily shimmying at the firing line when I was at the range the other day. I stopped before firing though - my isolations are good, but not *that* good.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,104 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    Jayhawker said:
    I concur Bream...in my world getting stable and getting rounds on target is far more important than assuming some predetermined stance...Hell...I have killed critters laying on my side holding my firearm sideways...
    Did you tumble? Roll? Spin?
    No acrobatics...I was sitting against a fence post and a deer came up behind me, so I just kinda rolled over on my side and shot the old hussy...
    Considering this is the PD forum, did you say, "She's coming right for me!" before you shot her?
    Overkill is underrated.
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 924 Senior Member
    "But I dont want to shoot the bunny"
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,059 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    Jayhawker said:
    I concur Bream...in my world getting stable and getting rounds on target is far more important than assuming some predetermined stance...Hell...I have killed critters laying on my side holding my firearm sideways...
    Did you tumble? Roll? Spin?
    No acrobatics...I was sitting against a fence post and a deer came up behind me, so I just kinda rolled over on my side and shot the old hussy...
    Considering this is the PD forum, did you say, "She's coming right for me!" before you shot her?
    She was drinking from a stream...but I'm certain she's the one who terrorized me earlier, figured I ought to put her down before she saw me...it was a clear-cut case of self defense...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,560 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    Jayhawker said:
    Jayhawker said:
    I concur Bream...in my world getting stable and getting rounds on target is far more important than assuming some predetermined stance...Hell...I have killed critters laying on my side holding my firearm sideways...
    Did you tumble? Roll? Spin?
    No acrobatics...I was sitting against a fence post and a deer came up behind me, so I just kinda rolled over on my side and shot the old hussy...
    Considering this is the PD forum, did you say, "She's coming right for me!" before you shot her?
    She was drinking from a stream...but I'm certain she's the one who terrorized me earlier, figured I ought to put her down before she saw me...it was a clear-cut case of self defense...

    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,375 Senior Member
    I have to qualify annually for my LEOSA card and have been doing so now for about 6 years. All the training was conducted by State Police officers and was pretty good training, but the actual range time was pretty short and limited for round count. None of the trainers interfered with stance or technique as long as the qualifying student was safe and appeared like they were going to make the minimum. 

    Last year, I had a private qual with a Missouri instructor who happened to be a retired U.S. Marshal. He was one of those who was a proponent of the snatch your gun back immediately following last shot and do an exaggerated left and right sweep. I didn't want to piss him off coz I needed his signature and he was giving me a private qualification as a favor to the head of the Missouri State U program manager. But I wondered, why he would ignore his 6 o'clock? 

    If you are going to engage in theater, do it all the way...


    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,042 Senior Member
    I don’t get it. I see some (not many) guys at the range that stand all serious, fire at their target and then look right and then left. That’s a bunch of commando ****. Shoot your gun the way that’s comfortable and accurate. There’s not always science to everything.
    I think what you have there is the product of an instructor who didn't properly convey the "WHY", or a student that just didn't properly absorb it, doesn't have the right mindset, wants to get his qual over with and leave, whatever...

    The idea behind it is that after you've dealt with the original problem, followed it to the ground with your sights still on it, MADE VERY SURE that it doesn't need any more attention, you break up what is likely to be a very severe and potentially fatal case of tunnel vision by ACTUALLY LOOKING around to see if there is anything else out there that may try to kill you.  Doing it right takes a little time. The range robot head shake that pays only the barest lip service to this drives me nuts.  Using the recoil of the last shot to begin the motion of putting the gun in the holster REALLY drives me nuts.

    As to "stances". . .Good article.  I'd add that you have to start learning the physics behind how the gun operates somewhere - up to and including the fact that your semi-auto may choke if you wrap yourself around it like a piece of cooked spaghetti.  Weaver, Isosceles, and your old school one-hand target stance are all good places from which to learn how to control the gun.  Ideally, whatever goofy position you end up in when forced into in a real world "thing" will contain some elements of that - - even if it's just from the elbow forward.  Better still if you can actually train from some of those goody positions - the ranges you have access to will likely be the determining factor of how far you can take that.

