Warning about DPMS AR's

Make_My_Day

Some of you may know that in the last two S.E. Shoots I have had troubles with my DPMS AR-15. Long story short, 3 years ago I shot up about 15-20 magazines using a bump stock. The following year with a cleaned AR I had firing problems again.....bolt would hang up either ejecting or loading a round. Last year I made sure the rifle was extra-clean, thinking cleanliness might be a problem........It wasn't. A few people offered suggestions that the issue was possibly the rear of the barrel, and either get a new upper or replace the barrel. I hadn't done anything about it until about a week ago, when I dismantled the AR and cleaned the gas tube, the bolt carrier group, the barrel, and everything else that one would normally clean. While the AR was dismantled I did a close inspection with a bore scope and a magnifying glass. I couldn't find anything that was visibly worn or broken.

With the shoot coming up in a few months I didn't want to waste any time experimenting with barrel changes, so I took it to a local gun store that had a gunsmith section and gave it to them to figure out what was wrong. It only took a little over a week for them to figure it out. The DPMS AR has a very good quality upper and lower, but there are Chinese-made parts in it that are crap....mainly springs, pins and and gas-tube rings. The total cost for the repair was only $76.00 plus tax. Lessons learned is that when I don't know what I'm doing, take it to a gunsmith and secondly, if I buy any more DPMS rifles, there will be change-outs of Chinese-made parts before I even use it.

knitepoet

Any clue as to how your GS knows they use Chinese parts?

Just curious, since none of the pins, springs or gas rings I've ever installed were marked as to where they were made.

Now when I've bought replacements, the packaging might say, but I've never seen any of those small parts marked

Edited to add: Just called their customer service number, and according to the rep I spoke with. They make most of their small parts, and the ones they don't are mostly made in the USA with the exception of a few from Canada.

Jayhawker

There are tons of AR parts out there that are made in China as well as other off shore locations.
The question remains whether DPMS (owned by Remington) uses those parts in production

I am wondering if the use of a bump stock may have contributed to your issues...faux FA with a semi-auto BCG may have caused some issues

Make_My_Day

This is what I was told, and I don't have any idea how they knew. I do know that the shop I went to has been around for a very long time, and it is the biggest one in my county that I know of, so perhaps from experience or that they know industry reps or something. I bought the rifle new in 2010, so maybe it had Chinese parts in it in those days, but not anymore. Whatever the issue of quality of parts in question is, I never changed anything in the rifle, other than a new trigger group a few years ago. Obviously using a bump stock prematurely wore some of the parts severely, no matter where they came from. What I find remarkable about this revelation is that the company would even bother to use Chinese parts of such little monetary value that they would risk having reliability problems just to save a few dollars on springs, pins and rings.

Make_My_Day

Jayhawker said:

I am wondering if the use of a bump stock may have contributed to your issues...faux FA with a semi-auto BCG may have caused some issues

I told them when I brought the rifle in that I had been using a bump-stock on it. They could have easily blamed the malfunction on that, instead of telling me it was the fault of using Chinese parts in the manufacturing process, so I'm confused.

Jayhawker

Not saying this is true in your case, but some of the biggest B.S. stories I've ever heard came from well established gunshops...

Whatever the case a $70.00 fix ain't the end .of the world...glad it worked out for you

Make_My_Day

Jayhawker said:

Not saying this is true in your case, but some of the biggest B.S. stories I've ever heard came from well established gunshops...

Whatever the case a $70.00 fix ain't the end .of the world...glad it worked out for you

I'm sure you're right...BS can come from anywhere. It just doesn't make sense that they would make it up, but I suppose it is possible......thanks, I just hope it works correctly now.

Diver43

I remember how frustrated you were. I was with mine the year before.
I know tennmike had issues with PSA lower parts.

Jay

I'm more curious to know exactly which "springs and pins" they replaced to fix the issue.  I can see the gas rings making a difference, if they were worn out by the high volume of fire via the bump stock.  Gas rings are easy to check and replace and cheap.  Can't quite get my head around $70 worth of replaced pins, springs and gas rings in an AR upper.  Of course, they're going to charge a fee for the labor, which they probably charged for an hour and the couple of dollars worth of parts out of their parts bin didn't really impact the total.  There's only a few springs in an upper and really only two of them will affect function, and that's the ejector spring and extractor spring and their corresponding pins.  Maybe that's what they were talking about...

