Reg Flag laws

GilaGila Posts: 978 Senior Member
The Second Amendment Foundation has filed suit in California over this law, and it's important to follow, because Bloomberg and his ilk are attempting to pass these laws in every state.

http://www.gopusa.com/second-amendment-foundation-sues-over-mental-health-holds-and-suspension-of-gun-rights/

No good deed goes unpunished...

Replies

  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,727 Senior Member
    Those laws are unjust on their face. Without first being charged with some crime it forces someone to prove their innocence. That is not how law is enforced in the U.S. And any cop that 'just follows orders' has wiped their brown starfish with both their oath and the Constitution. THAT is MY opinion on the matter and not subject to change, ever.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 3,231 Senior Member
    We're going to get one here.
    (My prediction)
    https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/hb18-1436
    What Tennmike said is right and its what struck me about the law. Some county sheriffs departments have gone on record as refusing to enforce it.

    It reminds me of accused heretics attempting to defend themselves against a 17th century church. The opportunity for disgruntled exspouces, inlaws, outlaws, neighbours, coworkers or almost anyone seeking malicious harm on each other is glarring.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,071 Senior Member
    Yep, classic American witch hunt tactics. We're good at them, we always have been.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,574 Senior Member
    I'll be that guy. I'm not against them under the following conditions:

    1) There are strong due process protections 
    2) A high burden of proof showing a high risk of violence to self or others (not just "he yelled at me", etc.)
    3) limited duration with automatic return of all firearms after a specified period of time 

    Again, I know this is unpopular, but there are not many current laws that allow us to catch and jail someone before they actually commit a violent act, despite the fact that there are often many red flags prior to them committing the violent act. In fact jailing them usually isn't appropriate. But if we can legally remove the most likely means of them committing the act that is a step in the right direction. 

    I'm open to having my mind changed. It seems a number of states have passed these laws. The states are our laboratories of our democracy. If I see this start to be widely abused then I will start to have a problem with it, but as of now I haven't seen a lot of major issues so far. 
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,829 Senior Member
    edited February 28 #6
    Within days of Maryland's Red Flag Law being enacted a 61 year old man ends up dead because his sister called in a "possible threat" and the cops showed up to confiscate his guns without due process

    https://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2018/11/05/fatal-officer-involved-shooting-in-anne-arundel-county/

    Justify that! Tell me how this is remotely OK...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • FFLshooterFFLshooter Member Posts: 932 Senior Member
    edited February 28 #7
    Its a shame he didn’t take the two with him. I have no tolerance for tyrants.
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,574 Senior Member
    edited February 28 #8
    Jayhawker said:
    Within days of Maryland's Red Flag Law being enacted a 61 year old man ends up dead because his sister called in a "possible threat" and the cops showed up to confiscate his guns without due process

    https://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2018/11/05/fatal-officer-involved-shooting-in-anne-arundel-county/

    Justify that! Tell me how this is remotely OK...
    Suicide by cop. Guy picked up a gun he had already put down when confronted by cops and fired it when a cop tried to take it from him. Regardless of the purpose of their visit cops would have killed that guy based on his actions 98 out of 100 times and the 2 are only because the responding officers failed their quals. 

    And yes Due process exists. In Maryland a judge must issue the order upon petition from only a small group of people close to the person or a policeman or mental health professional. There is a due process procedure to appeal the ruling, and anyone caught lying or filing a false claim can be prosecuted for perjury. 

    https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/maryland/5-things-to-know-marylands-red-flag-gun-law/65-598387522

    Here's some more data regarding due process. 114 orders were petitioned for in MD. 70 temporary orders were issued (guns temporarily removed for investigation/court hearing), only 36 final orders were approved. Sounds like a lot of due process taking place actually. Even in those 36 cases, guns can only be held for one year. 

    https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-red-flag-law-requests-20181114-story.html
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 8,525 Senior Member
    Alfa you really truly and I wonder purposely grossly under described what happened. What time did this happen you left out. When he saw cops he put it down, when told they were taking his weapons , he picked it up and told them no you cant walk in here and found himself shot by a cop. He was in his home, they came early in the morning and it turned out to be a malicious accusation because an argument.   You must state all the facts
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,829 Senior Member
    Utter Bovine Crap!   That particular law, those that made it law and the cops created, I repeat, created the situation that got this guy killed.  Show up unannounced, tell him they are there to take his firearms? Did they not think how easily that situation could go sideways?
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,574 Senior Member
    edited March 1 #11
    We can go back and forth like the last time. Bottom line you pick up a gun in the presence of a cop, no matter what the reason you're going to get shot. Had he not committed suicide by cop he would have quickly had a day in court and been able to recover his guns within a week or two if it really was BS. This guy took "from my cold dead hands" a little too seriously.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 8,525 Senior Member
    Alfa there is no back and forth.
    I bet you read the details a while back when it happened just like the rest of us.  That was not suicide by cop. The man picked up what was his, in his home, and was as close as you can come to murdered by two cops as you can get.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,829 Senior Member
    What he doesn't grasp is that the cops had no business being there in the first place.

    I have often wondered what the sister felt when she realized she was culpable in her brothers murder...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 3,231 Senior Member
    edited March 1 #14
    I'd like to know what mouth breathing squirrel brain administrator outlines the procedural SOP for enforcement.

    What in God's name is wrong with establishing contact for arranging an interview at the barracks????

    If inference of incompetence is delivered second hand to authorities as hear say, whats the rush????

    The procedure I see as proper would avoid alot of danger for everyone involved. It makes me suspicious of Police department administration in general.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,727 Senior Member
    Alpha fails to see the guilty until you prove yourself innocent upside down law. It's the same kind of thing with the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem witch trials. It is NOT the job of the accused to prove innocence; it is the job of the courts and the prosecutor to prove guilt before someone is deprived of life, liberty, or property. Alpha doesn't get that and probably never will.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,563 Senior Member
    The Salem witch trials had due process. Tie up the accused. Throw them in the pond. If they drowned they were innocent. If they floated they were guilty and immediately hung. The only thing required for a domestic violence restraining order to be granted is the statement: "I'm afraid of him"! Of course the statement: "I'm afraid of her" will result in hysterical laughter!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,727 Senior Member
    Red Flag laws are anathema to the rule of law and the presumption of "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law" that our laws are based on. Guilty until proven innocent is ridiculous on its face; it forces the accused to prove a negative.
    Anyway, Red Flag laws are contrary to the 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendment protections of the Constitution. Any judge that issues a confiscation order on the word of one person without the trial part thing to get BOTH sides of the issue resolved in court is nothing but a filthy little wanna be dictator, in my eyes. And any cop that carries out such an order is only fit company for hyenas, in MY opinion. Has to do with that oath thing and 'just following orders'.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,563 Senior Member
    edited March 2 #18
    This BS is of course violating the Constitution of the United States of America. I swore the oath 5 times when I re-enlisted. It was not required but important to me. I requested it and was never denied. 'All enemies foreign and domestic'. This BS is a violation of the Constitution by domestic enemies. It needs to be stopped now. A citizen has the right to a trial by a jury of their peers concerning Constitutional and all "crimes" not a judge. Q: What do you call a lawyer with an IQ less than 50? A: Your honor.
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