The Public Education System: A Huge Fail for America

JonathanBaileyJonathanBailey Posts: 55 Member
It's a shame whenever an American man can't provide for a wife and children. Old male pride once meant being financially successful: resourceful and competent in being a breadwinner whether he's a Hollywood actor, a doctor, a fisherman, a cowboy, a farmer, a lumberjack, a forest ranger, a policeman, a soldier, a carpenter, a lawyer, a business executive, a professional baseball player or a machinist. 

Our education has system (or lack thereof) has short-changed men and boys. It started in 1972 with Title IX and has gotten progressively worse since then. It lead to a huge bogus quota system: akin to affirmative action. The female sex has been out-enrolling male students in colleges and universities and even out-participating the fellows in collegiate and HS varsity sports. Politicians have put so much effort "in advancing women and girls"  to make them "feel good" about it that the male sex has been given a bad deal. It is natural law that the adult man be the breadwinner and the adult woman be the homemaker. Academic achievement and sometimes athletic achievement is necessary to make that possible. Another thing, there should be much more government funding for traditional trade schools too. The GI Bill, Pell Grants, scholarships, etc. should not be only eligible to be applied for for college/ academic/degree program studies but also for vocational training to be a carpenter, plumber, heavy equipment operator, welder, machinist, technician, truck driver, railroad worker, electrician etc,. because skilled trades are excellent and reliable sources of income especially for male family providers. 

We as a nation should be focused more on being economically successful than just merely college-educated. A master's degree does no good if one can't get a job to pay the bills on time. If a man wants federal financial aid to be trained as a carpenter, he should have the same opportunity as if he were to want to become a medical doctor, a civil engineer or an architect. America's infrastructure is crumbling. We now need many more carpenters, welders and cat-skinners than computer geeks and attorneys. 

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/45-years-after-title-ix-americas-boys-need-equal-protection

Women now earn the majority of post-secondary degrees at every level. According to the U.S. Department of Education's National Center for Education Statistics, 52 percent of doctorates, 57 percent of master's degrees, 57 percent of bachelor degrees, and 61 percent of associate degrees are awarded to women.
America is not America without liberty and the necessary gun rights to defend it. 
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Answers

  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 3,806 Senior Member
    I've not attended any college or university. I don't think there's anything wrong with women or any other group gaining equal educational opportunity. The recent admissions scandal had me thinking about the state of higher education. I was remembering an in depth interview of an author I heard on the radio a few years ago. The author claimed Harvard medical school was actually teaching students that African American people feel less physical pain than other races. I can't comfirm or deny the truth of that absurdity, but my admiration of higher education is waning dramatically as a result of things being circulated in the news.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 8,750 Senior Member
    I know several widows and single Moms who might argue that men should be the bread winner
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,351 Senior Member
    ... I didn't raise my 3 daughters to depend on a man for her bread.
  • JonathanBaileyJonathanBailey Posts: 55 Member
    edited April 15 #5
    I've not attended any college or university. I don't think there's anything wrong with women or any other group gaining equal educational opportunity. The recent admissions scandal had me thinking about the state of higher education. I was remembering an in depth interview of an author I heard on the radio a few years ago. The author claimed Harvard medical school was actually teaching students that African American people feel less physical pain than other races. I can't comfirm or deny the truth of that absurdity, but my admiration of higher education is waning dramatically as a result of things being circulated in the news.
    Society has always had a much higher demand for men to achieve as economic providers than for women to do such. Any college education (or skilled-labor vocational training program) worth a damn should lead to a good (income-earning) employment or business opportunity. Reciting Shakespeare word for word by memory is unlikely to land me a job as a machinist. 
    America is not America without liberty and the necessary gun rights to defend it. 
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,599 Senior Member
    Don't bother pining for the past. It isn't coming back. It is the nature of civilization to be progressive. Even if it progresses itself out of existence......


    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • JonathanBaileyJonathanBailey Posts: 55 Member
    jbp-ohio said:
    Don't bother pining for the past. It isn't coming back. It is the nature of civilization to be progressive. Even if it progresses itself out of existence......


    I probably won't live to see that happen. I guess civilization will have to die and be born all over again. 
    America is not America without liberty and the necessary gun rights to defend it. 
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,213 Senior Member
    12 years and it's all over....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,351 Senior Member
    Last weekend, my girls left their "breadwinners" home and went up to my camp in northern Michigan. Once there, they gutted my 5th wheel with crow bars and sledge hammers and loaded the debris into the dump trailer. They split wood for the camp fire too. I "supervised" while drinking beer by the camp fire and cooked for them.

