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Guided hunts? Yea or Nay?

JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior MemberPosts: 7,745 Senior Member
In the thread on making a 688 yard shot on an elk with a .243, CPJ posted the following.
cpj wrote: »
No one should pay a large amount of money to a guide to kill an animal because they are too lazy to scout them.

I know that several of our members have made guided hunts, and probably others who haven't but would like to. I also suspect that there are those who share Chris' view on this.

As for me, I'm conflicted. I've never made a guided hunt, and doubt that I ever will. I'm not sure I would enjoy one knowing how much money it's costing me. Also, I get more satisfaction from taking a game animal 'on my own' than I would if someone guided me. At least I think I would.

OTOH, if you want to hunt an animal that is not available to you locally, or hunt an area that is too distant to allow you to do your own scouting, it seems like this is a very viable option. And, even if you pay a guide to take you out in an area close by, it's a good way to learn both the country and the game animal you are pursuing. I did this with a local fly fishing shop, twice, for the sole purpose of learning how to fly fish as well as learn more about the river that runs within a mile of my house.

I also realize that not all guided hunts are the same. I talked to a friend of mine a few months ago who told me about 4 local men who had made a recent elk hunt in Utah. All four got record book bulls, one of which ranks number 4 in the all time book. They also paid $80,000 a piece for the hunt. In my book, that's a far cry from paying $4k - $5k for a guided hunt on public land. In other words, not all guided hunts are the same.

So what do you think about this subject?

BTW, Chris, I'm really looking forward to you explanation of your remark.
Jerry

Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
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Replies

  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,757 Senior Member
    Depending on the species...If I were to draw a once in a lifetime permit for a Desert Bighorn, yeah, I'd probably hire a guide.
    The key to using a guide is for him to help you locate a good animal, period. ...the rest of it and I mean all of it is up to you... I'd never stand by and let a guide dress my kill for me...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,425 Senior Member
    For some animals in some places, it is the only way you can hunt that animal.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,387 Senior Member
    JerryBobCo wrote: »
    In the thread on making a 688 yard shot on an elk with a .243, CPJ posted the following.



    I know that several of our members have made guided hunts, and probably others who haven't but would like to. I also suspect that there are those who share Chris' view on this.

    As for me, I'm conflicted. I've never made a guided hunt, and doubt that I ever will. I'm not sure I would enjoy one knowing how much money it's costing me. Also, I get more satisfaction from taking a game animal 'on my own' than I would if someone guided me. At least I think I would.

    OTOH, if you want to hunt an animal that is not available to you locally, or hunt an area that is too distant to allow you to do your own scouting, it seems like this is a very viable option. And, even if you pay a guide to take you out in an area close by, it's a good way to learn both the country and the game animal you are pursuing. I did this with a local fly fishing shop, twice, for the sole purpose of learning how to fly fish as well as learn more about the river that runs within a mile of my house.

    I also realize that not all guided hunts are the same. I talked to a friend of mine a few months ago who told me about 4 local men who had made a recent elk hunt in Utah. All four got record book bulls, one of which ranks number 4 in the all time book. They also paid $80,000 a piece for the hunt. In my book, that's a far cry from paying $4k - $5k for a guided hunt on public land. In other words, not all guided hunts are the same.

    So what do you think about this subject?

    BTW, Chris, I'm really looking forward to you explanation of your remark.

    I partially agree with cpj, because many people can do the scouting and tracking themselves. But there are many that have no experience at this and when you lay down big bucks to go hunting out of your neck of the woods, you want success. No, I demand success. Also, it's like getting a fishing guide down here. Guides are very experienced and know where the fish will be on any given day. What many people do is get a guide for a few trips and learn the area. Then they can mostly take care of themselves. You can look at a guide as a teacher. You can learn enough from him to do it yourself eventually.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,387 Senior Member
    JerryBobCo wrote: »
    In the thread on making a 688 yard shot on an elk with a .243, CPJ posted the following.



    I know that several of our members have made guided hunts, and probably others who haven't but would like to. I also suspect that there are those who share Chris' view on this.

    As for me, I'm conflicted. I've never made a guided hunt, and doubt that I ever will. I'm not sure I would enjoy one knowing how much money it's costing me. Also, I get more satisfaction from taking a game animal 'on my own' than I would if someone guided me. At least I think I would.

    OTOH, if you want to hunt an animal that is not available to you locally, or hunt an area that is too distant to allow you to do your own scouting, it seems like this is a very viable option. And, even if you pay a guide to take you out in an area close by, it's a good way to learn both the country and the game animal you are pursuing. I did this with a local fly fishing shop, twice, for the sole purpose of learning how to fly fish as well as learn more about the river that runs within a mile of my house.

