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Which .22 LR round for self defense?

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  • SirGeorgeKillianSirGeorgeKillian Senior Member Sovereign SCPosts: 5,463 Senior Member
    .223sniper wrote: »
    i suggest the Judge revolver don't need to aim for the family jewels with a .410 handgun.

    If I had a choice of what to protect myself and my family with, the Judge would be at the bottom of the list with the .22...
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
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    I'm in love with a Glock
  • bronx2snellvillebronx2snellville New Member Norcross, GAPosts: 3 New Member
    This is where I disagree with you Eric and feel I'm right. Unless you're shooting "point blank" 22LR is the least suitable ammo choice for a head shot as the skull will be difficult to penetrate. Whereas center mass gives one the best chance to down their opponent esp. w/a STINGER or similar hollow point/personal defense 22LR round. As the bullet bounces after hitting bone it will cause severe if not fatal internal bleeding/damage.
    Live To Ride...Ride To Live
    Kenny "SureShift"
  • ericbericb Banned Helena, MTPosts: 392 Member
    This is where I disagree with you Eric and feel I'm right. Unless you're shooting "point blank" 22LR is the least suitable ammo choice for a head shot as the skull will be difficult to penetrate. Whereas center mass gives one the best chance to down their opponent esp. w/a STINGER or similar hollow point/personal defense 22LR round. As the bullet bounces after hitting bone it will cause severe if not fatal internal bleeding/damage.

    a 31 gr .22hp, after hitting thick bone such as a rib or sternum will probably come apart, failing to penetrate vitals. Basically causing a bad flesh wound. But anyway, I am still wondering about where you got the sage info that the stinger was designed for SD.
  • EliEli Senior Member Attalla, Alabama.Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    This is where I disagree with you Eric and feel I'm right. Unless you're shooting "point blank" 22LR is the least suitable ammo choice for a head shot as the skull will be difficult to penetrate. Whereas center mass gives one the best chance to down their opponent esp. w/a STINGER or similar hollow point/personal defense 22LR round. As the bullet bounces after hitting bone it will cause severe if not fatal internal bleeding/damage.


    Some points.

    1.....Another member here (that most hold in high regard), has told of shooting a squirrel with a stinger, and the round detonating on the outside of the squirrel's shoulder. I've personally seen them powder on a thick soup can........sorry, but hitting bone with a stinger is going to be like slinging a christmas ornament into a brick wall, that things going to shatter into a million pieces.

    2.....I don't agree at all with the ".22s bounce around inside the body" theory.....while yes, I'm sure that it has happened, I don't believe that it is a common occurrence, especially not as common as most mall-ninjas/books/movies make it out to be.

    3.....There's no such thing as a .22 rimfire that's designed as an effective self defense round.

    4.....In a SD situation, you want to stop the attack as soon as freakin possible. A crackhead with a bread knife can cut you all to pieces between the time you shoot him and he bleeds out.....especially with something as small as a .22 rimfire. Whether or not you kill the attacker should be the last thing on your mind. Punching somebody in the face with the muzzle of a ruger semi-auto and squeezing the trigger ten times is going to STOP an attack a whole heck of a lot faster than waiting for them to bleed out.
  • BPsniperBPsniper Banned Posts: 1,961 Senior Member
    An acquaintance of mine lost a daughter to a .22 lr back in the eighties. Seems she was caught up on the bad side of drugs and owed money to the wrong person. A knock at her door revealed a flower delivery man. Upon opening the door, she was shot several times in the head and killed.

    Now, I have no idea what bullet was used but whatever it was worked. The .22 lr is undoubtedly NOT the preferred choice as a defensive round. I would not choose to carry one for defense on purpose. Were it an only choice weapon, I'm hoping on close proximity and I'm going for the head.
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Pensacola, FLPosts: 10,838 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    "Feelings, nothing more than.....feelings."


    There is no .22 LR ammo designed for self defense. However, I have been wrong before. So I would be most appreciative if you could point me in the direction of some.:up:

    IIRC The 'Devestator' ammo Hinkley used in his attempt at Reagan, were marketed as PD rounds. Didn't they quarantee a BG would be killed if you hit him in the chest???

