8x57 Mauser - Any experience?

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Replies

  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,429 Senior Member
    edited March 3 #92

    Speaking of the Eddystone and P-14 rifles, I've got one of each, sadly, both sporterized.  The Eddystone is in its original .30-06 chambering, but the P-14 has been rechambered- - - -to 300 H&H!  The pawn shop where I got it had it mislabeled as .300 Win Mag, but those rounds wouldn't chamber.  A quick chamber casting told the tale!  I'm going to slug the bore on that one to see if I need to run .308 or .311 bullets.  Sometimes a P-14 bolt is used with a 1917 barrel to get the big .303 bolt face needed for a belted magnum cartridge, and the .308 bore size.    

    Jerry


    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • das68das68 Posts: 661 Senior Member
    edited March 3 #93
    Teach said:

    Be aware that the Enfield has four different lengths of bolt nose assemblies available to correct headspace problems.  Since the bolt locks into the rear of the receiver, the receiver has a tendency to stretch and make the headspace unsafe.  Be sure to do a little checking with Go/NOGO/FIELD gauges before shooting it.

    Jerry

        



    just a bit of input from some old correspondence.

    edited for space and relevance


    Test showed that the No1 action using its rimmed cartridge has higher integrity and proof load than its Mauser contemporaries (P14, G98, '03) using their rimless cartridges - No1 more than 30 tons, Mausers 20-something.

    (Text Book of Small Arms)

    I've never heard of a verifiable account of a catastrophic failure in a Lee Enfield using normal ammo, either from MoD or Proof House sources, or from the international collecting & historical community.

    There is a lot of ignorant internet myth, SAAMI gauges and normal wear encountered in any rifle, but no inherent "problem" based on a statistical sample of c.17 million rifles....

    SAAMI .303 "no go" is .067". The correct design headspace gauge to use is the Commonwealth "Field" of .074" (war use tolerance allowed up to 0.84"). Not surprising that some perfectly in-spec rifles "fail" a SAAMI gauge, as the correct minimum "go" is 0.64".

    Thus SAAMI spec was wrong from the outset, and now some US manufacturers make cases with thin rims that would not pass a standard military quality check if that ammo were being procured today.

    In Europe and most of the world, shoooters are best to ignore SAAMI and stick with the real headspace specs, as all surplus and most modern and recent production (HXP, PMP, Privi, Wolf, S&B, PPU, Kynoch, etc) use the normal military dimensions.

    In US you have the silly situation that two specs of ammo are in circulation, but the majority of shooters don't understand the situation. This has spawned a vast internet headspace confusion, and a scramble for longer boltheads to "tighten up" headspace. The ironic thing is that most of these "headspace tighten-ers" are probably actually (a) making an in-spec rifle out of spec (most have no idea about fitting a bolthead correctly); (b) actually accelerating wear on their rifle by then having over-tight headspace when they come to use military-spec ammunition.

    The other factor in this is that over-generous head space has no real effect other than possibly to shorten the life of poor quality (thin) brass. Ergo, its best to stick with the specification that was designed into the weapons system.

    Privi, Wolf, S&B, PPU, Kynoch, are all commercial ammunition in common circulation in US and Europe - and they are mil spec. I have no idea of market share figures, but probably only Winchester and Remington make .303 British to SAAMI spec - thus only a relatively small percentage of the ammo in circulation, and then mostly only in the US.


    BTW, I'm not at all convinced that asymmetric bearing lugs (of an unmodified bolt) has any deleterious effect in an Enfield, and is not the primary cause of some of these small lug failures. In fact I'm sure that attempting to lap in a bolt - as enthusiastically described on user forums - probably only serves to damage the bolt itself.

    My reasoning is that the Enfield engineers probably allowed for the action body to distort under firing, and for the bolt to move in several axis - thus possibly allowing the lugs to find a seat during the firing cycle. I'm guessing that at least a third to a half of all Enfields (millions therefore) have mismatched bolts, and I'm absolutely sure that virtually none of those replacement bolts outside service were lapped or fitted. Ergo, if asymmetric bearing surfaces were a cause of lug failure, then there should be - statistically - hundreds of thousands of such cases.

    Its worth noting that, with the first generations of Metfords and Long Lees, the Army seems to have had little focus on keeping rifles and bolts together - most of them appear to had their bolts mixed up whilst in service. This again might indicate that the factory hadn't emphasised this as a necessary precaution.

     





    Teach said:

      Since the bolt locks into the rear of the receiver, the receiver has a tendency to stretch and make the headspace unsafe.

    Jerry

        



    Infantry & Small Arms School Corps Weapons Collection
    Warminster

    Here is a genuine documented set of photos of the true SMLE where the shooter was hit by an AP round. The core went down the barrel leaving the envelope behind in the muzzle, detonated the round in the chamber and blew it up. He was only shaken.













    headspace unsafe from what?  ;)



    History is littered with wars which everybody knew would never happen.

    Enoch Powell

  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,043 Senior Member
    Teach said:

    Speaking of the Eddystone and P-14 rifles, I've got one of each, sadly, both sporterized. . . 

    If I had Bill Gates / Elon Musk level funding, my corporate mission would be to BRING THAT ACTION BACK and put the magnum Mausers in their place.  It's just too good a mechanism for us to only have increasingly irreplaceable 100 year old surplus to work with.  For the moment anyway, the Bubbas of the 1950's have left us a lot of raw material.

