Weaver, Isosceles, and getting away from "stances."

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Replies

  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,803 Senior Member
    snake284 said:
    Jayhawker said:
    Jayhawker said:
    I concur Bream...in my world getting stable and getting rounds on target is far more important than assuming some predetermined stance...Hell...I have killed critters laying on my side holding my firearm sideways...
    Did you tumble? Roll? Spin?
    No acrobatics...I was sitting against a fence post and a deer came up behind me, so I just kinda rolled over on my side and shot the old hussy...
    Aw come on an' fess up. We know you jus'
    like to shoot Gansta Style!

    Seriously, I've caught myself in some strange positions making a shot on a deer. I think in the heat of the moment we do what we have to automatically to get 'er done. I've shot deer on my knees.

    Also, I've caught myself in a position with no rest and reverted to my training in position shooting, like standing, where you rest your elbow between your belly and chest on your side against the rib bones and the heal of your hand under the forearm of your rifle. I've made a couple shots on game doing that and it works pretty well. Also, when caught standing your breathing becomes even more important. I try to really emphasize shooting between breaths and when standing you don't have as long between breaths as sitting on a chair. But if you practice that it almost happens automatically.
    I also do the sitting and prone. However, prone can present a problem due to you being very low to the ground and grass and other vegetation gets in the way of your sight line. I've never done it but that's where kneeling position would come in handy.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,803 Senior Member
    Stances do help for target shooting.

    Seems like the best thing for the average person in a violent conflict is to keep thinking. A little over a year ago, as a pedestrian I was confronted by a possible assailant that exited his vehicle to escalate a dispute after intentionally threatening me with his vehicle. I removed myself from the street, achieved higher ground, and placed his vehicle between us with two to three steps. What I did was deliberate and thought out in reaction. The same with my verbal responces. 
    That's where training and practice come in. Thinking under stress requires a discipline that some of us don't have naturally. Some do some don't or maybe those that do realized this and trained themselves. I know I didn't. If you train repetitiously it will become automatic.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 3,255 Senior Member
    Im currently reading about the June 1975 shootout on the Indian Reservation in South Dakota. The first hand accounts indicate redundant struggles to ascertain what direction incoming fire was coming from. This corresponds with what was once related to me by a combat Veteran.

    I always imagined immediate recodnition of a threat and that threats position. Especially as a civilian in a civilian environment. 

    Makes me wonder if escape, evasion and cover shouldn't be the primary focus of reaction as opposed to the immediate application of force. The shootout Im reading about indicates that survival rewarded many who instinctually reacted in such a manor.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,051 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    I do a modified version of a “scan”. It is not “jerky” but deliberate. I do not believe that my gun HAS to go wherever my eyes go. In a perfect world and many situations, it can/will. But, just because I can’t point a gun at the dude/partner/friend standing next to me doesn’t mean I can’t LOOK that way. 

    A post shooting scan serves to answer the following questions for me. 

    Who - is around me and are they friend/foe?

    What - is around me and can it be used to my benefit or avoided for detriment? What is my next course of action?

    When - can I move to Who/What I’ve already seen?  If I have a partner/friend behind me or to my side, I don’t want to move into their field of fire in case they are still actively engaging or covering down on the existing threat or potential secondary. 

    Where - is my nearest cover or avenue of escape?  Where am I in the “battlefield”. 

    Why - am I still standing here and is it safe to move?

    How - do I get the Hell off this “X”?

    None of this and whatever else needs to be answered can be accomplished with a haphazard left/right head toss. My world is 360 degrees and it’s full of information that needs to be processed. Quickly.......but efficiently. 

    There is a reason to scan. Unfortunately, it is oft reduced to a theatrical endeavor sans function. 

    Just because some idiots do it wrong and without meaning........doesn’t mean the concept is without purpose. 

    With anything I do, I try to ask myself, “Why the Hell am I doing this and does it serve a functional purpose?”

    Concepts and methodology can be sound but the application disastrous. If your gonna do it.......do it right. 

    It’s what I do. Nobody else has to follow my madness. 
    As usual, you make a lot of good points.  I will maintain that for most of the folks I've seen who do a scan, it's range theatrics.  I say this based on the fact that if you ask some of them what they saw, they can't answer, and also that if you pay attention, their whole demeanor changes while scanning.  They try to get a "hardcore" look.  That to me is range theatrics.  And when they apply it to shooting at the square range, it reinforces my ideas.  Not saying the idea is worthless, just that how most folks I've seen doing it.... is worthless. 

    I think part of it is the term "scan."  Folks seem to scan the world like they do a news article.  Maybe a good look is better?  If you give it a good, but quick look, that makes more sense.  That's actually something I do more of when I do my dry fire drills (because I can do more with firearm movement than I can at the range I go to.)  I like McNamara's scan and assess.  Like you said, if you're gonna do it, do it right.  The reality is that for many, the ability to practice correctly is very limited. 