    To tired to Google it now....
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • BPsniperBPsniper Banned Posts: 1,961 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    IIRC The 'Devestator' ammo Hinkley used in his attempt at Reagan, were marketed as PD rounds. Didn't they quarantee a BG would be killed if you hit him in the chest???

    To tired to Google it now....

    Guess it's a good thing Reagan was a good guy since he got hit in the chest. :tooth:
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Pensacola, FLPosts: 10,838 Senior Member
    .223sniper wrote: »
    I assumed that because a .22 is used it was to stop, not mutilate. If your going for full out Russian on them i suggest the Judge revolver don't need to aim for the family jewels with a .410 handgun.

    Say what you will about Taurus quality, but they sure make a darn good commercial...
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,709 Senior Member
    Elaborating on Eli's post a little bit. . .

    The use of the .22LR against felons is a similar situation to use of a man-portable hunting rifle against African big game. Even when dealing with the likes of .416 Rigbys and .458 Lotts, when you get right down to it, you're putting a VERY small projectile into a VERY large animal.

    One does not commonly hunt elephant, rhinoceros, and Cape buffalo with expanding bullets. There are two reasons for this - (1.) the energy used up in expansion takes away penetration, and failure to reach vital nerves, major blood pathways equals, or break weight-bearing bones equals failure to stop the critter; (2.) expansion or fragmentation can often take the bullet off the path you aimed it along. There may be random fragments tumbling around in search of a vital organ, but that's the point - IT'S RANDOM! A deeply penetrating solid will tend to continue along the path it was launched, whether it intersects a fight-stopping bit of tissue or not will be more down to how well the weapon was aimed.

    If you're looking to strike oil, don't drill with a crooked bit.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • BPsniperBPsniper Banned Posts: 1,961 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    Say what you will about Taurus quality, but they sure make a darn good commercial...

    Yep. Just shows what good marketing can do with gullible people. :jester:
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Pensacola, FLPosts: 10,838 Senior Member
    BPsniper wrote: »
    Yep. Just shows what good marketing can do with gullible people. :jester:

    You mean a human head won't come apart like a watermelon when shot with a .410?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfC7htSAPeE&feature=player_embedded


    (bet they used .45's on the watermelons)
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • justin10mmjustin10mm Senior Member Posts: 688 Senior Member
    If you still have doubts about the .22 long rifle's lethality against humans you should take the time and listen to the story this guy has to tell.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olW-ND4ioL4
  • ericbericb Banned Helena, MTPosts: 392 Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    You mean a human head won't come apart like a watermelon when shot with a .410?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfC7htSAPeE&feature=player_embedded


    (bet they used .45's on the watermelons)

    look closely at the watermelon exploding at about 30 seconds into the video. It was obviously scored to aid coming apart. The sections are practically symetrical at the top and bottom. Also, is the side shown of the video the exit? If so, even more obvious that the melon was cut beforehand.

  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Pensacola, FLPosts: 10,838 Senior Member
    I tried to find a pic of the original Judge commercial with the Shoot-n-see targets shot from inside a car. Looking at the target would give you the impression a BG would have a hole in him you could toss a softball thru......... When you consider that even the powder will take the black off of a SHoot-n-see target and the biggest hole is from the shot cup..... not so impressive
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • gunrunner428gunrunner428 Senior Member Posts: 1,018 Senior Member
    justin10mm wrote: »
    If you still have doubts about the .22 long rifle's lethality against humans you should take the time and listen to the story this guy has to tell.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olW-ND4ioL4

    Kinda makes the point for the other side, doesn't it? The victim of the shooting survived, although he DOES acknowledge that the rapid response by neighbors and the close proximity of an emergency room had a lot to do with that.

    Yes, many have died from .22 gunshot wounds. But it's not a STOPPER, under most circumstances. Too many variables, and too many factors to predictably rely on it to save your own life. The attacker might die, after an hour or two, but he'd be far too likely to keep on going with his original intent for my tastes.

