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New Green Deal

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  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,742 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    Ah! The old "Why aren't we like the rest of the world?" argument.
    If someone prefers "the rest of the world", please go there.
    Yeah, all stinkin' commies are welcome to emigrate to countries that please their desires to be with the freedom taking parasites!
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,742 Senior Member
    Mike, we're already paying for most of those people through Medicaid. 

    Also the true freeloaders are businesses that don't provide their employees health insurance. That is largely solved by paying for Medicare for all with an increase in the payroll tax. Anyone who wants to hire someone has to pay the tax, thus have to pay into their healthcare. No more massive corporate freeloaders. 

    Anyway, I don't have any hope of this somehow morphing into a productive discussion. 
    Having never operated a business, I'm not surprised you feel that way. For you, a productive discussion would be for the rest of us to agree with you.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member



    Also the true freeloaders are businesses that don't provide their employees health insurance.  
    Explain your reasoning for this rediculous statement.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,194 Senior Member
    edited March 2019 #95
    Here is where your theory fails. There are people out there who started at a $8 minimum wage job. Went to work every day and stayed at the job for a year or so. Then they went with their good work history and found a better $12 job. Then when they learned good marketable skills, they found a better $16-$20 job...... 

    Overnite their $16-$20 buying power will be reduced by 20%or more because everyone will increase prices to pay every burger flipper $15.

    I know someone who boohoos all of the time about how it isn't fair they can't afford anything. This person is 24 and has a resume of 8 jobs. None are longer than 6 months. ''This job sucks, coworkers are mean to me, customers are rude''......... The path to a living wage has always been there, now you (like your entire generation) wants to have it given to you. 
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,816 Senior Member
    I think I misunderstood here.

    I thought the contention was employers not paying medicare tax. It's actually employers not providing healthcare to their workers.

    And furthermore, we that have insurance are indirectly footing the bill for those uninsured, and also indirectly subsidising those employers that don't provide healthcare benifits.

    The debate now not only encompassing medicare for all versus medicare for the retired, but also tax payer expense of medicaid as well.

    Once again condensing into a solution that provides for all but not paid for by all with the usual character disparagement of the poor versus the same directed at the wealthy.

    If ever I've seen a case for big government regulation, the private insurance industry is it.
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,742 Senior Member
    edited March 2019 #97

    I know many here disagree with me, but I believe that anyone who puts in a solid 40 hours a week at any job should be provided with an income and benefits that provide a minimum of a roof over their head, basic transportation, food on their plate, and basic health care. Slaves were provided as much, medieval surfs were provided as much, indentured servants were provided as much, and your average Walmart checkout clerk should be provided as much as well.  Anyone providing employment that does not meet those minimum requirement is freeloading on society if you ask me. 
    You believe what K-12 + University has told you to believe. I don't think leeches were very expensive in those days. You're a real champion of wealth redistribution....a real Bernie and AOC suck-up.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,816 Senior Member
    Or at least stem the tide a bit.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    Alpha, you only see the top and bottom of the "ladder" yet the majority of the rungs are in the middle. As JBP-Ohio pointed out, there are entry level jobs that used to be filled by high school kids like dishwashers, bussers, fast food workers, ect... and those kids either got an education or aquired mores skills and consequently more pay. You're living in a dream world if you think entry level jobs should pay a living wage and provide medical benefits. Your latte at Starbucks would cost about $45.00.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,194 Senior Member
     I loathe watching the news but the last time I did while the $15 March was going on they talked to a woman who worked at McD's for 8 years without a raise......

    You don't say...
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,816 Senior Member
    People that work full time and are eligible for public assistance are working for empoyers that are subsidising their labor costs at tax payer expense.

    The smoke and mirrors of televising fast food workers is typical hocus pocus disguising alot of other similar paying jobs.

    Im not necessarily advocating all of the same solutions as Alpha, but the problems he's exampled are not fictitious.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,444 Senior Member
    Alpha, you say that there is no upward mobility. That is a total unmitigated LIE. There are many, MANY jobs in the trades that are going unfilled, and have been for years. And they don't require 4-8 years in college pursuing a worthless degree in Women and Gender Studies, or Underwater Basket Weaving. Welders, plumbers, pipe fitters, iron workers, operating engineers that install very heavy equipment in factories, programming and running/repairing assembly line robotics, journeyman electricians, and on and on. The jobs that pay good with minimal investment compared to college are out there. But if one wants to fritter away their life as a cubicle rat, then those jobs are not for them.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    Alpha, you only see the top and bottom of the "ladder" yet the majority of the rungs are in the middle. As JBP-Ohio pointed out, there are entry level jobs that used to be filled by high school kids like dishwashers, bussers, fast food workers, ect... and those kids either got an education or aquired mores skills and consequently more pay. You're living in a dream world if you think entry level jobs should pay a living wage and provide medical benefits. Your latte at Starbucks would cost about $45.00.
     I do pretty ok and have a fair amount of disposable income, but I rent a house, live with a roommate, drive a 10 year old vehicle and I'm not married and don't have any kids and have good employer supplied healthcare. If I had to support a family or made a few minor lifestyle upgrades that many would associate with the middle rather than the upper class I'd quickly be struggling.