    I also realize that not all guided hunts are the same. I talked to a friend of mine a few months ago who told me about 4 local men who had made a recent elk hunt in Utah. All four got record book bulls, one of which ranks number 4 in the all time book. They also paid $80,000 a piece for the hunt. In my book, that's a far cry from paying $4k - $5k for a guided hunt on public land. In other words, not all guided hunts are the same.

    So what do you think about this subject?

    BTW, Chris, I'm really looking forward to you explanation of your remark.

    Actually maybe I misunderstood Chris's comment. I thought he was referring to having a guide set you up with a 600 yard shot. In that case who needs a guide? I could do that myself. I want a guide to set me up close and comfy, not in the next county.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    I don't see it as a problem. I wouldn't do it for a local animal, but I would if I were to go in an area where I don't have the time or money to scout the area myself. What you are paying for in a guide is the access to local private land and their expertise of the area. Some of them offer accommodations in the general hunt area so it is more than just getting you on game.

    No, I will not pay serious big bucks ($10k+) but my bear guide in Michigan's UP will run me something like $500 plus $50 a night for a place to sleep. I don't see why that is an issue. I don't have the time to take off a bunch of weekends to drive up there and scout. I don't have the time to go up there and forge a relationship with the private landowners. I don't own bear dogs either. Without a guide, my chances of ever bagging a bear would never materialize.

    Why would me hiring a guide make me lazy or less of a hunter?
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • 1965Jeff1965Jeff Senior Member Posts: 1,641 Senior Member
    Around here we have "Guides " charging out of state hunters anywhere from $2k- $5k to hunt on public land, not a great deal if you ask me.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,005 Senior Member
    For some animals in some places, it is the only way you can hunt that animal.

    Yep. Also, does that mean when you get off that plane in Capetown for your once in a lifetime dangerous game safari, they you are just going to walk into the savannah and try to stalk and find them yourself?

    Why would it be unethical to pay a guide in South Texas, but not in South Africa? I have been on hunting ranches that have fenced in areas that are mind bogglingly large. Larger than state parks. Yet, because it's several hundred acres under high fence and someone shows me the land, it is somehow not a 'real' hunt?

    There are no Mule Deer here. If I want to hunt a mule deer, I would need to move to New Mexico, learn the land, the habits, etc... and then shoot a deer? Or should I pay a guide?

    Teddy Roosevelt used native guides. I shouldn't?
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 7,745 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    There are no Mule Deer here. If I want to hunt a mule deer, I would need to move to New Mexico, learn the land, the habits, etc... and then shoot a deer?

    Or you could come out here and I'd show you a place or two to hunt.

    Also, you probably already know this, but there's a healthy population of desert mule deer in the Trans-Pecos area of west Texas. Check out Alpine and Marfa for starters.
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 7,745 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    I'd never stand by and let a guide dress my kill for me...

    This is one of the reasons I'd like to have a guide along. I've field dressed enough game to not feel less than a hunter if someone else does it for me. And, for really large game, say elk or larger, having a second set of hands really makes a huge difference.

    When I caped out the elk I shot last year, I started my circumference cut right behind the shoulder. Turns out I need to start about mid-body, or there's not enough cape for a good shoulder mount. A good guide would probably have known that.
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • QuinianQuinian Senior Member Posts: 707 Senior Member
    I never have and as a general rule I probably wouldn't just because of the cost and shooting something on a fence game reserve isn't really hunting to me. However, if I went to Africa or some such place to hunt I'd welcome any guide paid or not.
  • 1965Jeff1965Jeff Senior Member Posts: 1,641 Senior Member
    The thing is, unless you have a buddy who has used that particular service ,you don't really know what you are paying your hard earned cash for. I don't have a problem with people using a service per se , its that I've heard a lot of hard luck stories about Joes who were ripped off by guides who just wanted $$$. I don't expect a guide to lead an animal up in a halter up for execution either.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    JerryBobCo wrote: »
    Or you could come out here and I'd show you a place or two to hunt.
    ...And act as his guide. :wink:
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,634 Senior Member
    Some places guided hunts are the law.

    I say, if you have money to burn; go for it. It is good for the economy.


    What about charter boats and fishing?
    Shut up-----KAREN; OK Cynthia
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 7,745 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    ...And act as his guide. :wink:

    Ask Linefinder how that worked out for him last year.
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,973 Senior Member
    My pig hunt in central Florida was essentially a guided hunt. I could have bought a pig at market for $100 or for $200 - $300 each me and five of buddies hunted on defined land in preset tree stands with feeders, and my guide even dressed it out.