    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    edited March 4 #95
    My new to me (Long Branch)  .303 was tumbling bullets, closer examination showed several inches of rifling worn smooth at the muzzle end.

    I found a joint that was selling bbls in good shape for 50 bucks I think it was. When it arrived the bbl looked great, unfortunately it was attached to part of a receiver that had been de-milled.

    My gunsmith said he caught two kinds of hell getting the bbls separated from the receivers, especially from the rifle. 

    Shoots great and no tumbling now.

    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,855 Senior Member
    I love British Enfields. Been in love with em since I was a kid. They aren't something I want to sporterize or but to shoot and fondle. I've always wanted a British Enfield and more especially a Mark 4 Number 1.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,855 Senior Member
    Bigslug said:
    Teach said:

    Speaking of the Eddystone and P-14 rifles, I've got one of each, sadly, both sporterized. . . 

    If I had Bill Gates / Elon Musk level funding, my corporate mission would be to BRING THAT ACTION BACK and put the magnum Mausers in their place.  It's just too good a mechanism for us to only have increasingly irreplaceable 100 year old surplus to work with.  For the moment anyway, the Bubbas of the 1950's have left us a lot of raw material.

     I have a friend whose dad bought a 1917 barreled action of some flavor and had a local gun smith sporterize it. It is NO Bubba, believe me. It's a fine rifle. However, he left it cock on closing. A few years back his dad took it to Victoria to a LGS and traded it along with a couple hundred in cash for some hand gun. His dad casually mentioned that to him and he went stupid! He got in his car and drove to that gun store and bougth the rifle back. He killed his only white tail buck with that rifle in high school. It meant a lot to him. His dad wasn't a big hunter and he didn't have a deep emotional connection to the rifle. But his son, my friend loved that rifle. I do too. Every time I go to his house and we start show and tell with guns I ask to look at that rifle and I love to fondle it. It looks good and shoots good. What's not to love?
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,248 Senior Member
    I bought a P 14 at a gunshow on Sunday about 25 years ago.  The bore was very good, but the stock was grease filled.  I took it home for $60, sprayed the stock with Easy Off oven cleaner, and it cleaned up fine, although still a little oily.  It was an Eddystone, shot to the left until I whacked the barrel a time or two.  They're heavy guns, but strong.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 26,106 Senior Member
    Big Chief said:
    My new to me (Long Branch)  .303 was tumbling bullets, closer examination showed several inches of rifling worn smooth at the muzzle end.

    I found a joint that was selling bbls in good shape for 50 bucks I think it was. When it arrived the bbl looked great, unfortunately it was attached to part of a receiver that had been de-milled.

    My gunsmith said he caught two kinds of hell getting the bbls separated from the receivers, especially from the rifle. 

    Shoots great and no tumbling now.

    I feel his pain. The last one I took the barrel off of didn't require that cut in front of the receiver. The Enfield barrel has a flat on top. I made a barrel clamp for my wrench to match the contour of the barrel, and heated the whole front ring and barrel breech end with a heat gun and put lots of penetrating oil in the thread area. Only took a 4 foot cheater bar on my barrel wrench to make it turn loose.

    I need to get new pads for the jungle carbines. The ones on them are petrified and non functional. May have to make a couple, as the surplus ones, if you can find them, are petrified, too. They are fun to shoot, but need some recoil mitigation!
    If the U.S. Congress was put in charge of the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in under six months.



  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,248 Senior Member

    About 25 years ago, I read an article in Shotgun News (remember that?) about Australian shooting practices.  It was excellent from a non-conformist view.  One thing I remember from the article is one shooter, with milsurp ammo, got case separation on ever shot the headspace was so great.  The other thing was a guy who sawed off the barrel and screwed a .22 Hornet barrel into it.  I can't remember or it didn't say what about the bolt head.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • das68das68 Posts: 661 Senior Member
    edited March 5 #101
    Gene L said:

    About 25 years ago, I read an article in Shotgun News (remember that?) about Australian shooting practices.  It was excellent from a non-conformist view.  One thing I remember from the article is one shooter, with milsurp ammo, got case separation on ever shot the headspace was so great.  The other thing was a guy who sawed off the barrel and screwed a .22 Hornet barrel into it.  I can't remember or it didn't say what about the bolt head.


    25 years ago one shooter  reported headspace problems but no kaboom

    with a estimated production of over 17 million rifles

    from the 1890's to present day

    the vast majority worked hard

    about that headspace safety concern   :|

    documented examples of a LE rifle that had failed in a big way under normal use, or that had

    not been tampered with in some way are thin.

     



    no bolt reworking  for the 22 hornet

    would be single shot though

    .22 Hornet "K"


    1:08

     odd No.4 bolt used

    2:25 

    bolt unmodified for hornet














    History is littered with wars which everybody knew would never happen.

    Enoch Powell

  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,429 Senior Member
    Weren't Brit rifles and bolts routinely stored separately when not in actual combat situations because officers were paranoid about getting ambushed by their own troops?  Thar must have resulted in a lot of mixing of parts when they were reassembled.  When the German troops surrendered, it was also a matter of policy to remove the bolts from the rifles they gave up, for the same reason.
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,248 Senior Member
    Never heard that about British rifles.  Follow-up?
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
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