    My fragile little flowers!

    Sometimes, the two oldest want to make some extra money on dad's construction sites pouring concrete to supplement their career income (one is a dental tech, the other is a cosmetologist). They aren't allowed to hang with the boys unless they can hold their own (they usually outwork them). With no punches pulled, those kids work their asses off.

    Genetically, women are weaker. But even doing concrete, it isn't so much about physical strength but more about the will to get stuff done. Believe it or not, women are human just like us guys. They deserve to be treated that way.

    A good argument can be made that Title IX is being abused to make men less than equal. I want my son and daughters to be treated as equals with equal opportunities. Nothing more, nothing less. If this is what you are trying to say, I would suggest that you make it in a much less misogynistic way.



  • das68das68 Posts: 662 Senior Member
     Reciting Shakespeare word for word by memory is unlikely to land me a job as a machinist. 
    why?

  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,733 Senior Member
    I have known several machinists who could read. If I were hiring one, I would likely favor the applicant who could quote Shakespeare, ahead of the one who could quote Sponge-Bob, if their actual mechanical abilities appeared to be equal.

    But that's just me.
  • das68das68 Posts: 662 Senior Member
    bisley said:
    I have known several machinists who could read. If I were hiring one, I would likely favor the applicant who could quote Shakespeare, ahead of the one who could quote Sponge-Bob, if their actual mechanical abilities appeared to be equal.

    But that's just me.

    all's well that ends well then







  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,898 Senior Member
    I will agree that our so-called education "system" is in need of a 1,500 year checkup. Having to learn irrelevant crap in order to get a degree to earn a living is ridiculous. A good solid "three Rs", plus what's needed for your career path should be all that's required.  I'm a HUGE proponent of Vocational ed.
    Academia is, first and foremost, designed to be self-perpetuating (being derived from the monastic model) - I worked in academia for over 20 years and learned a lot about higher education. Above all else, academia is inefficient, wasteful, and has little relevancy to the real world.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    As a 30+ year veteran of the public education system, I agree that it's messed up, but it has nothing to do with male/female ratios.  Your rant is just plain silly, and most of us here probably got a good laugh from reading it.  When I had to teach high school age auto mechanics students the principles of  basic math, physics and chemistry before I could get around to teaching my trade, and a lot of them were too illiterate to read and understand service manuals written on an 8th. grade reading level, something is definitely wrong with the "education" our tax dollars are providing to our children.  Then once they have a high school diploma in hand that a lot of them can't read, the "higher education" system goes about brainwashing them into compliant little liberal drones.  A huge number of them are still unable to survive in the world of business and repay the astronomical debt they have accumulated to get that master's degree in Outdoor Masturbation!   
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,709 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    Academia is, first and foremost, designed to be self-perpetuating (being derived from the monastic model) - I worked in academia for over 20 years and learned a lot about higher education. Above all else, academia is inefficient, wasteful, and has little relevancy to the real world.

    Did you ever consider that maybe the area of academia that you worked in was "inefficient, wasteful, and has little relevancy to the real world"? I've done mechanical repair in various forms for the greater majority of my life and I use what I learned in chemistry, algebra, and geometry almost daily. 
     To the op, my significant other has a masters and two BA degrees and used all of that education to make children smarter and better adults. She retired in 2017 after 37 years of teaching and has a large list of former students that are successful adults who can attribute some of their sucess to learning how to read and write in school. The current education system is a huge mess and will get worse before it gets better but if a student actually wants to learn, the opportunity is available but if a student isn't interested in getting smarter, the system doesn't care as long as the scores and numbers look good. And Debbie is outside tilling the garden while I'm playing around on the internet. When she's done with the garden, she'll feed the horses and mow the pasture. Hopefully she won't break a nail.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,898 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib said:Did you ever consider that maybe the area of academia that you worked in was "inefficient, wasteful, and has little relevancy to the real world"? I've done mechanical repair in various forms for the greater majority of my life and I use what I learned in chemistry, algebra, and geometry almost daily.
    And thus you needed chemistry, algebra and geometry for your job! Not arguing about that. Its all the other crap they make you take. My job involved algebra and certain branches of physics, as well as boolean logic.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • AccipiterAccipiter New Member Posts: 231 Member
    My wife made more money than me before she chose to stay home with the kids, and has recently started a home business that has potential to make a lot more money than me.

