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New Green Deal

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  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,749 Senior Member
    I kind of have a perception that FDR gets both credit and blame unearned.

    In the books I read, I got an impression of an administration groping in the dark, disparate to find public relief from overwhelming circumstance. The global depression was pandemic.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,667 Senior Member
    tennmike said:
    zorba said:
    Mike - add to that the oh-so-often touted Sweden that few, if any, Socialist desirers in this country have ever visited. Oh, Greece isn't doing so well either.
    They're on 'socialism lite' so far.
    And its a pretty dismal situation - we have relatives there.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,398 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    tennmike said:
    zorba said:
    Mike - add to that the oh-so-often touted Sweden that few, if any, Socialist desirers in this country have ever visited. Oh, Greece isn't doing so well either.
    They're on 'socialism lite' so far.
    And its a pretty dismal situation - we have relatives there.
    I was there a few times in the 1970s when they were getting the communism bug in Greece. Russian commissariat ships with folk on board to preach the advantages of communism were there often. It made for fun times with all the communist rallies.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    I think it is fair to say that the Cold War, that began immediately after Fascism was squashed, was a battle for the hearts and minds of the civilized world.The socialist ideologies had been given a free pass for four years, by virtue of the fact that they had allied themselves with capitalists to secure their own survival.

    It would be naive to suggest that the battle of ideologies ended with the fall of the Soviet Union. Close contact with an enemy always results in the corruption of 'ideals,' on both sides. The average person bears witness to all sorts of hypocrisies, from both sides, that can cause him to question his own leaders, at times.

    Most folks shrug them off, and move on to something that they know how to solve, but the seeds of unrest have been planted, and they eventually sprout, again. Once a 'new' idea takes root, over-zealous people have a tendency to ignore all of the fallacies that were exposed the first time around, and re-package the same old ideas in something that looks newer and shinier. It's the same old ideas, but it is much easier to sell to a brand new audience, that has little interest in history.

    There really is "no new thing under the sun," when it comes to politics.


  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,667 Senior Member
    tennmike said:
    zorba said:
    tennmike said:
    zorba said:
    Mike - add to that the oh-so-often touted Sweden that few, if any, Socialist desirers in this country have ever visited. Oh, Greece isn't doing so well either.
    They're on 'socialism lite' so far.
    And its a pretty dismal situation - we have relatives there.
    I was there a few times in the 1970s when they were getting the communism bug in Greece. Russian commissariat ships with folk on board to preach the advantages of communism were there often. It made for fun times with all the communist rallies.
    They still have them from time-to-time. They can get rather loud, and tourists are best off staying well away.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 7,950 Senior Member

    Regarding Sweden, I was there about 12 years ago on a business trip.  The trip lasted 2 weeks.  There was one guy in particular who I got to know fairly well, and I asked him specifically about socialism in Sweden.  He had no complaints.

    I rode a bus to and from my motel to my work location every day.  It ran on schedule, and the fare was reasonable.  Prices in restaurants seemed reasonable, and the economy appeared to be doing well.  My biggest complaint was the lack of blond haired, blue eyed, good looking young women.  I think I only saw one the entire time I was there.

    Of course that's not the same as living there full time, but that is how I saw the country.

    If Zorba has family who lives there and don't like it, I will certainly defer to them. 

    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,667 Senior Member
    edited February 2019 #38
    If Zorba has family who lives there and don't like it, I will certainly defer to them. 
    I think they like it Ok, but they don't have a pot to **** in, nor a window to throw it out of. They've worked hard their entire lives and have little to show for it, and they certainly don't have the freedom of speech that we have - they were always telling my wife to not discuss certain subjects in public - like being overrun with Moslem immigrants for one. Their tax rates would make an American Liberal's wet dream.
    They've come here a couple of times, and are just amazed at how "rich" we are by comparison - and our "low" tax rates.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • kansashunterkansashunter Senior Member Posts: 1,815 Senior Member

    With the way our politics work these days, the more you guys hate her, the more liberals will love her. She actually owes the vast majority of her power and fame to right wing media outlets demonizing her as next great boogyman to be very very afraid of. Without them amplifying her profile she'd just be another freshman congresswoman making some noise on Twitter. She's basically the Michelle Bachmann of the left. 
    I guess I am confused. The night of the election the left wing media was calling her a rising star, she has been on late night shows and the left wing press covers her all the time. I am thrilled to see her on TV as much as possible.
  • NomadacNomadac Senior Member Posts: 902 Senior Member
    The Millennial's are are being brainwashed in College by Socialist instructors to believe all of this "Free Government Handouts" etc. History is no longer taught in school, so they have no clue about the past. Listen to any sidewalk surveys of Socialism and other current issues and you will find both young and older people are clueless about Current Issues.