    Anyone who lives beyond their means would struggle, that statement doesn't reinforce any point.

    In short what we associate with as "middle class" is increasingly not the middle, but in fact the upper class (top 10% or so) with people in the actual middle increasingly looking like the lower class. It hasn't always been like this and it doesn't have to be like this. I'm not particularly ok with it, but it seems that maybe you are. 

    What you're "ok with" is people receiving more than they work for. I don't know what criteria you use for your class separation statistics but in the real world, a low income individual can live comfortably and a higher income individual can struggle. It's about living within your means.



    My family and entire life is a testament to the inaccuracy of the BS that you constantly try to convince people of. As I've mentioned before, my parents immigrated here from Hungary in July of 1958 literally with only the cloths on their backs and a blanket that my brother was wrapped in. They spoke no english, mom had a second grade education but dad went all the way to sixth grade. My parents each had multiple jobs before it was fashionable and they eventually worked their way up to a nice suburb outside of Milwaukee with everything paid for. In fact, my parents never had a loan or even a checking account. My mom retired as a cleaning lady at Pabst and my dad worked at a foundry (Falk) so you would probably classify them as lower middle class but yet they lived comfortably within their means. They were good at saving money and not buying things that they didn't need and managed to go to europe to visit family for a month every five years or so. Mom made a comment to me years ago that stuck with me,. 'if you want more, work more".
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,493 Senior Member
    tennmike said:
    Alpha, you say that there is no upward mobility. That is a total unmitigated LIE. There are many, MANY jobs in the trades that are going unfilled, and have been for years. And they don't require 4-8 years in college pursuing a worthless degree in Women and Gender Studies, or Underwater Basket Weaving. Welders, plumbers, pipe fitters, iron workers, operating engineers that install very heavy equipment in factories, programming and running/repairing assembly line robotics, journeyman electricians, and on and on. The jobs that pay good with minimal investment compared to college are out there. But if one wants to fritter away their life as a cubicle rat, then those jobs are not for them.
    We struggle to find good workers to replace the guys retiring.  I would say that our apprenticeship has about a 75% top out rate, and of those I would say that maybe 75% are going to be productive members in our union.  The other 25% that top out will probably spend most of their career sitting on the books always waiting for a job.  I know that my class started with 23 and finished with 10.  We had a lot of drop outs, some hold backs, a removal, and one who ended it two days before topping out.  Compared to when I went through the program (not all that long ago) the school now coddles the apprentices that should be removed from the program.  That is how desperate they are to bring in new people.  We have been lowering our standards to fill the work slots.  This will ultimately be a bad move though.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,849 Senior Member
    My family and entire life is a testament to the inaccuracy of the BS that you constantly try to convince people of. As I've mentioned before, my parents immigrated here from Hungary in July of 1958 literally with only the cloths on their backs and a blanket that my brother was wrapped in. They spoke no English, mom had a second grade education but dad went all the way to sixth grade. My parents each had multiple jobs before it was fashionable and they eventually worked their way up to a nice suburb outside of Milwaukee with everything paid for. In fact, my parents never had a loan or even a checking account. My mom retired as a cleaning lady at Pabst and my dad worked at a foundry (Falk) so you would probably classify them as lower middle class but yet they lived comfortably within their means. They were good at saving money and not buying things that they didn't need and managed to go to europe to visit family for a month every five years or so. Mom made a comment to me years ago that stuck with me,. 'if you want more, work more".
    And let me guess: They didn't expect Americans to speak Hungarian, provide election documents in Hungarian, or give them everything/anything on a silver platter.
    Wow - what a concept. The same that has worked, and continues to work, for every immigrant family save those that speak ONE certain language. And that language isn't Hungarian, Greek, Vietnamese, Korean, Italian, English, or even Arabic.
    Let me further guess that one reason they were able to live within their means was because the damn gov't didn't tax them to death, or regulate things to death - the "green deal" insanity that I fled Commiefornia to get away from, cradle-to-grave healthcare provided by the state, electricity "baselines" that wouldn't light a 40 watt lightbulb in a grass hut in a 3rd world country, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,074 Senior Member
    Alpha. You have me curious.  Just what do you consider middle class  income?  Something tells me we all are not on the same sheet of music as they say.
    Just to make the math easy, say you work at McDs for 9.00 an hour and I work for Uncle S for 20.00, if you get a raise to 15.00, to flip burgers, what should I make ?  And if I make that much more, how much more should an ER Doctor make? How about the pilot that flys the big Airbus? Or even how much should Alpha now make when a kid in high school or 30 year old without finishing high school makes that 15.00 an hour?
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,439 Senior Member
    I think one of the things that is being misconstrued is the "lifestyle" argument. Most families did NOT pay for catv, cell phones, carry credit card debt, and buy nearly as much junk food or for that matter high end meats.