    I do pretty good as a tradesman and began as a carpenter.  I learned to be a carpenter on the Job.  Didn’t need to go to school for it.  I also learned roofing, welding, plumbing, electrical, hvac, and you name it the same way.  I do not like hiring guys out of a trade school.  My experience is that they think they know more than they do, and it is hard to get them to unlearn some of the things they learned.  I like starting with a blank slate.

    Anyway my wife has a BS in chemistry, and biology.  She also has an MBA in finance.  She paid for her undergraduate with a 100% academic scholarship that she didn’t need a handout to get.  She is like 10,000 times smarter than me, and I am glad she is a breadwinner.  She doesn’t need to take **** from any man.  I have a daughter on the way and she will be raised to achieve on her own also.

    I think if a woman chooses to be a home maker it is her choice, not some cultural obligation.


  • ShannonHayesShannonHayes Posts: 211 Member
    My Dad, my brother nor myself ever attended college. But all three of us dealt many, many times with college graduates who didn't know jack about the job, didn't have any real world knowledge, didn't have any common sense, and basically didn't know their pecker from a hole in the ground!
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    edited May 4 #20

    As a 30-something year veteran of teaching in trade schools, either at the high school or vo-tech level, I've encountered dozens of snobs like "Accipiter", or whatever he used to call himself before he got banned the last time- - - - ("Rocketman", wasn't it?) guys who don't understand that trade schools are intended to teach "entry-level" skills.  The 2 year course I taught for the state of Tennessee was intended to give a kid enough skills to get his foot in the door of the automotive business, and maybe make himself a subsistence wage while he moved from "apprentice" to "journeyman" level.  Making that transition is difficult enough, without some sourpuss of a boss putting down his efforts to improve himself.  Fortunately, the good ones will tell that guy to take his criticism and stuff it where the sun don't shine, and find a job where someone will mentor him into a well-rounded professional.

       

    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • ShannonHayesShannonHayes Posts: 211 Member
    Teach said:

    As a 30-something year veteran of teaching in trade schools, either at the high school or vo-tech level, I've encountered dozens of snobs like "Accipiter", or whatever he used to call himself before he got banned the last time- - - - ("Rocketman", wasn't it?) guys who don't understand that trade schools are intended to teach "entry-level" skills.  The 2 year course I taught for the state of Tennessee was intended to give a kid enough skills to get his foot in the door of the automotive business, and maybe make himself a subsistence wage while he moved from "apprentice" to "journeyman" level.  Making that transition is difficult enough, without some sourpuss of a boss putting down his efforts to improve himself.  Fortunately, the good ones will tell that guy to take his criticism and stuff it where the sun don't shine, and find a job where someone will mentor him into a well-rounded professional.

       

    The guys we dealt with weren't trade school/vo-tech graduates, but guys who had graduated , for lack of a better word coming to mind, "big deal universities", i.e. , LSU, Texas A&M just for example. They'd come onto the jobs, and even tho in most instances the job they were undertaking had zilch to do with their major or minor in college, would act like they knew more about the job at hand  than the guys with just high school diplomas or G.E.D.'s, who had been doing the job for years, some the majority of their lives,  and even the foremen! Not trying to stir up a hornets nest here, especially being new to the forum, just speaking on the subject from my own experiences.
  • AccipiterAccipiter New Member Posts: 231 Member
    edited May 4 #22
    Teach said:

    As a 30-something year veteran of teaching in trade schools, either at the high school or vo-tech level, I've encountered dozens of snobs like "Accipiter", or whatever he used to call himself before he got banned the last time- - - - ("Rocketman", wasn't it?) guys who don't understand that trade schools are intended to teach "entry-level" skills.  The 2 year course I taught for the state of Tennessee was intended to give a kid enough skills to get his foot in the door of the automotive business, and maybe make himself a subsistence wage while he moved from "apprentice" to "journeyman" level.  Making that transition is difficult enough, without some sourpuss of a boss putting down his efforts to improve himself.  Fortunately, the good ones will tell that guy to take his criticism and stuff it where the sun don't shine, and find a job where someone will mentor him into a well-rounded professional.

       

    I’m a snob
    I’m some guy named Rocket Man
    and I’m a sourpuss


    I suppose I could make some assumption regarding you as well.