    I am glad I am older and will not be around when any of this happens, but hope some with Sane Minds will realize this is a Death Spiral if nthing is done to prevent it from happening.

    God Help Us All.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    Today the heads have been talking nonstop about a group of analysts picking apart this "green deal" and calculating the possible cost of it. They claim 93 trillion over ten years and it would cost each household in the US a little over $600,000.00. Of course the sponsors of the bill don't know where the money would come from.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    This all just keeps getting crazier! When Kamala Harris was asked about the cost of the plan, her answer was "it's not about cost" we should look at it as an investment. Of course there was still no explanation as to where the "investment" would come from. These nutjobs are peeing down everyone's back and swearing that it's raining and they all want to be president!
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,128 Senior Member
    These nutjobs are peeing down everyone's back and swearing that it's raining and they all want to be president!
    Agreed.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,398 Senior Member
    In government speak, when one says 'investment' that is code for 'your taxes are gonna exceed your income'.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,667 Senior Member
    This all just keeps getting crazier! When Kamala Harris was asked about the cost of the plan, her answer was "it's not about cost" we should look at it as an investment.
    From the same state as Nancy "We have to pass the bill to see what's in it" Pelosi.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,926 Senior Member
    You guys just need to let it go...AOC says she's the boss and in charge so those of us out here in the cheap seats need to shut up
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,398 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    You guys just need to let it go...AOC says she's the boss and in charge so those of us out here in the cheap seats need to shut up
    She's talking smack like a tin pot dictator. I don't think she's gonna last long, anyway. Sort of reminds me of a 55 gallon drum with a shovelful of gravel rolling down a hill. Lots of noise but no substance.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,926 Senior Member
    edited February 2019 #48
    I would love to think that someone, anyone is working on sending her down the road...she has taken over the village idiot job in Congress
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,398 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    I would love to think that someone, anyone is working on sending her down the road...she has taken over the village idot job in Congress
    I bet 'Mad Maxx' Maxine Waters is having a hissy conniption fit over AOC stealing the spotlight on crazy. Since AOC hit Washington, D.C. ol' Mad Maxx hasn't been able to get a crazy sound bite in edgewise! :D:D:D:D:D
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    AOC is even upstaging Feinstein. A bunch of school kids went to Feinstein's office in San Fransisco and asked her to support the "new green deal" and she got so pissed that she was hollering at them about knowing what she's doing. This circus just keeps getting better.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,398 Senior Member
    I've said it before and I'll say it again, she's the Michele Bachmann of the left. Ol'Michele lasted 4 terms whipping the opposition into a rabid frenzy with her dumb ideas. I imagine AOC will be around at least as long. I look forward to continuing to read the foaming at the mouth frenzy she whips many of you into over that time period. 
    Well bless your little pea pickin' heart! Whipping us into a frenzy? More like giving us hours and hours of comic relief at a Progresso/Demo/Socialist making a fool of herself every time she opens her mouth. AOC is a daily dose of comic relief! Blondes are making AOC jokes due to their being unseated from the ridicule pedestal. I bet you secretly have a huge crush on her! :D
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • mosseybuckmosseybuck Member Posts: 524 Senior Member
    The real problem is not that bug eyed witch AOC. The real problem is that there are so many morons that voted for her.
    USMC '59-'65, NRA Lifer, Tennessee Squire
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    I've said it before and I'll say it again, she's the Michele Bachmann of the left. Ol'Michele lasted 4 terms whipping the opposition into a rabid frenzy with her dumb ideas. I imagine AOC will be around at least as long. I look forward to continuing to read the foaming at the mouth frenzy she whips many of you into over that time period. 

    As usual, you underestimate the intellect of most of the people on this forum and along with the majority of the general public, most of the folks here consider her a nutcase not worthy of serious consideration. Her outragous and crazy ideas are cause for great amusement for most of us. Do you actually take her seriously? You do share a few of her ideas.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • kansashunterkansashunter Senior Member Posts: 1,815 Senior Member
    Don't include me alpha, I really like AOC. I find it refreshing that a liberal democrat actually says what they want to accomplish. I hope she continues her rise in power. 
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,398 Senior Member
    Don't include me alpha, I really like AOC. I find it refreshing that a liberal democrat actually says what they want to accomplish. I hope she continues her rise in power. 
    AOC is keeping Mad Maxx Waters and Nancy Pelosi  out of the news, and that's a good thing. And her comic relief in the news cycle is refreshing in that the Liberal media is keeping her in the spotlight. And the fact that she's ratting out the entire Demo/Liberal/Progressive/Socialist agenda IS really good. People will see just what they've got planned.