    People starting out dont want a house that is a bit cramped with no AC where they HAVE to do their own maintenance.

    If you eliminate those new "necessities" and look at them as what they are, unneeded expenditures, one would find a lot more in their budgets for buying a STARTER home with money down like our fathers did because they had to. You couldnt even get a home loan with less than 20% down and a work history in the 60's.

    The I cant have what my grandfather/father did is a bit disingenuous. People want toys and to live the high life NOW, then complain about why they cant have what their parents have. I think the new term for a disinclination to work towards a lifestyle you want to achieve is YOLO
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member

    I'm talking about macroeconomics. What the playing field looks like. My argument is that an auto worker or a cleaning lady and a foundry worker today who worked just as hard would not able to afford the same lifestyle as individuals pursuing the same career paths today as your parents and my grandparents did in previous generations. I'm saying the playing field has tilted to the detriment of hard working people. I just want to tilt the field back I'm the right direction.
    This is where I think you're wrong. The playing field hasn't changed as much as society has. Recent generations don't possess the work ethic that previous generations did and older generations didn't have the sense of entitlement that recent generations do. Maybe you're efforts would be better spent motivating people of your generation to want to work for whatever they want and not expect it to be given to them.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,074 Senior Member
    Alpha you forgot to figure geographical location in there.  You live in a high cost area, 52K and you could hardly live and eat.  But in other areas you could do just fine with a family of four.
    Just like AOC's ideas are out of touch, so are those figures
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,849 Senior Member
    I think one of the things that is being misconstrued is the "lifestyle" argument. Most families did NOT pay for catv, cell phones, carry credit card debt, and buy nearly as much junk food or for that matter high end meats.

    Thank you.
    At the risk of beating a dead horse - I know people who don't have a pot to piss in nor a window to throw it out of, yet pay that $80/mo for a smartfone that is a complete luxury item. They get it turned off occasionally for non-payment, but promptly get it turned back on ASAP. CATV is another example as you state.
    A certain ex forum member here apparently didn't see anything wrong with this, but I sure do.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,742 Senior Member
    edited March 2019 #111
    The wealth is already being redistributed, it's just being slowly extracted from the working class through wage stagnation and inflation and flowing entirely into the hands of the few at the top. I'm just in favor of reversing the process. 
    I had my first job in 1963 working in a diner as someone that cleaned floors, cleaned out the grease trap, and other sundry unpleasant tasks for $1.05 per hour, which was minimum wage. I was still a high school student and didn't expect to make a lot of money. Back then a skilled worker could make enough to own a modest house and support a family of 4 persons. My father was one of those skilled workers. He was a Navy veteran, did 6 years during WWII and learned to be a machinist in the Navy. My point is that if you have a skill, you can be highly paid. In today's economy, a skilled welder can make over 100K per year. It kind of makes you think about how useless those silly college courses some people take in a Liberal Arts program, like Gender Studies, and all the other Bull Sheisse courses that are offered. A lot of college enrollees make poor course major choices, and end up with a huge debt and nothing to show for it but a useless sheepskin. You are the product of intelligent choices in school, and your economic status proves that. Maybe you should spend some of your time encouraging potential college applicants to rethink what they want to do with their lives, instead of annoying us with your left-wing "solutions." College isn't always the answer, at least not the programs that some enter into. Artificially high minimum wages are not going to solve the earnings problems. It will be educations that produce skills/talents that are in demand. We have an economy that is producing a 3.5% unemployment rate and thousands of job openings are going unfilled because there is a lack of qualified applicants.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,849 Senior Member
    We certainly could discuss all day the ridiculousness of our over priced higher education system.
    I went to work at a TV shop when I was in high school - during two different summers. I also had my own little TV shop in the shed behind my parent's house - its how I made my "folding money" - that and aluminum can recycling.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,194 Senior Member


    People starting out dont want a house that is a bit cramped with no AC where they HAVE to do their own maintenance.