Accipiter

Jayhawker said:

Not saying this is true in your case, but some of the biggest B.S. stories I've ever heard came from well established gunshops...

Whatever the case a $70.00 fix ain't the end .of the world...glad it worked out for you

Jayhawker said:

Not saying this is true in your case, but some of the biggest B.S. stories I've ever heard came from well established gunshops...

Whatever the case a $70.00 fix ain't the end .of the world...glad it worked out for you

This quote is very weird.

anyway I have to agree with the above statement.

I would also have to say that your off the shelf AR isn’t really meant to be a full auto platform.  This is probably excessive wear due to the abuse of the bump stock.  No big deal just be prepared to do more maintenance when using the bump stock.  Probably not a DPMS deficiency.

Make_My_Day

Jay said:

I'm more curious to know exactly which "springs and pins" they replaced to fix the issue.  I can see the gas rings making a difference, if they were worn out by the high volume of fire via the bump stock.  Gas rings are easy to check and replace and cheap.  Can't quite get my head around $70 worth of replaced pins, springs and gas rings in an AR upper.  Of course, they're going to charge a fee for the labor, which they probably charged for an hour and the couple of dollars worth of parts out of their parts bin didn't really impact the total.  There's only a few springs in an upper and really only two of them will affect function, and that's the ejector spring and extractor spring and their corresponding pins.  Maybe that's what they were talking about...

Plus the gas rings......I brought them the rifle in disassembled condition. They had to reassemble to test it, and take it down to replace parts. There was a list of parts they replaced, but did not give me the list, and they did say it was only a few dollars worth. I imagine most of the cost was labor, and I have no problem with that. At least it cost less than I was anticipating when I thought the barrel or complete upper needed to be replaced.

Make_My_Day

Accipiter said:

Jayhawker said:

Not saying this is true in your case, but some of the biggest B.S. stories I've ever heard came from well established gunshops...

Whatever the case a $70.00 fix ain't the end .of the world...glad it worked out for you

This quote is very weird.

anyway I have to agree with the above statement.

I would also have to say that your off the shelf AR isn’t really meant to be a full auto platform.  This is probably excessive wear due to the abuse of the bump stock.  No big deal just be prepared to do more maintenance when using the bump stock.  Probably not a DPMS deficiency.

Yes, that is most likely the reason for the failure. The bump stock has been made illegal in Florida and also by the BATFE, so I don't imagine I will be using it any more.

1965Jeff

My first AR was a DPMS, and it has consumed approximately three pounds of various powders and still shoots very well . My only complaint was the chamber was much more finicky than the ranch rifle which will eat through anything.

Jay

I've no problem with a business making money.  And yes, $70 is perfectly fair for a 1 hour labor job. It's fixed, customer is happy, that's all that matters.

Guess I just have a little different view on AR work. 

FWIW, a brand new full auto BCG can be bought at PSA right now for $49.99.

Make_My_Day

cpj said:

$70 is more than fair. Say they had $10 worth of parts. 60 per hour labor, and Bobs your uncle. More than a good deal. And of course the beating from the bump stock is what destroyed it. Pay to play and all that. 
As to Chinese parts, I call bull crap and seriously ain’t buying it. I don’t care what they said. Some gun stores like to embellish things, or perpetuate rumors when it comes to “lesser” brands. Yes, DPMS is considered a lesser brand by the queer for gear crowd. If it’s not the most expensive high speed low drag operator stuff, it’s junk. Or Chinese. 
Its similar to the notion of “Remington/Marlin/Henry/Savage gives Walmart all their factory second guns, only the top notch ones go to gun shops. “
Amyway, glad it’s running again. 