    That Medicare for all she's pushing that will cost $30,000,000,000,000 (THIRTY TRILLION WHICH IS MORE THAN THE PRESENT NATIONAL DEBT) and bankrupt the middle class with 70%+ income tax will get the attention of everyone.

    The more she runs her mouth, the better I like it. People on Alpha's side of the aisle and in flyover country are getting antsy, and that's a good thing.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    .
    tennmike said:
    Don't include me alpha, I really like AOC. I find it refreshing that a liberal democrat actually says what they want to accomplish. I hope she continues her rise in power. 
    AOC is keeping Mad Maxx Waters and Nancy Pelosi  out of the news, and that's a good thing. And her comic relief in the news cycle is refreshing in that the Liberal media is keeping her in the spotlight. And the fact that she's ratting out the entire Demo/Liberal/Progressive/Socialist agenda IS really good. People will see just what they've got planned.

    That Medicare for all she's pushing that will cost $30,000,000,000,000 (THIRTY TRILLION WHICH IS MORE THAN THE PRESENT NATIONAL DEBT) and bankrupt the middle class with 70%+ income tax will get the attention of everyone.

    The more she runs her mouth, the better I like it. People on Alpha's side of the aisle and in flyover country are getting antsy, and that's a good thing.
    While Medicare for all has nothing to do with climate change and I think it was stupid to include as part of a "green New deal", it is way better than what we've got. It also SAVES money overall. Sure more in taxes, but it saves $600-1000 a month in insurance premiums. On net the vast majority of people will be paying less for medical care and taxes combined. 
    Even if the bolded statement did contain some small element of truth, who pays the bill?

    Who makes up that 'vast majority', and how many of them pay taxes, now?

    How long do you think it would take before the producers who have to pay for this Utopian 'wet dream' finally throw up their hands in frustration, and decide to quit swimming upstream?

    Even if you could somehow confiscate all of the vast wealth surplus that exists now, in this country, it would be gone in a few short years, with nobody left that could generate the wealth to replace it. A healthy third world country would not stay healthy for long. Remember - this third world country would still have 300 million guns...or would they?

    Venezuela, dude.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    It is not 'a world I made.'

    We all have to deal with whatever system is in place, or do without. Yes, I take advantage of medicare, because I was required to pay for it, for others, for my entire working life. But that doesn't change the fact that government programs encourage people not to take care of themselves, when they are able-bodied and able to do so. You cannot just assume that medical costs would have skyrocketed out of control, under any system. There are always consequences to anything that tinkers with the free market, and higher costs and inefficiency can be expected from any government administrated institution.

    Had the government been functional enough to have made medicare available only in the amounts available from taxes, medical expenses would be much lower, because the medical industry would have had to exist on what the public was able and willing to pay for. Our life expectancy might be lower, but most of us wouldn't have complained.

    There is no question that much socialism already exists, and that many have benefited from some government programs. The problem is that politicians will not balance the budget on any of the programs that were created to help those who needed it. It is not fair to raise taxes arbitrarily on those who will not benefit from them, just to win elections.

    People accepted many government plans, because they believed they were fair, and were convinced that with the surpluses of wealth, they could afford it. But it never ends, and the bureaucracies keep growing, prices keep rising, and it will bankrupt the country, eventually. Most of all, it gives the government too much power over the individual, and if we have learned anything, it is that politicians cannot be trusted with that much power.

    I am not naive enough to believe that all of these socialist plans can be rolled back, but we can stop the new ones and force them to pay for themselves.




  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,667 Senior Member
    edited March 2019 #58
    "Insurance rates will actually go down..."
    Where have we heard this crap before?
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,096 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    "Insurance rates will actually go down..."
    Where have we heard this crap before?
    Let's not forget...
    "If you like your plan you can keep it"
    (Except for those plans people had, and apparently liked, that didn't meet the mandated minimums, which they seemed to forget to mention)
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,635 Senior Member
    edited March 2019 #60
    You also have to assume Dr.'s are willing to work for what Medicare pays, if medicare is the only payer in town, we are not.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,635 Senior Member
    The amount of time I spend documenting my care to receive a medicare payment is a joke, way out of proportion to other private insurers,  the system is gamed so that ANY clerical error on my part is grounds for a fraudulent claim and is punishable by jail time and a 5 figure fine, there is no middle ground, much like what happens to an FFL that has an error when they are audited, I am guilty until I can prove I am innocent. Auditers are incentivised because they receive a percentage of what is collected from ME. Taking money from the Govt. has consequences.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
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