    I simply do not have the time to find my own lease, setup my own stand, etc. The $300 was a bargain and a half.

    My friends 16 yr boy old took a 400 lb boar on another hunt in the everglades, for about the same fees.

    No hunting license required, and I still have pork in the freezer.

    IMHO

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 20,851 Senior Member
    Depends on the situation. Local game? NOPE, not happening.
    I can see myself hiring a guide for my eventual "handgun" Antelope hunt though.(XP-100)
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,425 Senior Member
    The specialty pistols forum has a annual antelope hunt near Casper-Handguns only.
    Only cost is your tag, travel, accommodations, eats, etc.
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Depends on the situation. Local game? NOPE, not happening.
    I can see myself hiring a guide for my eventual "handgun" Antelope hunt though.(XP-100)
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • Six-GunSix-Gun Senior Member Posts: 8,120 Senior Member
    When I hunted Africa, I mostly had to pay a guide for his help. It would be tough scouting private property in another country. :)

    I honestly have no problem paying someone when you're hunting game in an area to which you simply don't have any access. You shouldn't have to say "I can't hunt that" because you don't have the means to scout the game. Do you think I would turn downthe chance at a big horn sheep becuase I don't live near them and refuse to pay a guide? Yeah, right. If I have the cash and the tag in hand, there's gonna be a sheep that better be running for its life.
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 6,763 Senior Member
    JerryBobCo wrote: »
    Ask Linefinder how that worked out for him last year.

    Got to see one of the two best shots I've ever seen on a big game animal. Got plenty of experience being a second set of hands. Found out how godawful big a big bull is when it's laying on the ground a couple miles and valleys away from the truck.

    Excellent guiding, IMO!

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 7,745 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Its about the hunt for me, I dont give a rats if I get the big (fill in the blank) Im WAY too independent for that. Besides, a hunt for ante-goats with two old goats (say you and Mike)that yields nothing but sore and stinky feet would top any record book animal out there IMHO.

    As leary as I am of saying this, that can be arranged. :)
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 7,745 Senior Member
    Linefinder wrote: »
    Got to see one of the two best shots I've ever seen on a big game animal. Got plenty of experience being a second set of hands. Found out how godawful big a big bull is when it's laying on the ground a couple miles and valleys away from the truck.

    Excellent guiding, IMO!

    Mike

    I'm really glad you see it that way, Mike. Missing two days of hunting due to my good fortune and coming home empty handed is a true sign of a good friend.

    Here's to many more such 'guided' hunts!
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • wookiewookie Member Posts: 128 Member
    Ive never been on a guided hunt. well I guess I have. but I have been the guide not the guided
  • DalebowDalebow Member Posts: 45 Member
    well the comment made by Chris was in response to me talking about shooting at an Elk at 668 yards with a 243. Using a guide is a personal choice. I use one when I got out west as I live in KY and cannot scout for rifle elk season prior to hunting elk season. Using an outfitter or guide assists a hunter in getting a chance at a animal. Using one has nothing to do with taking what some consider taking unethical shots at animals. If anyone truly thinks shooting at an animal that weighs close to 1000lbs with a 243 is ethical then nothing I can say will change their mind. But to me using a guide or outfitter is not even on the same planet as taking a shot like what was being discussed. I also didnt say it was wrong, I said it was wrong for me. People hunt in ways I would not do such as shooting at extreme ranges playing sniper.
    But I will support everyone's right to hunt in the manner they want. Seems like people get hot headed when someone questions their process or chosen ways to hunt. Adults challenge, question, learn, children get their feelings hurt and cannot have friendly debate.

    Yes I use an outfitter and a guide several times a year, I have been blessed with work and can afford it, some day I may not and cant, but using an outfitter only helps a hunter. Lazy I am not as I work about 80-90 hours a week so I can afford to hunt:cool2:
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,420 Senior Member
    To me, a guide would put me in a good spot to camp, point me in the right direction to hunt, and generally make sure I am not doing anything ignorant in an unfamiliar area. I would assume my participation in camp and hunting would be necessary for a successful hunt and therefore maximum effort from me would produce the best results. To that end, I would use a guide.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • wookiewookie Member Posts: 128 Member
    The only participation I really need from you in camp is put your dishes in the sink and have a nice time. Other than that in the field try your best to keep up but I will slow down and shoot straight. PLEASE be honest with me and yourself on your abilitys all of them. If you are not comfortable then I need to try a differant tactic. If your not comfortable with a 200 yard shot tell me. It is my job to get you comfortable. Main thing be honest with yourself.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,387 Senior Member
    Actually we do have mule deer, way out in West Texas, and there are probably 1 for ever 1,000 acres. So go figure. Even though it's in my home state, if I want to go mule deer hunting I'm getting a guide.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • shootershooter Senior Member Posts: 1,186 Senior Member
    My only guided hunt was a 1996 bear hunt in Manitoba, Canada. Bear are pretty scarce in my part of western Illinois and I'd never been to Manitoba before. My guide was also invaluable when it came to properly skinning out my bear so that my taxidermist could make an excellent bearskin rug mount for me.