    On the other hand I watched someone shoot an IDPA match and lower their firearm after every shot to assess where each bullet hit.  Probably like they did at the square range.  They also were the argument for the original point of the thread: when they got to shoot or moved from point to point, they had to move just so, feet planted just right, and their motions were very rigid.  Like you could hear them counting out every single point of their draw.  And while some were obviously new, others weren't.  So while they might have been told some stuff, I'm not sure if they were trained or educated.

    Regarding "getting off the X" I'm reminded of a story of a tactical match where the scenario was you had a suspected burglar in your garage.  You need to go and deal with the situation.  All contestants but one went and cleared the garage.  The winner of the stage ran up to the door with his handgun out, shut the door, simulated locking it, then retreated to cover where he could monitor the situation and pulled out his cell phone.  He handled the problem and completed the stage quicker than anyone else.  The other folks thought he cheated because he didn't use a firearm. 

    Getting back to the original point, I learned that just getting stable at the moment of the shot, and getting a good grip was more important than having the proper stance several years ago, back when I was on crutches post-Achilles surgery.  It's hard to get the right stance when you are on crutches and wearing an orthopedic boot. 


    Overkill is underrated.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,564 Senior Member
    I like to set up a lot of drills that require moving and standing on odd objects. 

    Like walking along a railroad tie while shooting, standing one or two footed on a cinder block, balancing on a small tire, etc. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 1,955 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    I do a modified version of a “scan”. It is not “jerky” but deliberate.
    ...

    None of this and whatever else needs to be answered can be accomplished with a haphazard left/right head toss. My world is 360 degrees and it’s full of information that needs to be processed. Quickly.......but efficiently

    There is a reason to scan. Unfortunately, it is oft reduced to a theatrical endeavor sans function. 

    Just because some idiots do it wrong and without meaning........doesn’t mean the concept is without purpose. 

    With anything I do, I try to ask myself, “Why the Hell am I doing this and does it serve a functional purpose?”

    Concepts and methodology can be sound but the application disastrous. If your gonna do it.......do it right. 

    It’s what I do. Nobody else has to follow my madness. 
    I agree with everything you've posted.


    But I stand firm...........






    If you've seen the range theatrics I have -- You'd laugh your ass off also!!!!! :D
    Beware of false knowledge -- it is often more dangerous than ignorance.
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 1,955 Senior Member
    As for stances -- Isosceles or Weaver. I've always considered them to be baseline starting positions. You can't really know where you'll end up.

    "Be like water..."
    Beware of false knowledge -- it is often more dangerous than ignorance.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,261 Senior Member

    I've never really understood the rationale about the Weaver stance- - - -all the "bent elbows- - - -push/pull" stuff.  At least an isosceles hold sort of simulates a rifle stock- - - -locked wrist and elbow,  pull back for tension, etc.  which sort of makes sense for target shooting.  When the SHTF, rational thinking gets splattered along with the fertilizer, but I suppose at least a little of the practice at the range might get ingrained in "muscle memory". 

    It's sort of like all the training we did to get a bunch of nuke-loaded B-58's off the ground at Little Rock in under 14 minutes because that's all the time we would have before the missiles started dropping into our laps.  We fervently hoped we'd never have to actually make that happen, but we practiced constantly to be sure we could do it flawlessly if a worst-case scenario ever did come about.  Training for deadly self-defense needs to be approached with the same dedication.

     

    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • GilaGila Posts: 987 Senior Member
    Teach said:

    I've never really understood the rationale about the Weaver stance- - - -all the "bent elbows- - - -push/pull" stuff.  At least an isosceles hold sort of simulates a rifle stock- - - -locked wrist and elbow,  pull back for tension, etc.  which sort of makes sense for target shooting.  When the SHTF, rational thinking gets splattered along with the fertilizer, but I suppose at least a little of the practice at the range might get ingrained in "muscle memory". 

    It's sort of like all the training we did to get a bunch of nuke-loaded B-58's off the ground at Little Rock in under 14 minutes because that's all the time we would have before the missiles started dropping into our laps.  We fervently hoped we'd never have to actually make that happen, but we practiced constantly to be sure we could do it flawlessly if a worst-case scenario ever did come about.  Training for deadly self-defense needs to be approached with the same dedication.

     

    If one shoots with a limp wrist, it can cause a semi-auto to jam, and that is part of the reason for the isosceles stance.
    No good deed goes unpunished...
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,102 Senior Member
    All the questions around stances answer themselves with one well taught fighting pistol course. And Pat Mac is the man. 
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
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