    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,620 Senior Member
    It’s a safe bet one or more of the participants in a gunfight will be moving during the festivities. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,620 Senior Member
    Pat McNamara is one of my favorite dudes to train with. 

    Mike Pannone and Jerry Barnhart as well. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,104 Senior Member
    More range theatrics from Pat McNamara


    Overkill is underrated.
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 2,184 Senior Member
    edited February 3 #23
    Zee said:
    It’s a safe bet one or more of the participants in a gunfight will be moving during the festivities. 
    If they weren't moving it would look more like this:


    Don't see that happening these days. :D
    Beware of false knowledge -- it is often more dangerous than ignorance.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,042 Senior Member
    Spk said:
    Zee said:
    It’s a safe bet one or more of the participants in a gunfight will be moving during the festivities. 
    If they weren't moving it would look more like this:


    Don't see that happening these days. :D
    The correct stance for that engagement is prone. . .with a rifle. . .from under the split-rail fence to the left of the church. . .while dressed like a carpet of moss. . .after telling the guy "YOU BE IN THE TOWN SQUARE AT NOON TOMORROW, AND WE'LL SETTLE THIS THING". . .you've been napping there since about 4am.

    That IS how you fight fair, right. . .? >:)
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 2,184 Senior Member
    You know what Clint Smith likes to point out.

    "If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!" 
    Beware of false knowledge -- it is often more dangerous than ignorance.
  • GilaGila Posts: 1,092 Senior Member
    The purpose of using a stance when practicing is to develop muscle memory, and it should be a good, stable stance.  Practice should also include shooting one handed and being able to do so with either hand.  There is much more to this (tactical stuff), but the bottom line is when the SHTF, what has been practiced is what is going to happen, and without good practice you will probably lose.  BTW, as mentioned above, the purpose of scanning is to break up tunnel vision, and there are right and wrong ways to do it.  FWIW, I use the isosceles...
    No good deed goes unpunished...
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 2,184 Senior Member
    edited March 1 #27
    Regarding the scan...

    From what I've seen on the range, most wannabes just do it to say, "Hey, look I'm being all tacticool and stuff. Don't wanna be messing with me bro! I'll mess you up!!!"

    It's pretty comical. If you've ever seen these clowns you'd laugh to 😂!!!!
    :D :D  :D
    Beware of false knowledge -- it is often more dangerous than ignorance.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,104 Senior Member
    Oh, I kinda like the scans.  Usually with a stone cold, hard expression. 

    Mas Ayoob wrote once that when he had students that did the scan, he'd wind up waving a handkerchief/bandanna in his hand, then ask either what color it was, or what shoulder.  Most couldn't answer.

    I admit I used to do the scan because that's what I was told to do.  Then I actually thought about what I was doing, and stopped.  I was asked by someone at an IDPA match once why I didn't scan, and my response was along the lines of, "I could.  But if I did it properly, I'd be kicked out and not allowed back because my firearm would be scanning along with my eyes, and the arc would be waaaaaaay more than the RSO would allow."

    I've had people say that I should keep scanning, because it's bad not to scan, and if you don't train yourself to scan, you won't when it matters.  On the other hand, if you train yourself to scan without the weapon, will you do that when it matters?  I mean it's what you've trained yourself to do...
    Overkill is underrated.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,653 Senior Member
    .
    Bigslug said:
    Spk said:
    Zee said:
    It’s a safe bet one or more of the participants in a gunfight will be moving during the festivities. 
    If they weren't moving it would look more like this:


    Don't see that happening these days. :D
    The correct stance for that engagement is prone. . .with a rifle. . .from under the split-rail fence to the left of the church. . .while dressed like a carpet of moss. . .after telling the guy "YOU BE IN THE TOWN SQUARE AT NOON TOMORROW, AND WE'LL SETTLE THIS THING". . .you've been napping there since about 4am.

    That IS how you fight fair, right. . .? >:)
    Right.

    I'm a big fan of Matt Dillon, from a philosophical and emotional standpoint. It doesn't piss me off when a cult hero gets everything wrong, and still wins - after all, he never really existed, and it is good theater. If you ever watch any more modern video or film, you would believe that the object is to get rid of all your 'bullets' as fast as you can, before somebody gets hurt.

