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New Green Deal

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  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,444 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 said:
    You also have to assume Dr.'s are willing to work for what Medicare pays, if medicare is the only payer in town, we are not.
    They might get a big raise actually. Between sky high administrative costs associated with dealing with insurance companies and patients who don't pay and trying to collect from them, I'd guess that most doctors would net more income with a streamlined single payer system that dealing with a tangled network of insurance companies and deadbeats. 

    Here are some stats on the magnitude of the problem. US doctors pay almost 4X what Canadian ones do on administration. Up to 30% of all medical costs in the US are administrative and a huge chunk of that is billing related. 

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/16/upshot/costs-health-care-us.html

    From personal experience I've spent 6 months trying to get billing right from some PT I got after a car accident. I have spent hours and hours sending emails, requesting bills, sitting on hold, talking to an endless series of customer service reps in the billing department and later a collections agency that they sent some of my bills to. Today after an additional hour and a half on the phone I finally seem to have gotten it all settled. In the end the company ended up pocketing a total of around $1000 from me and my insurance company for which they had to have spent at least 1/3 of that amount in trying to collect the money (partially because they screwed up the billing and the documentation from my insurance company). The amount of time I spend dealing with it was probably worth at least half the total final bill amount. This is not an acceptable or remotely efficient system. 

    All that administrative stuff you're bitching about is FEDERAL AND STATE GOVERNMENT MANDATED.
    And then there's the cost of ILLEGAL ALIENS on the health care system that jack up prices for everyone by over $18 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR.
    Then add on the cost of people who were born tired and haven't got rested enough yet to actually work and pay for their own health care, and we're talking real money.
    Like a poor doctor, you attempt to treat the symptoms and let the disease run rampant through the body.

      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,838 Senior Member
    tennmike said:


    All that administrative stuff you're bitching about is FEDERAL AND STATE GOVERNMENT MANDATED.
    And then there's the cost of ILLEGAL ALIENS on the health care system that jack up prices for everyone by over $18 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR.
    Then add on the cost of people who were born tired and haven't got rested enough yet to actually work and pay for their own health care, and we're talking real money.
    Like a poor doctor, you attempt to treat the symptoms and let the disease run rampant through the body.

    Them dealing with my insurance company has 0% to do with any government mandate. It's all a binary relationship between two corporate entities. No government involvement whatsoever. The complication is that they have to work with dozens of different insurance companies that all have their own separate processes and different negotiated rates etc. 
    Yep, and if I don't want to be a provider for them because of their crappy reimbursement, then I don't have to be a provider. Medicare forces me to send in claims on Medicare eligible folks to Medicare even if I am not a provider, could not have patients pay cash for treatment even if i wanted to. And, there is no getting around not having a Medicare supplemental ins., still have to deal with multiple ins. co. and their networks and policies. 
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,838 Senior Member
    edited March 2019 #64
    CHIRO1989 said:
    You also have to assume Dr.'s are willing to work for what Medicare pays, if medicare is the only payer in town, we are not.




    From personal experience I've spent 6 months trying to get billing right from some PT I got after a car accident. I have spent hours and hours sending emails, requesting bills, sitting on hold, talking to an endless series of customer service reps in the billing department and later a collections agency that they sent some of my bills to. Today after an additional hour and a half on the phone I finally seem to have gotten it all settled. In the end the company ended up pocketing a total of around $1000 from me and my insurance company for which they had to have spent at least 1/3 of that amount in trying to collect the money (partially because they screwed up the billing and the documentation from my insurance company). The amount of time I spend dealing with it was probably worth at least half the total final bill amount. This is not an acceptable or remotely efficient system. 

    It seems to me there's a reason no other country in the world has such a bloated and inefficient health care system. No one in their right mind could chose to spend so much for such poor outcomes and such hassle and inefficiency. 
    Also, I don't see how you can extrapolate your experience with one PT provider and your ins. co. not being able to figure out your billing as the whole system being broken, it is not rocket science to figure out how to correct a bill, if someone goes to collections at my office, they dropped the ball, not me. Auto ins. coverage for PIP benefits is a totally different animal that health ins. or Medicare.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,816 Senior Member
    Insurance companies ie; wall street banks have monopolized the health care industry. Anyone thats dealt with any significant hospitalization can follow the paper trail to this undeniable conclusion. Whether its midicare for all or appropriate regulation from uncle sugar. Some sort of frame work to make fair service and opportunity for everyone is needed.