I totally agree. I brought the AR in there on the assumption that it was the bumpfire stock that did the machinery in. I actually was shocked when they said "chinese parts" but assumed at the time they knew what they're talking about. They might have wanted to convince me they had the skinny on everything guns, but I didn't need that kind of BS to induce me to come back for future work. I thought their work was fast and efficient and was quite satisfied to have gotten it back in less than 2 weeks. My reason for posting this was that I believed what they said and wanted to let others here know what I had found out. I always thought my DPMS product was decent quality. Maybe they were looking to sell me something more expensive down the road if I came to them looking.

zorba

I remember your having problems with that gun - hopefully this year you won't!

tennmike

Diver43 said:

I remember how frustrated you were. I was with mine the year before.
I know tennmike had issues with PSA lower parts.

The problems I noted off the bat were undersized trigger and hammer pins, and the big glaring error was the hammer spring. It was made from undersized wire and was weak as a kitten. Probably would have worked, but I don't like that 'probably' part when a rifle is going to be used as both range toy and possible HD use.

FFLshooter

I’ve seen a few odd things in customers AR platforms. One guy brought his in saying it wouldn’t cycle at all. Took me very little time to notice the gas tube wasn’t protruding into the upper when the BCG was removed. The roll pin holding the tube into the gas block had worked it’s way out and the gas tube got blown forward and hidden in the hand guard. Also had to drill out quite a few gas ports in barrels to a larger size for folks that are assembling their own from unknown parts suppliers (unknown to me). I actually have a chart hanging by my mill that shows proper gas port size per specifics like pistol/rifle/carbine/subsonic,etc... I’m curious to know exactly what they found and replaced.

shotgunshooter3

That's interesting to hear. Although I love my BCM and DD guns, and believe them to be worth the money to a certain demographic for long term and borderline abuse reasons, I've always considered DPMS to be a reliable mid-level maker. Certainly a step or three above Anderson or PSA. As a matter of fact, my DD/Geissele upper (faux URG-I) sits atop a DPMS lower (granted, with RRA guts).

Either way, I'm glad you got it sorted out.

Jay

Unless things have changed recently, DPMS is decent quality. Not top shelf, but decent. 

Theres a checklist of basic things to go over when an AR is functioning and suddenly stops functioning. If ammo is the same, possibly rule that out as long as we’re sure it’s not a bad lot. After cleaning and lube, I always check the magazine. Put a new magazine in it and, if it functions, throw the old one in the trash. If it’s not that, go from there. Gas rings are easy to check. Clean BCG and assemble, fully pull the bolt out of the carrier as far as it will go and stand it up bolt side down on the bench. If the carrier drops under its own weight, the rings are bad. If it stays standing fully extended, the rings are fine. Check the carrier key to make sure it’s tight and the carrier key screws haven’t broken. Ive seen broken carrier key screws that you wouldn’t notice right off without checking. When they’re staked, they can break off at the carrier, but the screw head stay in the key. Use a hex bit and try to tighten them. If one turns and keeps turning, it’s broken. And that’s enough to leak gas and cause the gun to short stroke. After that, make sure the ejector plunger will fully depress. If not, remove, clean and reinstall. If it’s extracting, just make sure the extractor isn’t cruded up. 

If the gun gun is functioning fine and starts having problems, it’s not a gas port issue, other than possible clogging or the issue FFL mentioned. DONT use foaming bore cleaner in an AR. EVER!  

There are are times when an AR will drive you nuts. And it’s usually something easy, when you’re looking for something difficult. One of the biggest culprits is bad magazines. A lot of folks just can’t see them as finite life span objects and can’t bring themselves to throw old, worn out magazines in the trash. 

Big Chief

I wonder if "fast triggers" or whatever they are called have similar effects on parts not up to par. I know they cost $400 and up. I saw someone firing one and it looked and sounded almost like full-auto.

My Ruger ARs are not full auto bolts. I guess so they can't be converted. What is the benefit of buying a full-auto bolt?

Zombie attack or end of days? You convert one you are going to jail.

Big Chief

I do know one thing from the Army. Using a blank adapter and firing blanks will crud up the bolt like you ain't never seen.

Course in the 70s we used to remove the blank adapters and pop each other in the ass fer fun.......from a distance as to not hurt each other but 'Sting' your target a bit. The good ole days.......................course it made it a single shot. 