    I said guys full of themselves.  If I was hiring a kid that desired to learn and knew their shortcomings I would be on cloud nine.  Most trade school grads I have dealt with think they had their 2 years of school and know everything.  I fail to see how I would not benefit from someone who can be mentored into a well rounded professional.  Any employee that learns and becomes productive is a benefit to a business of any description.

    I think I will continue to hire the blank slate individuals.  They are easier to    mentor, teach entry level skills to, and move them from apprentice to journeyman.  If that makes me a snob and a sourpuss so be it.  I wear the labels with pride.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3vO8E2e6G0
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,503 Senior Member
    I dunno, I think the edukashunal sistem lerned me up rite smart! 

    Have some aspects of the system been "failures"?  I think it depends on your point of view... Title IX, has done what it was designed to do, in spades.  I'm sorry, but that can ONLY be viewed as resounding success.  However, I will agree that it has also had some unintended consequences that, to the conspiracy minded, look like part of an evil plan. 

    Does the question of intent really matter though?  If an unintentional act (either by an individual, or, in this case, a governing body) has the same effect as an intentional one, is there really a difference?  The list of government programs (which would include our public educational system) that have somehow "accomplished" something they weren't intended to, is both long and distinguished.  

    As far as more girls enrolling in college... seems to me that bodes well for boys entering college.  Frankly, far too many of either sex enter college having ZERO idea as to what they're about, other than chasing tail... maybe less "young, dumb and full of you know what" isn't such a bad thing.  Heck, maybe the boys have caught on to the fact that college isn't necessarily the best choice and have decided to do what men have done since the dawn of time... strike out on their own, looking to make their own way.  That wouldn't be such a bad thing either, would it? 
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • ShannonHayesShannonHayes Posts: 211 Member
    I dunno, I think the edukashunal sistem lerned me up rite smart! 

    Have some aspects of the system been "failures"?  I think it depends on your point of view... Title IX, has done what it was designed to do, in spades.  I'm sorry, but that can ONLY be viewed as resounding success.  However, I will agree that it has also had some unintended consequences that, to the conspiracy minded, look like part of an evil plan. 

    Does the question of intent really matter though?  If an unintentional act (either by an individual, or, in this case, a governing body) has the same effect as an intentional one, is there really a difference?  The list of government programs (which would include our public educational system) that have somehow "accomplished" something they weren't intended to, is both long and distinguished.  

    As far as more girls enrolling in college... seems to me that bodes well for boys entering college.  Frankly, far too many of either sex enter college having ZERO idea as to what they're about, other than chasing tail... maybe less "young, dumb and full of you know what" isn't such a bad thing.  Heck, maybe the boys have caught on to the fact that college isn't necessarily the best choice and have decided to do what men have done since the dawn of time... strike out on their own, looking to make their own way.  That wouldn't be such a bad thing either, would it? 
    You make a good point, and I agree about less guys going to college. I think its great that more guys are going back to hands-on jobs, and less into college looking for cushy, hi-ranking, office type jobs! And I give a large part of the credit to Jesse James and his "Motorcycle Mania" shows, which showed kids that its cool to build things with your hands, to be a machinist, a fabricator, a mechanic, etc.
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,503 Senior Member
    Don't give credit to him, or to the network that starred him... if you mentioned his name, 89.4% of millennials (and younger) will reply "Who?"

    Give credit to folks who are "only" working in trades, in a factory, or in a service industry and still make a good living.  In essence, they are showing these kids - not telling them - that a four year degree isn't necessary to lube life... which is likely far different from what they've been told in the past. 
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,351 Senior Member
    Mike Rowe deserves a bit of credit...

  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,733 Senior Member
    All a person really needs to understand, in order to seek out a good basic education, is the ability to tell the difference between useful information and dogma. Parents use a form of dogma during our early lives to control our actions, until we are mature enough for them to start replacing the dogma with small truths. Most parents have trouble knowing when to curtail the dogma, altogether. Many never do, for fear of spoiling what they have so carefully created, with all of their half-truths and outright BS. The fact that so many children grow up without the influence of loving fathers does not help.

    Once a young adult has a general idea of what is or is not relevant to his immediate life, he can seek out the answers to tougher questions, like what is relevant to every life, over time, by simply doing some selective reading. By avoiding the bulk of the current irrelevancies, and focusing mostly on the relevancy and accuracy of the information he needs to survive and flourish, he will eventually gain enough factual information to expand his subject matter, by correlating the truisms he has discovered in his own life to the truisms others have adhered to, in their lives. Sometimes, that results in finding an actual truth, if he is lucky enough to recognize it when he sees it.