    Laws and regulation that pave the road for corporate profit are ok but if its for people its wrong????

    Obviously the green deal is extreme, but it does address some real problems.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    So, why don't you switch insurance companies? Maybe because the lack of competition among insurance providers caused by Obamacare has driven the others out?

    I'm still having to pay the same ridiculous rates to the one remaining provider available to me, since Obamacare. I expect you are, too. You have spoken out repeatedly in defense of Obamacare, yet you continue to ignore the monumental downsides of it, and want even more government 'fixes.' Why don't you ask your representatives in Congress for the same sweet deal they have?
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,838 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 said:
    CHIRO1989 said:
    You also have to assume Dr.'s are willing to work for what Medicare pays, if medicare is the only payer in town, we are not.




    From personal experience I've spent 6 months trying to get billing right from some PT I got after a car accident. I have spent hours and hours sending emails, requesting bills, sitting on hold, talking to an endless series of customer service reps in the billing department and later a collections agency that they sent some of my bills to. Today after an additional hour and a half on the phone I finally seem to have gotten it all settled. In the end the company ended up pocketing a total of around $1000 from me and my insurance company for which they had to have spent at least 1/3 of that amount in trying to collect the money (partially because they screwed up the billing and the documentation from my insurance company). The amount of time I spend dealing with it was probably worth at least half the total final bill amount. This is not an acceptable or remotely efficient system. 

    It seems to me there's a reason no other country in the world has such a bloated and inefficient health care system. No one in their right mind could chose to spend so much for such poor outcomes and such hassle and inefficiency. 
    Also, I don't see how you can extrapolate your experience with one PT provider and your ins. co. not being able to figure out your billing as the whole system being broken, it is not rocket science to figure out how to correct a bill, if someone goes to collections at my office, they dropped the ball, not me. Auto ins. coverage for PIP benefits is a totally different animal that health ins. or Medicare.
    You'd think so, yet took me 6 months and half a dozen phone calls, all of which involved being put on hold for 30 min to get to a human to fix my bill. And this was through one of the biggest health insurance companies in the country. 
    Every ins. co. is like that, most of my problems are from the consumer not knowing what their ins. is and my staff having to constantly look up their benefits online to see what they actually have and hope the ins. co website is current and pray their secondary info is correct, or, the patient has not responded to a request for info from the ins. carrier. NONE of this time consuming crap was prevalent before the ACA, the INTENT was to make it expensive and suck to use so that we would all eventually go single payer, I am not sure how this benefits ins. companies, but they are downsizing for sure.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,742 Senior Member
    edited March 2019 #68
    I can't complain about private insurance. I have United Healthcare as a secondary to Medicare since turning 65 in 2011. Even when I was covered solely by UHC and had a myriad of physical problems that needed treatment, I had relatively few problems with bills getting paid or getting prompt and proper treatment through that organization. Many doctors won't even accept Medicare because the fees they pay will not support them unless there is secondary insurance like I have. Expecting "Medicare for all" to solve this country's problems with healthcare coverage is ridiculous. It will only get worse. I have a Canadian friend that has taken his wife for Cancer treatment to the U.S. because of the state of the Canadian Healthcare system. Fortunately for him and his wife, he has the means to pay for outside Canada treatment. What will America's hourly workers do when the US health system cannot provide adequate coverage for them and their families? I doubt they will be able to run off to Canada or Europe for help.

    Besides, when is the last time the US saved any money using a government procurement system? Maybe when that $200 hammer was discounted to $180..... :o
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member

    Obviously the green deal is extreme, but it does address some real problems.
    All 'pigs in a poke' have that in common. There must be a few trinkets to 'catch the eye' in any 'comprehensive plan' to exploit the rubes.