Big Chief

Noel, one purchase I made well worth the money was a bolt cleaning multi-tool, a 'wheel' like tool with lots of specialized gadgets on it to get into the nooks and crannies. Not a must have, but nice to have all that stuff on one tool when you are cleaning your AR bolt.

Like this one.

https://www.amazon.com/Carbon-Boss-223-Removal-Multitool/dp/B01NGWHGKF?SubscriptionId=AKIAJ2F6RDUSIYCWQMFQ&tag=sa-sym-new-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B01NGWHGKF

Make_My_Day

FFLshooter said:

......... I’m curious to know exactly what they found and replaced.

I don't have the list, but mainly it was pins, gas rings from the BCG and some springs.

Make_My_Day

Jay said:

Unless things have changed recently, DPMS is decent quality. Not top shelf, but decent.
.............................
There are are times when an AR will drive you nuts. And it’s usually something easy, when you’re looking for something difficult. One of the biggest culprits is bad magazines. A lot of folks just can’t see them as finite life span objects and can’t bring themselves to throw old, worn out magazines in the trash. 

The rifle functioned perfectly before using the bumpstock on it. I didn't even know the problem existed until the next shoot. I have the plastic magazines and they are not very old and have not been used all that much. I did try changing magazines once I noticed the problem. The problem continued no matter what mag I put in there.

Make_My_Day

Big Chief said:

I wonder if "fast triggers" or whatever they are called have similar effects on parts not up to par. I know they cost $400 and up. I saw someone firing one and it looked and sounded almost like full-auto.

...........................

I installed an RRA trigger group in the AR before I tried the bumpstock, but I doubt that was an issue.

Make_My_Day

Big Chief said:

Noel, one purchase I made well worth the money was a bolt cleaning multi-tool, a 'wheel' like tool with lots of specialized gadgets on it to get into the nooks and crannies. Not a must have, but nice to have all that stuff on one tool when you are cleaning your AR bolt.

Like this one.

https://www.amazon.com/Carbon-Boss-223-Removal-Multitool/dp/B01NGWHGKF?SubscriptionId=AKIAJ2F6RDUSIYCWQMFQ&tag=sa-sym-new-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B01NGWHGKF

That looks like a worthwhile investment. Going to get one....thanks.

BigDanS

Kids that hot rod their Honda Civic’s engines quickly find out their transmissions were not made to handle that much stress.

Your DPMS AR 15 is not a fully automatic gun and wasn’t built to be one.  If you put 30 magazines through  it, that is 900 rounds and I imagine a lot of heat, gas, fouling, and stress. Even full auto guns need maintenance, so I believe your issues might be typical of bump stock fired mass produced guns.

If you race a motor, be prepared to repair it afterward.  If you shoot a 1000 rounds nearly full auto, expect your gun to need more maintenance.

D

Jay

Make_My_Day said:

Jay said:

Unless things have changed recently, DPMS is decent quality. Not top shelf, but decent.
.............................
There are are times when an AR will drive you nuts. And it’s usually something easy, when you’re looking for something difficult. One of the biggest culprits is bad magazines. A lot of folks just can’t see them as finite life span objects and can’t bring themselves to throw old, worn out magazines in the trash. 

The rifle functioned perfectly before using the bumpstock on it. I didn't even know the problem existed until the next shoot. I have the plastic magazines and they are not very old and have not been used all that much. I did try changing magazines once I noticed the problem. The problem continued no matter what mag I put in there.

I figured that was the case.  That you had tried that.  Didn't mean for that part of my post to be aimed at you.  Just an observation in general.  I've seen so many guys who just can't bring themselves to throw an old magazine away.  And there's always that one guy who will dig a magazine out of the trash if he sees one in there.  Magazines don't last forever.  They are expendable.

Jayhawker

Big Chief said:

My Ruger ARs are not full auto bolts. I guess so they can't be converted. What is the benefit of buying a full-auto bolt?

As you can see in the picture, a FA BCG has more mass at the rear. My AR pistol seems to function more reliably with the heavier BCG installed.

bisley

I've got two of them, but I've never even done a magazine dump, much less use a bump stock, so I likely never have given either hard enough use to reveal that sort of problem. All that I can say is that mine have functioned well and accurately, for me.