    If I had to, I wouldn't turn down a .22 to defend myself, but I'd also recognize the dice-roll the round would offer me and not stop shooting until the bad guy stopped his actions.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    If you fire a .22 LR at a potential attacker:

    1. I doubt the average person will know what caliber it was

    2. Even if you miss, most normal people will not stick around to get shot at (again).

    3. Most people do not like getting shot, and will not stick around remarking, its ok, it is only a .22 LR

    4. Between 6-10 rounds of .22 LR will really hurt and if not fatal, will make most people want to not stick around for additional helpings.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • jgunpilotjgunpilot Member LouisianaPosts: 211 Member
    A couple of musings after reading this post:

    1) If the Mossad pulled apart .22 rounds, poured power out, then reassembled them, they're **** (which they are not). To expect that round to function in a semi-auto pistol or to provide some advantage is ridiculous. It's already a .22. leave it alone. Pouring power out of any round does not necessarily make it less powerful. It makes it more likely to malfunction or blow up. Besides, how do you reassemble a .22 rimfire round?

    2) If you want a self defense gun, get something that starts with a "4," not a .22.

    3) .22 bullets don't "bounce around inside the skull." They have no magic properties. They penetrate 8-10 inches of ballistic gelatin, then stop. They penetrate 8 half inch pine boards, then stop. They might penetrate a skull if you hit it in a thin spot at a 90 degree angle, but once in they will not do anything special except stop in a few inches at the opposite side or sooner.

    4) Hollow points or high velocity ammo is not "unethical" in a self defense situation. They might not even be a good choice of ammo over regular stuff. Hollow points might not penetrate heavy clothing. High velocity ammo might be speedy due to a light weight bullet. Breaking in to a persons home at night is unethical.

    5) No self defense shooting is to wound or maim. It's to stop an attack. If the stop is lethal, that's OK, the right guy got killed.
    "Remember, the state appointed psychiatrist is not your friend." - Jack Handey®
  • jgunpilotjgunpilot Member LouisianaPosts: 211 Member
    Will bullets take the path of least resistance when they hit flesh and bone? Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. Will a .22 bullet go all the way to the back of a skull, rebound to the front of the skull, ricochet to the back of the skull, etc. (as many knowingly imply), no.
    "Remember, the state appointed psychiatrist is not your friend." - Jack Handey®
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Under a logPosts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Eli wrote: »
    Some points.

    4.....In a SD situation, you want to stop the attack as soon as freakin possible. A crackhead with a bread knife can cut you all to pieces between the time you shoot him and he bleeds out.....especially with something as small as a .22 rimfire. Whether or not you kill the attacker should be the last thing on your mind. Punching somebody in the face with the muzzle of a ruger semi-auto and squeezing the trigger ten times is going to STOP an attack a whole heck of a lot faster than waiting for them to bleed out.

    Eli hit on something here. The skull has varying bone thickness. However, it has two holes in it that would ease the bullet's passage to the good stuff. The eye sockets have holes through which the optic nerves pass. The sockets are rounded and would tend to funnel the bullet to the holes. If you're going for multiple head shots with a .22 rimfire, the eyes have the direct path to the brain.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • jgunpilotjgunpilot Member LouisianaPosts: 211 Member
    A lot of failed suicides have found that out the hard way. The last thing you want to do is stick a 12 gauge under your chin if you really want to join your ancestors. The eye socket is the High Speed Super Highway to the reptilian stem of the brain.
    "Remember, the state appointed psychiatrist is not your friend." - Jack Handey®
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    From what I have seen firsthand, the folks that stuck the muzzle of a shotgun under their chin did not live very long.
    My cousin James for one, and that was one very messy scene, something that makes it hard for me to close my eyes sometimes.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • 22fanatic22fanatic New Member Posts: 1 New Member
    The Aguila Super Max is the fastest 22lr on the market at 1750 out of an 18" barrel. I've shot them through a 2" phone book and the exit hole is the size of a quarter. They function fine in my P-22 and my Mark II. I carry a Charter Arms Pathfinder 22 WMR . If the bullet doesn't kill them the noise will probably scare them to death.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    " If the bullet doesn't kill them the noise will probably scare them to death."

    Well well......:uhm:
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • bruchibruchi Senior Member Posts: 2,581 Senior Member
    jgunpilot wrote: »
    A couple of musings after reading this post:

    1) If the Mossad pulled apart .22 rounds, poured power out, then reassembled them, they're **** (which they are not). To expect that round to function in a semi-auto pistol or to provide some advantage is ridiculous. It's already a .22. leave it alone. Pouring power out of any round does not necessarily make it less powerful. It makes it more likely to malfunction or blow up. Besides, how do you reassemble a .22 rimfire round?