    It's like an old uncle of mine that got a few tons of sesame seeds, just for hauling them off. He had read up on sesame seeds and figured that they would be a great supplementary feed for his registered Angus cattle. But he soon discovered that they would not eat sesame seeds. So, he started mixing the sesame seeds in with some sweet feed, and gradually increased it until the cows would eat it, even without the sweet feed. They still didn't really like sesame seeds, but they got used to it.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,816 Senior Member
    I have serious doubts the masses are ready for increasing green deal proposals. Nor do I think the demoncrats are prepared to sell out their true constituency. A bone and a few leftover crumbs from the corporate sugar bag will keep the peasants quiet.

    Meanwhile I think the left is overplaying their cards with the enuendo attacks on the POTUS, snd all you Trumpers may get another 4 years.
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,194 Senior Member
    Even the people who agree with her on climate can see how stoopid she is.............


    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,444 Senior Member
    I have serious doubts the masses are ready for increasing green deal proposals. Nor do I think the demoncrats are prepared to sell out their true constituency. A bone and a few leftover crumbs from the corporate sugar bag will keep the peasants quiet.

    Meanwhile I think the left is overplaying their cards with the enuendo attacks on the POTUS, snd all you Trumpers may get another 4 years.
    Given the field of Socialist/Communist/Fascist candidates that are throwing their hat in the ring on the Democratic Socialist side, I'll have no choice but to vote for Trump in 2020 if he gets the nomination. Is Trump a normal President? No. Not hardly. He's a businessman that has used that which he learned as a businessman to be successful. He's brash, he throws firebombs at the opposition and the press and seems to be highly accurate in his attacks. The Democrats threw out decorum in government a good while back, and the election of someone like Trump is the result of that. He's sort of the right man for the job right now, and isn't doing such a bad job at it. In two short years he has made the Democrats so mad that they've come completely out of the closet and actually stated that they are Democratic Socialists, heavy on the Socialists part.

    Here's the thing. I like simple things kept simple. The D.C. government has, over a long time, stuck their noses in the business of the States, AND the people, and overcomplicated EVERYTHING. On the New Green Deal, there are some things I just won't tolerate. And they may not be what anyone would suspect.

    Any idea the government comes up with should not have to be FORCED DOWN THE PEOPLE'S THROATS. If it takes that, then it is a seriously flawed idea from the get-go. If it were a GOOD idea, then there would be majority support for it in flyover country.


      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,816 Senior Member
    Absolutely.
    The DNC has created their own antithesis. Putin is ex-KGB. If collusion exists, no evidence does. Trump is an effective executive regardless of how black his hands are. Enuendo not only galvanizes his supporters, it alienates those in search of a smoking gun that never materializes. I can come on here and call him out on every bit of dirt I see fit. Congress critters all over tv trying to do the same look exactly like what they are. 

    Credibility eventually demands substance. Even a big portion of the RNC don't seem to comprehend that. And even ignorant peasants do.

    The green deal will bring light to somethings that are in need, but just like DOJ smoke and fog, the afternoon sun reveals a few asses pointed skyward.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    I have accepted the idea that Donald Trump will probably never string together enough good actions to make me like him, as a person. But, I have also accepted the idea that he will rarely be bluffed out of doing what he intends to do. That can be good or bad, so he has to be monitored carefully. In the meantime, he is a gifted negotiator, in certain circumstances, such as finding a path through the minefield of brinkmanship with a dangerous enemy. We have a lot of dangerous enemies, at home and abroad, and since he has the job, it is much better to support him when he is succeeding at something that I want done than to be overcome with anguish, when he screws up. I am resolved to let him run free (mostly), until his enemies figure out a way to destroy him. Hopefully, their efforts to bring him down will harm them greatly, also.

