New Green Deal

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Replies

  • Billy_BuddBilly_Budd Posts: 575 Senior Member
    bisley said:

    blah, blah, blah...

    In short the tides are shifting. I would not be surprised if someone calling them self a socialist is elected president within the next decade. That said, because the current definition has become so divorced from it's original meaning it will not in fact mean that we are "becoming Venezuela" or any of the other outdated scare tactics. It will just mean that we will have elected a president who looks a bit more like FDR than Ronald Reagan. 


    No need to keep repeating myself, here.

    Take all the polls you need, with all of the different 'new' definitions and perceptions that you can scrape up, or invent, and you still end up with zero examples of it ending the poverty that all versions of it purport to be a panacea for. Socialism, in all of its forms, is a lie that can be temporarily sold to the Democrat base, and any other group that has historically been easy to fool.

    I say 'temporarily' because only those who have adopted it as their religion or earn their livelihoods from selling it will continue to make excuses for it, for extended periods of time. There are more ex-Socialists out there than there are ex-smokers, and new 'meat' must to be continuously fed into the political machinery, to keep it functioning. It is why all of the left of center Democrats support open borders, and why they begin indoctrination at earlier ages, and why they encourage entire generations of entire families to live on government handouts. A person with real world experience, that understands the language, can only be fooled for a few years, at best, without continuous government gratuities of ever increasing size.

    By the way, your silly article takes its so called 'data' from 2015, before Democrats started openly admitting that they were socialists.
    But, but, but, Bisley, Alpha learned the wonderful benefits of socialism in skool. Surley his ejamacation counts as real world experience. Lol! 
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,590 Senior Member
    Bisley, the example is FDR. We can argue over the details and the merits of specific proposals, but it definitely did not end up with the country in poverty.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • Billy_BuddBilly_Budd Posts: 575 Senior Member
    Bisley, the example is FDR. We can argue over the details and the merits of specific proposals, but it definitely did not end up with the country in poverty.
    The sole reason the nation was not in poverty was because of WWII.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,801 Senior Member
    World War II brought the South out of the sustained poverty we were in since the end of the Civil War and that misnamed Reconstruction which was nothing more than finishing the rape of the entire South and its resources. My Mother's parents told me something about the Depression that stuck with me. I asked my Grandpa what the Depression was like, and he said he didn't notice much difference, except the government made it harder to get things they couldn't afford to buy in the first place.

    Socialism is nothing more than the creed of envy, and coveting that which some people have, and not wanting to put in the effort to work for and get it on their own. I also note that most people hot for socialism don't contribute much to their own upkeep or to society as a whole. They'd rather 'rob from the rich, keep most for themselves, and give the poor just enough to stave off mass revolt'. That's my take on socialism and socialists. And they all say that socialism failed because it wasn't implemented right and if we just tweaked it a bit it would be heaven on earth. I counter with:
    The Union of Soviet Socialist Republic
    Nazi Germany
    China under Mao
    Zimbabwe
    The collapsing of South Africa no one is reporting about
    Cambodia
    Laos
    Vietnam
    Venezuela
    Italy and France are dabbling heavily in it now and having huge social upheaval over it.

    Many others have also tried that aren't in that short list of abject failures. History is also littered with a few hundred millions of corpses of the people that got shot or ground into the dust due to the 'benevolent socialist governments' that took power. Nobody reads history anymore, so they're ignorant of the warnings it teaches.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,109 Senior Member
    Mike - add to that the oh-so-often touted Sweden that few, if any, Socialist desirers in this country have ever visited. Oh, Greece isn't doing so well either.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,552 Senior Member
    alphasigmookie said:
    Bisley, the example is FDR. We can argue over the details and the merits of specific proposals, but it definitely did not end up with the country in poverty.
    Poverty was still widespread, when FDR's second term ended. Had he retired after two terms, like every other president in our history, his successor would have gotten credit for ending the depression. By that time, his National Recovery Agency had already failed to jump-start the economy, and been ruled unconstitutional, and his effort to co-opt the Supreme Court had also failed.

    The first effective plan FDR had was the Lend-Lease Act, which put Americans to work, without having to be financed by American taxpayers. It was financed by banks that were guaranteed repayment by the eventual repayment of war debt. Lend-Lease was enacted in the last months of FDR's second term, and subsequent similar plans for selling war materiel to allies eventually put the US on the road to prosperity.

