New Green Deal

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Replies

  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,884 Senior Member
    Mike - add to that the oh-so-often touted Sweden that few, if any, Socialist desirers in this country have ever visited. Oh, Greece isn't doing so well either.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,726 Senior Member
    alphasigmookie said:
    Bisley, the example is FDR. We can argue over the details and the merits of specific proposals, but it definitely did not end up with the country in poverty.
    Poverty was still widespread, when FDR's second term ended. Had he retired after two terms, like every other president in our history, his successor would have gotten credit for ending the depression. By that time, his National Recovery Agency had already failed to jump-start the economy, and been ruled unconstitutional, and his effort to co-opt the Supreme Court had also failed.

    The first effective plan FDR had was the Lend-Lease Act, which put Americans to work, without having to be financed by American taxpayers. It was financed by banks that were guaranteed repayment by the eventual repayment of war debt. Lend-Lease was enacted in the last months of FDR's second term, and subsequent similar plans for selling war materiel to allies eventually put the US on the road to prosperity.

    I give FDR credit for preaching hope to the unemployed, ending Prohibition, and for having the wisdom and courage to resist fascism at an early enough date to make victory possible. No doubt, a good deal of prodding from Winston Churchill helped him to do the latter. His efforts to inject socialism into the American system were half-baked, but probably well intentioned. In the end, pure capitalistic endeavor and war profiteering ended the depression, and propelled us to great prosperity for the majority of the country, and much less painful poverty for US citizens than anywhere else in the world.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,884 Senior Member
    *IF* I remember my history correctly - and I may not - many of FDR's first actions were "rebranded" ideas from Hoover that had previously been rejected. (??)
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,188 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    Mike - add to that the oh-so-often touted Sweden that few, if any, Socialist desirers in this country have ever visited. Oh, Greece isn't doing so well either.
    They're on 'socialism lite' so far.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 3,801 Senior Member
    I kind of have a perception that FDR gets both credit and blame unearned.

    In the books I read, I got an impression of an administration groping in the dark, disparate to find public relief from overwhelming circumstance. The global depression was pandemic.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,884 Senior Member
    tennmike said:
    zorba said:
    Mike - add to that the oh-so-often touted Sweden that few, if any, Socialist desirers in this country have ever visited. Oh, Greece isn't doing so well either.
    They're on 'socialism lite' so far.
    And its a pretty dismal situation - we have relatives there.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,188 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    tennmike said:
    zorba said:
    Mike - add to that the oh-so-often touted Sweden that few, if any, Socialist desirers in this country have ever visited. Oh, Greece isn't doing so well either.
    They're on 'socialism lite' so far.
    And its a pretty dismal situation - we have relatives there.
    I was there a few times in the 1970s when they were getting the communism bug in Greece. Russian commissariat ships with folk on board to preach the advantages of communism were there often. It made for fun times with all the communist rallies.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,726 Senior Member
    I think it is fair to say that the Cold War, that began immediately after Fascism was squashed, was a battle for the hearts and minds of the civilized world.The socialist ideologies had been given a free pass for four years, by virtue of the fact that they had allied themselves with capitalists to secure their own survival.

    It would be naive to suggest that the battle of ideologies ended with the fall of the Soviet Union. Close contact with an enemy always results in the corruption of 'ideals,' on both sides. The average person bears witness to all sorts of hypocrisies, from both sides, that can cause him to question his own leaders, at times.

    Most folks shrug them off, and move on to something that they know how to solve, but the seeds of unrest have been planted, and they eventually sprout, again. Once a 'new' idea takes root, over-zealous people have a tendency to ignore all of the fallacies that were exposed the first time around, and re-package the same old ideas in something that looks newer and shinier. It's the same old ideas, but it is much easier to sell to a brand new audience, that has little interest in history.

    There really is "no new thing under the sun," when it comes to politics.


  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,884 Senior Member
    tennmike said:
    zorba said:
    tennmike said:
    zorba said:
    Mike - add to that the oh-so-often touted Sweden that few, if any, Socialist desirers in this country have ever visited. Oh, Greece isn't doing so well either.
    They're on 'socialism lite' so far.
    And its a pretty dismal situation - we have relatives there.
    I was there a few times in the 1970s when they were getting the communism bug in Greece. Russian commissariat ships with folk on board to preach the advantages of communism were there often. It made for fun times with all the communist rallies.
    They still have them from time-to-time. They can get rather loud, and tourists are best off staying well away.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 6,629 Senior Member

    Regarding Sweden, I was there about 12 years ago on a business trip.  The trip lasted 2 weeks.  There was one guy in particular who I got to know fairly well, and I asked him specifically about socialism in Sweden.  He had no complaints.