    It is a very cynical way to view American politics, but it is the world we live in, at present. Maybe it won't become a permanent attitude. Either way, I can think of no other person at this point in time who has the unrelenting nerve and vigor to do any better.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,444 Senior Member
    tennmike said:


    All that administrative stuff you're bitching about is FEDERAL AND STATE GOVERNMENT MANDATED.
    And then there's the cost of ILLEGAL ALIENS on the health care system that jack up prices for everyone by over $18 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR.
    Then add on the cost of people who were born tired and haven't got rested enough yet to actually work and pay for their own health care, and we're talking real money.
    Like a poor doctor, you attempt to treat the symptoms and let the disease run rampant through the body.

    Them dealing with my insurance company has 0% to do with any government mandate. It's all a binary relationship between two corporate entities. No government involvement whatsoever. The complication is that they have to work with dozens of different insurance companies that all have their own separate processes and different negotiated rates etc. 

     Tennmike shows you the facts but yet you're still in denial. And you supposedly went to college? ... Lol!
    You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think. :D
    There are HUGE paperwork requirements mandated by states and Fed that complicate the whole thing beyond imagining.
    CHIRO1989 laid out the skinny on the insurance companies, too. And how the patient can hose it up regarding claims.
    So the answer is to put everyone on Medicare? A GOVERNMENT RUN SINGLE PAYER MESS????? Alpha, you've worked for the gooberment a lot as a contractor. Name ONE thing the government has taken control of that is cheaper, runs more efficiently, and is simplified! Name just ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :D:D:D:D:D
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,849 Senior Member
    Oh please...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,816 Senior Member
    I don't know if history has delivered ramifications to congressional committees or not.

    Dirt on Trump will be easy to find. If it's chicken squeeze, the media won't be able to successfully spin it good
    enough to sell to a majority of the electorate.


  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    edited March 2019 #78
    In 2015, 138 million taxpayers supplied 55 million retirees with Medicare payouts. At the same rate, all emergency payout funds will be gone in 12 years. So there is a tax increase built in to that equation, some time during the next 12 years.

    Medicare for everyone will pay out for something north of 300 million Americans and an unknown number of illegal aliens. Figure out for yourself how much taxes will have to go up to pay that bill. Then figure how much that will 'snowball' because 245 million of those recipients won't be dying off after 10-15 years, like the retirees are generous enough to do, now.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,816 Senior Member
    How much annual tax revenue dollars are spent on corporate subsidies and extravagant military defense of corporate empire compared to the largest (by amount) cost projection of medicare for all????
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    It's your story, you tell it.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,073 Senior Member
    tennmike said:

    You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think. :D
    There are HUGE paperwork requirements mandated by states and Fed that complicate the whole thing beyond imagining.
    CHIRO1989 laid out the skinny on the insurance companies, too. And how the patient can hose it up regarding claims.
    So the answer is to put everyone on Medicare? A GOVERNMENT RUN SINGLE PAYER MESS????? Alpha, you've worked for the gooberment a lot as a contractor. Name ONE thing the government has taken control of that is cheaper, runs more efficiently, and is simplified! Name just ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :D:D:D:D:D
    Medicare

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/10796648_Medicare_versus_private_insurance_Rhetoric_and_reality

    Good lord that info is from 18 years ago.  Long before obama care made all insurance even worse.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,444 Senior Member
    Diver43 said:
    tennmike said:

    You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think. :D
    There are HUGE paperwork requirements mandated by states and Fed that complicate the whole thing beyond imagining.
    CHIRO1989 laid out the skinny on the insurance companies, too. And how the patient can hose it up regarding claims.
    So the answer is to put everyone on Medicare? A GOVERNMENT RUN SINGLE PAYER MESS????? Alpha, you've worked for the gooberment a lot as a contractor. Name ONE thing the government has taken control of that is cheaper, runs more efficiently, and is simplified! Name just ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :D:D:D:D:D
    Medicare

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/10796648_Medicare_versus_private_insurance_Rhetoric_and_reality

    Good lord that info is from 18 years ago.  Long before obama care made all insurance even worse.
    Well, he didn't answer my question. Big hairy surprise.
    Anyway, I remember Alpha grousing about the Navy computer system and internet connectivity when he was working for that contractor. Said it was super slow. That's typical of all government agencies/bureaus/orgs. Put 350,000,000 citizens and around 40,000,000 illegals on that system for Medicare in one fell swoop and watch it slow down to a REAL snail's pace.