    But, no amount of brilliant acting and clever script writing will ever convince me that anybody wants to fight anybody else who has equal talents to their own. It's just a foolish premise - people just don't do that - neither do animals, if they can avoid it.

    As for all of the theatrics involved in the 'tactical' mind-set, that is for professionals to evaluate, who know what can happen in a gun fight, and believe that they are likely to be engaged in it, at some point.

    For the rest of us, getting the first shot on target, using any method that helps us accomplish that, is still probably the best thing to practice and attempt to maintain.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,855 Senior Member
    edited March 1 #30
    Jayhawker said:
    Jayhawker said:
    I concur Bream...in my world getting stable and getting rounds on target is far more important than assuming some predetermined stance...Hell...I have killed critters laying on my side holding my firearm sideways...
    Did you tumble? Roll? Spin?
    No acrobatics...I was sitting against a fence post and a deer came up behind me, so I just kinda rolled over on my side and shot the old hussy...
    Aw come on an' fess up. We know you jus'
    like to shoot Gansta Style!

    Seriously, I've caught myself in some strange positions making a shot on a deer. I think in the heat of the moment we do what we have to automatically to get 'er done. I've shot deer on my knees.

    Also, I've caught myself in a position with no rest and reverted to my training in position shooting, like standing, where you rest your elbow between your belly and chest on the side against the rib bones and the heal of your hand under the forearm of your rifle. I've made a couple shots on game doing that and it works pretty well. Also, when caught standing your breathing becomes even more important. I try to really emphasize shooting between breaths and when standing you don't have as long between breaths as sitting on a chair. But if you practice that it almost happens automatically.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,620 Senior Member
    edited March 1 #31
    Oh, I kinda like the scans.  Usually with a stone cold, hard expression. 

    Mas Ayoob wrote once that when he had students that did the scan, he'd wind up waving a handkerchief/bandanna in his hand, then ask either what color it was, or what shoulder.  Most couldn't answer.

    I admit I used to do the scan because that's what I was told to do.  Then I actually thought about what I was doing, and stopped.  I was asked by someone at an IDPA match once why I didn't scan, and my response was along the lines of, "I could.  But if I did it properly, I'd be kicked out and not allowed back because my firearm would be scanning along with my eyes, and the arc would be waaaaaaay more than the RSO would allow."

    I've had people say that I should keep scanning, because it's bad not to scan, and if you don't train yourself to scan, you won't when it matters.  On the other hand, if you train yourself to scan without the weapon, will you do that when it matters?  I mean it's what you've trained yourself to do...
    I do a modified version of a “scan”. It is not “jerky” but deliberate. I do not believe that my gun HAS to go wherever my eyes go. In a perfect world and many situations, it can/will. But, just because I can’t point a gun at the dude/partner/friend standing next to me doesn’t mean I can’t LOOK that way. 

    A post shooting scan serves to answer the following questions for me. 

    Who - is around me and are they friend/foe?

    What - is around me and can it be used to my benefit or avoided for detriment? What is my next course of action?

    When - can I move to Who/What I’ve already seen?  If I have a partner/friend behind me or to my side, I don’t want to move into their field of fire in case they are still actively engaging or covering down on the existing threat or potential secondary. 

    Where - is my nearest cover or avenue of escape?  Where am I in the “battlefield”. 

    Why - am I still standing here and is it safe to move?

    How - do I get the Hell off this “X”?

    None of this and whatever else needs to be answered can be accomplished with a haphazard left/right head toss. My world is 360 degrees and it’s full of information that needs to be processed. Quickly.......but efficiently. 

    There is a reason to scan. Unfortunately, it is oft reduced to a theatrical endeavor sans function. 

    Just because some idiots do it wrong and without meaning........doesn’t mean the concept is without purpose. 

    With anything I do, I try to ask myself, “Why the Hell am I doing this and does it serve a functional purpose?”

    Concepts and methodology can be sound but the application disastrous. If your gonna do it.......do it right. 

    It’s what I do. Nobody else has to follow my madness. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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