    I give FDR credit for preaching hope to the unemployed, ending Prohibition, and for having the wisdom and courage to resist fascism at an early enough date to make victory possible. No doubt, a good deal of prodding from Winston Churchill helped him to do the latter. His efforts to inject socialism into the American system were half-baked, but probably well intentioned. In the end, pure capitalistic endeavor and war profiteering ended the depression, and propelled us to great prosperity for the majority of the country, and much less painful poverty for US citizens than anywhere else in the world.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,109 Senior Member
    *IF* I remember my history correctly - and I may not - many of FDR's first actions were "rebranded" ideas from Hoover that had previously been rejected. (??)
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,801 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    Mike - add to that the oh-so-often touted Sweden that few, if any, Socialist desirers in this country have ever visited. Oh, Greece isn't doing so well either.
    They're on 'socialism lite' so far.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 3,267 Senior Member
    I kind of have a perception that FDR gets both credit and blame unearned.

    In the books I read, I got an impression of an administration groping in the dark, disparate to find public relief from overwhelming circumstance. The global depression was pandemic.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,109 Senior Member
    tennmike said:
    zorba said:
    Mike - add to that the oh-so-often touted Sweden that few, if any, Socialist desirers in this country have ever visited. Oh, Greece isn't doing so well either.
    They're on 'socialism lite' so far.
    And its a pretty dismal situation - we have relatives there.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,801 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    tennmike said:
    zorba said:
    Mike - add to that the oh-so-often touted Sweden that few, if any, Socialist desirers in this country have ever visited. Oh, Greece isn't doing so well either.
    They're on 'socialism lite' so far.
    And its a pretty dismal situation - we have relatives there.
    I was there a few times in the 1970s when they were getting the communism bug in Greece. Russian commissariat ships with folk on board to preach the advantages of communism were there often. It made for fun times with all the communist rallies.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,552 Senior Member
    I think it is fair to say that the Cold War, that began immediately after Fascism was squashed, was a battle for the hearts and minds of the civilized world.The socialist ideologies had been given a free pass for four years, by virtue of the fact that they had allied themselves with capitalists to secure their own survival.

    It would be naive to suggest that the battle of ideologies ended with the fall of the Soviet Union. Close contact with an enemy always results in the corruption of 'ideals,' on both sides. The average person bears witness to all sorts of hypocrisies, from both sides, that can cause him to question his own leaders, at times.

    Most folks shrug them off, and move on to something that they know how to solve, but the seeds of unrest have been planted, and they eventually sprout, again. Once a 'new' idea takes root, over-zealous people have a tendency to ignore all of the fallacies that were exposed the first time around, and re-package the same old ideas in something that looks newer and shinier. It's the same old ideas, but it is much easier to sell to a brand new audience, that has little interest in history.

    There really is "no new thing under the sun," when it comes to politics.


  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,109 Senior Member
    tennmike said:
    zorba said:
    tennmike said:
    zorba said:
    Mike - add to that the oh-so-often touted Sweden that few, if any, Socialist desirers in this country have ever visited. Oh, Greece isn't doing so well either.
    They're on 'socialism lite' so far.
    And its a pretty dismal situation - we have relatives there.
    I was there a few times in the 1970s when they were getting the communism bug in Greece. Russian commissariat ships with folk on board to preach the advantages of communism were there often. It made for fun times with all the communist rallies.
    They still have them from time-to-time. They can get rather loud, and tourists are best off staying well away.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 6,482 Senior Member

    Regarding Sweden, I was there about 12 years ago on a business trip.  The trip lasted 2 weeks.  There was one guy in particular who I got to know fairly well, and I asked him specifically about socialism in Sweden.  He had no complaints.

    I rode a bus to and from my motel to my work location every day.  It ran on schedule, and the fare was reasonable.  Prices in restaurants seemed reasonable, and the economy appeared to be doing well.  My biggest complaint was the lack of blond haired, blue eyed, good looking young women.  I think I only saw one the entire time I was there.

    Of course that's not the same as living there full time, but that is how I saw the country.

    If Zorba has family who lives there and don't like it, I will certainly defer to them. 

    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,109 Senior Member
    edited February 16 #46
    If Zorba has family who lives there and don't like it, I will certainly defer to them. 
    I think they like it Ok, but they don't have a pot to **** in, nor a window to throw it out of. They've worked hard their entire lives and have little to show for it, and they certainly don't have the freedom of speech that we have - they were always telling my wife to not discuss certain subjects in public - like being overrun with Moslem immigrants for one. Their tax rates would make an American Liberal's wet dream.
    They've come here a couple of times, and are just amazed at how "rich" we are by comparison - and our "low" tax rates.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • kansashunterkansashunter Senior Member Posts: 1,411 Senior Member

    With the way our politics work these days, the more you guys hate her, the more liberals will love her. She actually owes the vast majority of her power and fame to right wing media outlets demonizing her as next great boogyman to be very very afraid of. Without them amplifying her profile she'd just be another freshman congresswoman making some noise on Twitter. She's basically the Michelle Bachmann of the left. 
    I guess I am confused. The night of the election the left wing media was calling her a rising star, she has been on late night shows and the left wing press covers her all the time. I am thrilled to see her on TV as much as possible.
  • NomadacNomadac Senior Member Posts: 890 Senior Member
    The Millennial's are are being brainwashed in College by Socialist instructors to believe all of this "Free Government Handouts" etc. History is no longer taught in school, so they have no clue about the past. Listen to any sidewalk surveys of Socialism and other current issues and you will find both young and older people are clueless about Current Issues.