    I have hunted deer in Missouri without a guide and antelope in Wyoming without a guide and been quite successful. We had access to private land in Missouri and the amount of public access land in Wyoming amazes me.

    Joe
    There's no such thing as having too much ammo, unless you're on fire or trying to swim!
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 7,745 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    Actually we do have mule deer, way out in West Texas, and there are probably 1 for ever 1,000 acres. So go figure. Even though it's in my home state, if I want to go mule deer hunting I'm getting a guide.

    In the trans-Pecos/Big Bend country, as well as some nearby areas, the population densities are much, much higher.

    Most of the mule deer population in Texas is west of the Pecos River, and a lot of that country couldn't support a grasshopper, much less a healthy deer population. However, there are areas that hold very good mule deer populations. The country around Alpine, Marfa and Ft. Davis is very good. I don't know what trespass fees are running now, but you might find it cheaper, and more productive, to look into those areas as opposed to traveling out of state and hiring a guide.

    I also know several people who have taken mulies from BLM land near Presidio, as well as seen them myself when hunting that area. In addition to that, my dad and I both took mulies from a place west of Van Horn.

    And, last but not least, there are isolated pockets of whitetails in that country. In the early 70s, my dad took a heavy horned 8 pt. from Pinto Canyon, which runs sort of north-south between Marfa and the border. I've always thought this his whitetail had to be a sub-species similar to the Coues deer, and should merit its own classification as far as Boone and Crockett classification, but I doubt it will ever happen. If it does, his deer may be a record book buck.

    Do yourself a favor and visit that country. You may be surprised at what you find.

    One last thing and I'll quit. I was driving from Colorado to west Texas last week to visit my mom. On the way down, I saw about 5-6 mulies in the northern edge of Amarillo. I was surprised to say the least.
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,788 Senior Member
    JerryBobCo wrote: »
    On the way down, I saw about 5-6 mulies in the northern edge of Amarillo. I was surprised to say the least.

    When I lived there, there were a few antelope near town, but you had to go north to the Canadian River to find deer, and most of that was big ranches that you couldn't go on. There weren't any pheasants there, either. Of course, that was all 40 years ago.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,387 Senior Member
    JerryBobCo wrote: »
    In the trans-Pecos/Big Bend country, as well as some nearby areas, the population densities are much, much higher.

    Most of the mule deer population in Texas is west of the Pecos River, and a lot of that country couldn't support a grasshopper, much less a healthy deer population. However, there are areas that hold very good mule deer populations. The country around Alpine, Marfa and Ft. Davis is very good. I don't know what trespass fees are running now, but you might find it cheaper, and more productive, to look into those areas as opposed to traveling out of state and hiring a guide.

    I also know several people who have taken mulies from BLM land near Presidio, as well as seen them myself when hunting that area. In addition to that, my dad and I both took mulies from a place west of Van Horn.

    And, last but not least, there are isolated pockets of whitetails in that country. In the early 70s, my dad took a heavy horned 8 pt. from Pinto Canyon, which runs sort of north-south between Marfa and the border. I've always thought this his whitetail had to be a sub-species similar to the Coues deer, and should merit its own classification as far as Boone and Crockett classification, but I doubt it will ever happen. If it does, his deer may be a record book buck.

    Do yourself a favor and visit that country. You may be surprised at what you find.

    One last thing and I'll quit. I was driving from Colorado to west Texas last week to visit my mom. On the way down, I saw about 5-6 mulies in the northern edge of Amarillo. I was surprised to say the least.

    Jerry not to sound like a smart A.., but if I go mule deer Or elk hunting I'm getting a guide for the simple reason that I have never hunted either one and If I go to the trouble and expense of that, I'm getting a guide. Now after a few trips I may decide I don't need one. But to start out with I will have a guide unless I'm with someone like you who has been there, done that.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
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