    I rode a bus to and from my motel to my work location every day.  It ran on schedule, and the fare was reasonable.  Prices in restaurants seemed reasonable, and the economy appeared to be doing well.  My biggest complaint was the lack of blond haired, blue eyed, good looking young women.  I think I only saw one the entire time I was there.

    Of course that's not the same as living there full time, but that is how I saw the country.

    If Zorba has family who lives there and don't like it, I will certainly defer to them. 

    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,884 Senior Member
    edited February 16 #42
    If Zorba has family who lives there and don't like it, I will certainly defer to them. 
    I think they like it Ok, but they don't have a pot to **** in, nor a window to throw it out of. They've worked hard their entire lives and have little to show for it, and they certainly don't have the freedom of speech that we have - they were always telling my wife to not discuss certain subjects in public - like being overrun with Moslem immigrants for one. Their tax rates would make an American Liberal's wet dream.
    They've come here a couple of times, and are just amazed at how "rich" we are by comparison - and our "low" tax rates.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • kansashunterkansashunter Senior Member Posts: 1,471 Senior Member

    With the way our politics work these days, the more you guys hate her, the more liberals will love her. She actually owes the vast majority of her power and fame to right wing media outlets demonizing her as next great boogyman to be very very afraid of. Without them amplifying her profile she'd just be another freshman congresswoman making some noise on Twitter. She's basically the Michelle Bachmann of the left. 
    I guess I am confused. The night of the election the left wing media was calling her a rising star, she has been on late night shows and the left wing press covers her all the time. I am thrilled to see her on TV as much as possible.
  • NomadacNomadac Senior Member Posts: 890 Senior Member
    The Millennial's are are being brainwashed in College by Socialist instructors to believe all of this "Free Government Handouts" etc. History is no longer taught in school, so they have no clue about the past. Listen to any sidewalk surveys of Socialism and other current issues and you will find both young and older people are clueless about Current Issues.

    I am glad I am older and will not be around when any of this happens, but hope some with Sane Minds will realize this is a Death Spiral if nthing is done to prevent it from happening.

    God Help Us All.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,708 Senior Member
    Today the heads have been talking nonstop about a group of analysts picking apart this "green deal" and calculating the possible cost of it. They claim 93 trillion over ten years and it would cost each household in the US a little over $600,000.00. Of course the sponsors of the bill don't know where the money would come from.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,708 Senior Member
    This all just keeps getting crazier! When Kamala Harris was asked about the cost of the plan, her answer was "it's not about cost" we should look at it as an investment. Of course there was still no explanation as to where the "investment" would come from. These nutjobs are peeing down everyone's back and swearing that it's raining and they all want to be president!
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,351 Senior Member
    These nutjobs are peeing down everyone's back and swearing that it's raining and they all want to be president!
    Agreed.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,188 Senior Member
    In government speak, when one says 'investment' that is code for 'your taxes are gonna exceed your income'.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,884 Senior Member
    This all just keeps getting crazier! When Kamala Harris was asked about the cost of the plan, her answer was "it's not about cost" we should look at it as an investment.
    From the same state as Nancy "We have to pass the bill to see what's in it" Pelosi.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,212 Senior Member
    You guys just need to let it go...AOC says she's the boss and in charge so those of us out here in the cheap seats need to shut up
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,188 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    You guys just need to let it go...AOC says she's the boss and in charge so those of us out here in the cheap seats need to shut up
    She's talking smack like a tin pot dictator. I don't think she's gonna last long, anyway. Sort of reminds me of a 55 gallon drum with a shovelful of gravel rolling down a hill. Lots of noise but no substance.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,212 Senior Member
    edited February 27 #52
    I would love to think that someone, anyone is working on sending her down the road...she has taken over the village idiot job in Congress
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,188 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    I would love to think that someone, anyone is working on sending her down the road...she has taken over the village idot job in Congress
    I bet 'Mad Maxx' Maxine Waters is having a hissy conniption fit over AOC stealing the spotlight on crazy. Since AOC hit Washington, D.C. ol' Mad Maxx hasn't been able to get a crazy sound bite in edgewise! :D :D :D :D :D
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,708 Senior Member
    AOC is even upstaging Feinstein. A bunch of school kids went to Feinstein's office in San Fransisco and asked her to support the "new green deal" and she got so pissed that she was hollering at them about knowing what she's doing. This circus just keeps getting better.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,788 Senior Member
    tennmike said:
    Jayhawker said:
    You guys just need to let it go...AOC says she's the boss and in charge so those of us out here in the cheap seats need to shut up
    She's talking smack like a tin pot dictator. I don't think she's gonna last long, anyway. Sort of reminds me of a 55 gallon drum with a shovelful of gravel rolling down a hill. Lots of noise but no substance.
    I've said it before and I'll say it again, she's the Michele Bachmann of the left. Ol'Michele lasted 4 terms whipping the opposition into a rabid frenzy with her dumb ideas. I imagine AOC will be around at least as long. I look forward to continuing to read the foaming at the mouth frenzy she whips many of you into over that time period. 
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,188 Senior Member
    I've said it before and I'll say it again, she's the Michele Bachmann of the left. Ol'Michele lasted 4 terms whipping the opposition into a rabid frenzy with her dumb ideas. I imagine AOC will be around at least as long. I look forward to continuing to read the foaming at the mouth frenzy she whips many of you into over that time period. 
    Well bless your little pea pickin' heart! Whipping us into a frenzy? More like giving us hours and hours of comic relief at a Progresso/Demo/Socialist making a fool of herself every time she opens her mouth. AOC is a daily dose of comic relief! Blondes are making AOC jokes due to their being unseated from the ridicule pedestal. I bet you secretly have a huge crush on her! :D
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • mosseybuckmosseybuck Member Posts: 464 Member
    The real problem is not that bug eyed witch AOC. The real problem is that there are so many morons that voted for her.
    USMC '59-'65, NRA Lifer, Tennessee Squire
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,708 Senior Member
    I've said it before and I'll say it again, she's the Michele Bachmann of the left. Ol'Michele lasted 4 terms whipping the opposition into a rabid frenzy with her dumb ideas. I imagine AOC will be around at least as long. I look forward to continuing to read the foaming at the mouth frenzy she whips many of you into over that time period. 