    I am glad I am older and will not be around when any of this happens, but hope some with Sane Minds will realize this is a Death Spiral if nthing is done to prevent it from happening.

    God Help Us All.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,545 Senior Member
    Today the heads have been talking nonstop about a group of analysts picking apart this "green deal" and calculating the possible cost of it. They claim 93 trillion over ten years and it would cost each household in the US a little over $600,000.00. Of course the sponsors of the bill don't know where the money would come from.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,545 Senior Member
    This all just keeps getting crazier! When Kamala Harris was asked about the cost of the plan, her answer was "it's not about cost" we should look at it as an investment. Of course there was still no explanation as to where the "investment" would come from. These nutjobs are peeing down everyone's back and swearing that it's raining and they all want to be president!
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,053 Senior Member
    These nutjobs are peeing down everyone's back and swearing that it's raining and they all want to be president!
    Agreed.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,801 Senior Member
    In government speak, when one says 'investment' that is code for 'your taxes are gonna exceed your income'.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,109 Senior Member
    This all just keeps getting crazier! When Kamala Harris was asked about the cost of the plan, her answer was "it's not about cost" we should look at it as an investment.
    From the same state as Nancy "We have to pass the bill to see what's in it" Pelosi.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,836 Senior Member
    You guys just need to let it go...AOC says she's the boss and in charge so those of us out here in the cheap seats need to shut up
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,801 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    You guys just need to let it go...AOC says she's the boss and in charge so those of us out here in the cheap seats need to shut up
    She's talking smack like a tin pot dictator. I don't think she's gonna last long, anyway. Sort of reminds me of a 55 gallon drum with a shovelful of gravel rolling down a hill. Lots of noise but no substance.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,836 Senior Member
    edited February 27 #56
    I would love to think that someone, anyone is working on sending her down the road...she has taken over the village idiot job in Congress
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,801 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    I would love to think that someone, anyone is working on sending her down the road...she has taken over the village idot job in Congress
    I bet 'Mad Maxx' Maxine Waters is having a hissy conniption fit over AOC stealing the spotlight on crazy. Since AOC hit Washington, D.C. ol' Mad Maxx hasn't been able to get a crazy sound bite in edgewise! :D :D :D :D :D
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,545 Senior Member
    AOC is even upstaging Feinstein. A bunch of school kids went to Feinstein's office in San Fransisco and asked her to support the "new green deal" and she got so pissed that she was hollering at them about knowing what she's doing. This circus just keeps getting better.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,590 Senior Member
    tennmike said:
    Jayhawker said:
    You guys just need to let it go...AOC says she's the boss and in charge so those of us out here in the cheap seats need to shut up
    She's talking smack like a tin pot dictator. I don't think she's gonna last long, anyway. Sort of reminds me of a 55 gallon drum with a shovelful of gravel rolling down a hill. Lots of noise but no substance.
    I've said it before and I'll say it again, she's the Michele Bachmann of the left. Ol'Michele lasted 4 terms whipping the opposition into a rabid frenzy with her dumb ideas. I imagine AOC will be around at least as long. I look forward to continuing to read the foaming at the mouth frenzy she whips many of you into over that time period. 
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,801 Senior Member
    I've said it before and I'll say it again, she's the Michele Bachmann of the left. Ol'Michele lasted 4 terms whipping the opposition into a rabid frenzy with her dumb ideas. I imagine AOC will be around at least as long. I look forward to continuing to read the foaming at the mouth frenzy she whips many of you into over that time period. 
    Well bless your little pea pickin' heart! Whipping us into a frenzy? More like giving us hours and hours of comic relief at a Progresso/Demo/Socialist making a fool of herself every time she opens her mouth. AOC is a daily dose of comic relief! Blondes are making AOC jokes due to their being unseated from the ridicule pedestal. I bet you secretly have a huge crush on her! :D
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • mosseybuckmosseybuck Member Posts: 455 Member
    The real problem is not that bug eyed witch AOC. The real problem is that there are so many morons that voted for her.
    USMC '59-'65, NRA Lifer, Tennessee Squire
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