    If you eliminate those new "necessities" and look at them as what they are, unneeded expenditures, one would find a lot more in their budgets for buying a STARTER home with money down like our fathers did because they had to. You couldnt even get a home loan with less than 20% down and a work history in the 60's. 
    A perfect example of this is the house next to my parents. It was a nice house in a nice old neighborhood. The people who lived there raised their kids and when the kids left they moved to downsize. I know the couple who bought the house. They worked menial factory labor jobs, called off work as much as they could without being fired, always rented crap houses and treated those house like a flop house. Everything they had came from Rent-A-Center.

    Yet low and behold they got a $90,000 loan to buy a house. Now there are dog holes and dog crap all over the yard, a pile of drywall and trim work piled in the back yard and cardboard over multiple windows. There are disconnect notices taped to the door every couple months.

    The banks knew what they were doing.
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,439 Senior Member
    No one pays min wage anymore, its a false flag.

    Wally world is about 12/hr right now PT with 401K. There are a lot of people who dont want to work who will say its part time and that they cant get by on 30 hours a week.

    Back to the Grandpas house analogy. If gpa is working for Chevy he is working shifts and probably doing 60h on avg/week. I know that in the 70's my father was doing 70-80/week construction.

    So, if you get done at Wally World, walk across the parking lot and work at Target for another 30h/week, thats 37K/year for massively unskilled menial labor. The reason that people dont do that, or do it for long, is because the ones who are willing to work like that dont last at that type of position.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,439 Senior Member
    Diver43 said:
    Alpha you forgot to figure geographical location in there.  You live in a high cost area, 52K and you could hardly live and eat.  But in other areas you could do just fine with a family of four.
    Just like AOC's ideas are out of touch, so are those figures
    I made 52k when I lived in Columbus in the early 2000's. Yes I did okish, yes and I would have considered myself middle class back then, but I still felt like buying an entry level house in a low cost of living area was stretching myself and I didn't have a family. Adjusted for inflation that salary was like making 70k today so really even that was above middle class levels. Admittedly and ironically I tend to be highly conservative with regards to my own financial well being and generally am most comfortable living well below my means, but buying an entry level house still would have required on the order of 50% of my take home pay each month in total costs.   

    For those that want to play with the impact of how inflation and wage stagnation has eroded your buying power here's an inflation calculator

    https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=38000&year1=200401&year2=201901 
    Math time.
    70k/year is 5833/mo, x.66 for net is 3850/mo after taxes.
    Current median home price in Colombus OH is 139200. - 20% is 111360.
    111360 on a 15 year fixed is 847.00 at 4.41%
    Thats median home prices, not starter home prices.
    Prop taxes and ins on that home wont put it over 1K/mo Lets call it 1200/mo including a sinking fund for repairs. Not half.

    If you "feel" like you couldnt buy a home, or you dont have the money to, then the problem isnt that you make to little or the costs are to much.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,439 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio said:


    The banks knew what they were doing.
    Until the govt stepped in to "help" and caused the housing bubble and crashes that have followed.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,444 Senior Member
    When I left nuke power we were making just shy of $25/hr as an Assistant Unit Operator. And we had problems replacing the folks, like me, that were retiring. Out of a class of 30 'recruits', we'd be lucky to glean 15 from the class at the last step, Step 4 when they took the final written and oral exam. The problems were twofold. They had 4 year degrees in chemistry/physics as required, but they couldn't learn the mechanics of the job. And they couldn't get the part of tying all the systems together in their heads regarding, "If this system flow changes, it changes the parameters of these associated systems". And the washouts were as mechanically inclined as a slug.

    Work could really get physical, especially during refueling outage. And some of the ones that passed the last step and were now working the job were beyond lazy slugs, especially the females. All the old farts like me were continually having to leave our area of responsibility to help them do their jobs, especially if it required breaking a big 18" or larger valve off seat, and then they'd gripe about having to hand crank it the rest of the way open. Us 'corn fed' country guys and gals that didn't have the 4 year degree did just fine though, and knew when help was needed, and gave it without asking. The 'new folk' didn't do that.