    Perhaps read the entire thing before postulating...

    "In cases to eliminate the need of a silencer they would take the bullet off, lose some of the powder and replaced the bullet, this guns in some cases where modified to work with a lower charge.''


    Then ammo does not grow in trees, it is manufactured from various components...
    If this post is non welcomed, I can always give you a recipe for making "tostones".
  • jgunpilotjgunpilot Member LouisianaPosts: 211 Member
    I did read the entire post before I "postulated." I'm not aware of any way to reload a rimfire case and achieve a crimp. I'm not aware of why anyone would need less than .22 LR for combat.

    The Mossad decided in the '50s that they would use .22 LR for assassinations in urban settings because bystanders didn't seem to associate the noise with gunfire.

    I'm amazed more people didn't say something about the ridiculous notion of "pouring powder out" of any loaded round to achieve lower power, and specifically how unworkable that is with a .22.

    Who sells reloading dies for .22 LR anyway? Does Midway?

    Here's a crazy notion, instead of modifying a .22 LR pistol so you can "pour powder out," why not buy a pistol that shoots .22 Shorts?
    "Remember, the state appointed psychiatrist is not your friend." - Jack Handey®
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Are not CB rounds essentially the same thing ?
    Why not use sub-sonic rounds and a suppressor ?
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • tv_racin_fantv_racin_fan Senior Member Confusion, JawjaPosts: 661 Senior Member
    Back in the day CB's and subsonic rounds were not available to my knowledge. May well be they were initiated with or by the Mossad.

    In any event while I don't have any 22lr dies and they are not for sale for the general public if I wanted some they could be easily made.
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Somewhere north of MozambiquePosts: 6,637 Senior Member
    Back in the day CB's and subsonic rounds were not available to my knowledge. May well be they were initiated with or by the Mossad.

    In any event while I don't have any 22lr dies and they are not for sale for the general public if I wanted some they could be easily made.

    If, by "back in the day" you meant before 1845, you would be right. If you meant during the 1970s, well...not so much. The following is an exerpt from "A Brief History on .22 Rimfire Ammo" by Chuck Hawks.

    The BB Cap was the first type of rimfire ammunition. BB stands for "bullet breech." It was invented in France around 1845, designed for the Flobert indoor target rifle. BB Caps were designed for shooting gallery use and are seldom encountered these days, as shooting galleries are now considered politically incorrect by socialists, tort lawyers, girly men, and liberal politicians.

    The BB Cap fires a round lead projectile (ball) powered only by the priming compound in the rim of the case, which is very short as no powder is used. The case is just there to hold the priming compound and bullet together.

    BB Caps were made in Europe and America until fairly recently. The last I saw were made in Germany by RWS who, I believe, still loads them today.

    The successor to the BB Cap was the CB Cap. "CB" stands for "Conical Bullet." The CB cap uses a 29 grain round nose lead bullet and a tiny pinch of powder. This is also shooting gallery ammunition. CCI produces modern CB Cap loads in .22 Short and .22 Long cases (firearms chambered for the Long Rifle cartridge being far more common today) for gallery and indoor practice use. The MV of either is 710 fps.

    The common .22 Short cartridge dates from 1857. It is the oldest cartridge still being loaded today. It was the first American metallic cartridge, introduced in for the first S&W revolver, a pocket pistol developed for personal protection. It was popular during the American Civil War, carried as personal weapons by soldiers on both sides.


    Here is a link: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chuckhawks.com%2Fhistory_rimfire_ammo.htm&ei=azY2TpWnH4KTtwfdg7nqDA&usg=AFQjCNHSHHbOV5y4rX3oV0Jzp05yiHly9w
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • jgunpilotjgunpilot Member LouisianaPosts: 211 Member
    Sweet Mother of God, I give up.
    "Remember, the state appointed psychiatrist is not your friend." - Jack Handey®
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Living in a van, down by the river.Posts: 14,041 Senior Member
    I'd just like to see a reliable report of the Mossad removing powder. The only thing I've seen are a few online articles that all seem to harken back to the same info.
    I'm just here for snark.
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