    Life is a continuous string of creating 'work-arounds' for solving little problems, which can be put together to solve bigger problems. The dogma that a person has absorbed during the course of living his life is a detriment to problem-solving (work-arounds), if it corrupts a truth, sending a person down so many 'rabbit trails' that he loses his focus on solving the specific problem he was originally trying to solve. The goal of formal education should be to create a legitimate base of knowledge, about how to live life in the moment, before tackling the much harder problems that are associated with a whole life.

    As a person ages, ideas move back and forth across the relevant/irrelevant line, because many of the ideas he thought were irrelevant were really just subjects that did not interest him enough to learn about. When higher education was still working fairly well, it had to force-feed some subjects, like philosophy and ethics, down the throats of young adults who had little interest in anything but making money, buying things, and having fun. Likely, being exposed to such subjects did not immediately convince many youngsters about their relevancy. But, it did expose them to many of life's questions that needed to be answered logically, and it did plant the seeds for objectivity, to be accessed more extensively, at some later date - when life had taught them the importance of asking the right questions.

    At some point, many of the higher education institutions drifted too far into political strategies, and the line between truth and dogma became blurred. Dogma was probably originally invented as a tool to control children and idiots, and those who benefited the most from possessing that contro, wanted more children and more idiots to do their bidding.

    Wisdom comes from learning how to recognize the difference between truth and dogma, and it becomes a rare intellectual commodity, during radical times.
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,198 Senior Member
    bisley said:
    .............................
    At some point, many of the higher education institutions drifted too far into political strategies, and the line between truth and dogma became blurred. Dogma was probably originally invented as a tool to control children and idiots, and those who benefited the most from possessing that contro, wanted more children and more idiots to do their bidding.

    Wisdom comes from learning how to recognize the difference between truth and dogma, and it becomes a rare intellectual commodity, during radical times.
    Mostly the reason the left wants 16 year-olds to vote. Can you imagine what a cluster.....k that would be?
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 19,898 Senior Member
    There are billions of people who live by dogma, and dogma alone.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,798 Senior Member
    bisley said:
    .............................
    At some point, many of the higher education institutions drifted too far into political strategies, and the line between truth and dogma became blurred. Dogma was probably originally invented as a tool to control children and idiots, and those who benefited the most from possessing that contro, wanted more children and more idiots to do their bidding.

    Wisdom comes from learning how to recognize the difference between truth and dogma, and it becomes a rare intellectual commodity, during radical times.
    Mostly the reason the left wants 16 year-olds to vote. Can you imagine what a cluster.....k that would be?
    You can make a stronger case for a 16 year old to vote than an 80 year old. The 16 year old has to live a lifetime with the decisions politicians make. The 80 year old has maybe a decade at best. Yes the 80 year old presumably has more knowledge and wisdom about how the world was, but the 16 year old knows a lot better about what the world is going to be. I think a lot problems in politics stem from the fact that it's dominated by old people focused on what used to be and little understanding of what is and will be. We live in a dynamic and rapidly changing world dominated by technology, and we're ruled by people who barely know how to email or text.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,709 Senior Member
    bisley said:
    .............................
    At some point, many of the higher education institutions drifted too far into political strategies, and the line between truth and dogma became blurred. Dogma was probably originally invented as a tool to control children and idiots, and those who benefited the most from possessing that contro, wanted more children and more idiots to do their bidding.

    Wisdom comes from learning how to recognize the difference between truth and dogma, and it becomes a rare intellectual commodity, during radical times.
    Mostly the reason the left wants 16 year-olds to vote. Can you imagine what a cluster.....k that would be?
    You can make a stronger case for a 16 year old to vote than an 80 year old. The 16 year old has to live a lifetime with the decisions politicians make. The 80 year old has maybe a decade at best. Yes the 80 year old presumably has more knowledge and wisdom about how the world was, but the 16 year old knows a lot better about what the world is going to be. I think a lot problems in politics stem from the fact that it's dominated by old people focused on what used to be and little understanding of what is and will be. We live in a dynamic and rapidly changing world dominated by technology, and we're ruled by people who barely know how to email or text.

    We'll add this to your list of absolute full of crap posts. That 16 year old is thinking more about the tatoos he plans to get than about the future of the world. Any concerns about the environment are implanted by liberal educators who can easily manipulate a young mind. Many young people were all for the new green deal but when asked to provide ideas and practicle solutions about transportation and food production, they were clueless.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
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