    As usual, you underestimate the intellect of most of the people on this forum and along with the majority of the general public, most of the folks here consider her a nutcase not worthy of serious consideration. Her outragous and crazy ideas are cause for great amusement for most of us. Do you actually take her seriously? You do share a few of her ideas.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • kansashunterkansashunter Senior Member Posts: 1,471 Senior Member
    Don't include me alpha, I really like AOC. I find it refreshing that a liberal democrat actually says what they want to accomplish. I hope she continues her rise in power. 
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,188 Senior Member
    Don't include me alpha, I really like AOC. I find it refreshing that a liberal democrat actually says what they want to accomplish. I hope she continues her rise in power. 
    AOC is keeping Mad Maxx Waters and Nancy Pelosi  out of the news, and that's a good thing. And her comic relief in the news cycle is refreshing in that the Liberal media is keeping her in the spotlight. And the fact that she's ratting out the entire Demo/Liberal/Progressive/Socialist agenda IS really good. People will see just what they've got planned.

    That Medicare for all she's pushing that will cost $30,000,000,000,000 (THIRTY TRILLION WHICH IS MORE THAN THE PRESENT NATIONAL DEBT) and bankrupt the middle class with 70%+ income tax will get the attention of everyone.

    The more she runs her mouth, the better I like it. People on Alpha's side of the aisle and in flyover country are getting antsy, and that's a good thing.
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,788 Senior Member
    tennmike said:
    Don't include me alpha, I really like AOC. I find it refreshing that a liberal democrat actually says what they want to accomplish. I hope she continues her rise in power. 
    AOC is keeping Mad Maxx Waters and Nancy Pelosi  out of the news, and that's a good thing. And her comic relief in the news cycle is refreshing in that the Liberal media is keeping her in the spotlight. And the fact that she's ratting out the entire Demo/Liberal/Progressive/Socialist agenda IS really good. People will see just what they've got planned.

    That Medicare for all she's pushing that will cost $30,000,000,000,000 (THIRTY TRILLION WHICH IS MORE THAN THE PRESENT NATIONAL DEBT) and bankrupt the middle class with 70%+ income tax will get the attention of everyone.

    The more she runs her mouth, the better I like it. People on Alpha's side of the aisle and in flyover country are getting antsy, and that's a good thing.
    While Medicare for all has nothing to do with climate change and I think it was stupid to include as part of a "green New deal", it is way better than what we've got. It also SAVES money overall. Sure more in taxes, but it saves $600-1000 a month in insurance premiums. On net the vast majority of people will be paying less for medical care and taxes combined. 
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
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