    And on system critical function testing, when you were testing equipment that had the potential to trip the reactor, the new folk were generally worthless. They had the freakin' written procedure that outlined EVERY STEP, and had all the precautions to watch for when doing the test. But they were 'chicken' to do it alone, even after multiple times being there and watching it done, and then doing it under a senior AUO's supervision. Several of us retired within a few months of each other and there was more than a little panic in the plant management due to the fact that ALL of us were the expert 'go-to' people on critical test procedures due to the new people being less than competent at it. And most of the older folks I worked with in Operations were already upgrading from Assistant Unit Operator to Unit Operator, and sitting in the Control Room, trying to direct these folks. And the year after I left, the retirements of the old AUOs accelerated to a rapid pace.

    End result; a lot of the test procedures went to the Electricians, Instrument Mechanics, Health Physics, Chem lab, and other departments. And AUO wages stagnated due to the reduced work requirements. Talk about a group cutting their noses to spite their own faces!

    And just an aside, rising wages always causes inflation making goods and services more expensive, making the raise less valuable, and the tax bracket creep takes a bite out of that raise apple, too. Economics is hard, and it's harder when you don't have a basic understanding of how economics in businesses work.

      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,816 Senior Member
    Alpha has made a distinction between macro and micro, and with the exception of Fisheadgib, people continue with microeconomics.

    I don't buy that the greendeal is a utopian answer to all our problems.

    I also dont buy that the problems being addressed by its proposals are fictitious.

    The assumption of flawed character on the part of others, whether young, poor or anything else sounds like dissimulation to me.

    The comparative math being posted is the one saving criteria here to keep my interest. Its at least indicative of genuine intent.


  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,439 Senior Member
    edited March 2019 #119

    Math time.
    70k/year is 5833/mo, x.66 for net is 3850/mo after taxes.
    Current median home price in Colombus OH is 139200. - 20% is 111360.
    111360 on a 15 year fixed is 847.00 at 4.41%
    Thats median home prices, not starter home prices.
    Prop taxes and ins on that home wont put it over 1K/mo Lets call it 1200/mo including a sinking fund for repairs. Not half.

    If you "feel" like you couldnt buy a home, or you dont have the money to, then the problem isnt that you make to little or the costs are to much.
    Correcting the math, take home pay was ~2600/month after paying for insurance and putting away money in 401k so I'm not a pauper depending only on SS when I retire. Homes were in the $130k-$140k range back in 2005 when I was looking (midst of "housing boom"). When factoring in insurance, taxes, PMI, and in some cases HOA dues and full mortgage payment was between $1200 and $1300/month. 

    PS good luck finding a home in Columbus these days that's not in a ghetto or falling apart for $140k.
    Take home pay was...... You dont get to use 2000 numbers for pay and 2019 numbers for housing. 139200 IS the median price for a home. https://www.zillow.com/oh/home-values/

    With 20% down you dont pay PMI and I stated that currently the cost would be 1200.00.

    Homes in a HOA are not starter homes. They might be a wanna start in home, but that is part of the problem. Perception of dads actualexpenses vs todays expectations.

    33% off your gross pay will pretty well cover your withholding, almost 15% into your 401K, and health insurance @ 70K +-/year.

    You are the one drawing the comparison and saying that it isnt possible.




    There are 3 picked arbitrarily, 2 were close to Columbus. 245 homes between 100 and 150K

    I think it is a false perception that a person cannot live as well as their parents. It is the fact that people choose to like better than what their parents did at the same age. Much better in many ways.

    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,493 Senior Member
    Maybe if they paid more, higher quality candidates would apply?
    That is not the issue at all.  A first year apprentice that works a steady 40 hour week all year will gross right around $40k for that first year.  Around where I live that is some darn good pay for a person with potentially no skill in the work field at all.  Its almost as much as I made in my best year as a mechanic before I left that career for skilled trades.  When I stared my current career the apprentice wages (journeyman wages as well) were a good bit lower than they are now.  Paying more is not the solution to having better apprentices and eventual journeyman.  They tried that by raising the starting percentage wage for apprentices and it has actually attracted more of the people only in it to collect a paycheck while doing as little as possible.  Due to some local city requirements and quotas a lot of people that are high quality can not get into the program.  We have people that could go to the hall and be a journeyman that want to go through our apprenticeship, but the school will not accept for various reasons.  None of which have to do with their skills or abilities.  That is a different topic though.

    Higher base pay is not always the answer.
  • RugerFanRugerFan Senior Member Posts: 2,370 Senior Member
    edited March 2019 #121
    2 yrs ago I spoke to an engineer at a MTD factory that makes lawnmowers and such. They can't find or keep robotics techs. He said no one wants to work. I spoke last year  to the head of HR for a local furniture mfg that has over 1k employees. He can't find people who will work. 
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