    Speaking of Obamacare, remember how smoothly that rollout went, and continued to be a total failure after a year? Sign up by computer? :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D It was screwed up even after the two year mark! "If you like your doctor/plan, you can keep your doctor/plan." Obama said that, and he also said your insurance premium would drop by $2,500. How did that work out? MY insurance tripled in price and covered LESS. But it DID cover me in case I needed a hysterectomy. I had lots of coverage I didn't need, and didn't have coverage I had before that I DID need.

    Health care is 17.8 percent of the economy.
    With Medicare for all, there will be NO private insurance allowed. Killing nearly 18% of the economy in one fell stroke would be catastrophic for the economy. The fools pushing it know that; part of that end game they're trying to get to.

    With Medicare for all, prices for all procedures will rise. No bid contracts for drugs, prosthetics, and medical equipment prices will rise along with everything else. Single payer is working so well in Canada that Canadians come to the U.S. to get procedures that are severely rationed in Canada.

    If it ain't broke, don't be going and 'fixing' it.

      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,816 Senior Member
    There can likely be a very substantial argument made against an actual need for medicare for all, but only in light of perpetuation of privatised insurance.

    The problem with a healthcare debate for me is the question insurance regulation. Do any of us know or have access to what powers of latitude exist in premium rates, or price negotiation with providers???
    I haven't looked online yet, but I suspect heavy reading through an intentional maze of legal hieroglyphics, amost none of which exist to serve the consumer.

    If we're to have big government out of our healthcare, untangling protections and preemptions for big wall street insurance will be every bit as daunting as medicare for all.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,849 Senior Member
    Ah! The old "Why aren't we like the rest of the world?" argument.
    If someone prefers "the rest of the world", please go there.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,444 Senior Member
    So the case should be even stronger now right? 

    Another question for the rest of you. If our system of private insurance is so great why are we literally the only developed country in the world that does things this way? 
    Why are we the only developed country in the world that does things this way?
    BECAUSE IT WORKS! We have the best, the premier, health care system extant in the world, and it works. It would work even better without insurance and healthcare lobbyists paying off crooked filthy sewer scum bottom feeding Congresscritters. And because we are NOT LIKE THE REST OF THE CRAPHOLE WORLD that keeps a flying lip lock on the SOCIALIST teat.

    And you STILL haven't answered my question. And I KNOW WHY! YOU CAN'T!
    Here's the question:
    "Name ONE thing the government has taken control of that is cheaper, runs more efficiently, and is simplified! Name just ONE!"
    Awaiting answer, but not holding my breath.



      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,816 Senior Member
    I was kind of questioning as I thought about this thread.

    Why is current medicare ok, but medicare for all socialism?????

    And if current medicare is also socialism, why does it work?????
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,444 Senior Member
    tennmike said:
    So the case should be even stronger now right? 

    Another question for the rest of you. If our system of private insurance is so great why are we literally the only developed country in the world that does things this way? 
    Why are we the only developed country in the world that does things this way?
    BECAUSE IT WORKS! We have the best, the premier, health care system extant in the world, and it works. It would work even better without insurance and healthcare lobbyists paying off crooked filthy sewer scum bottom feeding Congresscritters. And because we are NOT LIKE THE REST OF THE CRAPHOLE WORLD that keeps a flying lip lock on the SOCIALIST teat.

    And you STILL haven't answered my question. And I KNOW WHY! YOU CAN'T!
    Here's the question:
    "Name ONE thing the government has taken control of that is cheaper, runs more efficiently, and is simplified! Name just ONE!"
    Awaiting answer, but not holding my breath.



    I answered it very clearly and you ignored me. The answer is Medicare. I've yet to see one person on Medicare renounce it and voluntarily move to private insurance or chose to pay their own way. 


    Sweet Mother of Deflection! You didn't even come close to answering my question!

    Medicare costs would be lower if a lot of people who never paid into the program weren't put on it.
    PRIVATE INSURANCE would be a LOT cheaper if everyone paid for their own private coverage, and
    Illegal aliens were forced to pay for their Dr. and hospital costs, and
    Lobbyists for the health care system from all fronts were hanged in front of the Capitol Building as a matter of normal business. THEY drive up costs due to sweetheart deals with crooked Congresscritters, who should also be hanged beside them.

    And up until last year I WAS paying my own insurance costs. At 65 your normal health insurance company drops you off the rolls and you go on Medicare and pay for the supplemental policy to cover what Medicare doesn't pay. And I paid for my Medicare every paycheck while working.

    Tell YOUR generation to buy health insurance and cost of inidvidual/family coverage will fall. Too many folks rolling the dice and taking a free ride on the health care system.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,444 Senior Member
    I was kind of questioning as I thought about this thread.

    Why is current medicare ok, but medicare for all socialism?????

    And if current medicare is also socialism, why does it work?????
    Medicare was set up to take care of health insurance issues for retirees. You paid in your whole life for it to support the system, and when you retire you start getting the benefit. Like Social Security was supposed to be.

    Putting EVERYONE on Medicare benefits those millions that didn't ever contribute a cent to it.

    And both Medicare and Social Security are PONZI SCHEMES. Look up Ponzi Scheme to find out why, and why calling either Medicare or Social Security a form of socialism is a load of meadow muffins. Nothing but a clever deflection to fool the unwary. Alfalfa does that all the time, either through ignorance, or as a directed form of deceit.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,816 Senior Member
    tennmike said:
    I was kind of questioning as I thought about this thread.

    Why is current medicare ok, but medicare for all socialism?????

    And if current medicare is also socialism, why does it work?????
    Medicare was set up to take care of health insurance issues for retirees. You paid in your whole life for it to support the system, and when you retire you start getting the benefit. Like Social Security was supposed to be.

    Putting EVERYONE on Medicare benefits those millions that didn't ever contribute a cent to it.

    And both Medicare and Social Security are PONZI SCHEMES. Look up Ponzi Scheme to find out why, and why calling either Medicare or Social Security a form of socialism is a load of meadow muffins. Nothing but a clever deflection to fool the unwary. Alfalfa does that all the time, either through ignorance, or as a directed form of deceit.
    Your discription of the current programs answers my questions perfectly.

    The ponzi scheme analogy is debatable with the absence of intent for profit, excluding the presence of occasional corruption.

    Assuming credibility of Alpha's contention of employers gaming the system. Its very difficult for me to in vision a medicare for all program that doesn't lend itself to similar corruption commensurate with its size.

    On the other side, private insurance has monopolized healthcare in detriment.


  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,444 Senior Member
    Mike, we're already paying for most of those people through Medicaid. 

    Also the true freeloaders are businesses that don't provide their employees health insurance. That is largely solved by paying for Medicare for all with an increase in the payroll tax. Anyone who wants to hire someone has to pay the tax, thus have to pay into their healthcare. No more massive corporate freeloaders. 

    Anyway, I don't have any hope of this somehow morphing into a productive discussion. 
    Health insurance provided by the employer is NOT A RIGHT.  It's a negotiated benefit. Health care is NOT A RIGHT; you have no right to the services of someone else unless you believe in slavery. Democrats have been known to support that curious institution in the past.

    Medicare for all would sort of work, sorta kinda, if EVERYONE WAS PAYING THEIR FAIR SHARE OF THE COST. Far too many of your generation, and the one coming behind you don't want to pay for your insurance; you want it for FREE! FREE! FREE! Too bad all y'all still haven't figured out that the FREE! FREE! FREE! stuff from the government is paid for by people and businesses that are TAXED to provide the FREE! FREE! FREE! stuff! If all y'all want to pay 70% income taxes, provided all y'all actually work, then knock yourselves out; go for it. There will still be millions of folk born tired and haven't got rested yet that WON'T WORK and enjoy the free ride on YOUR DIME!

    How people can attain a college education and be so dense no longer amazes me. Basic economics is obviously far too hard a course of study for most. And being blind to human nature is also something I still don't understand when it is constantly on parade.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
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