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AR45 range report

FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior MemberPosts: 5,797 Senior Member
Well as I had mentioned in Alpha's thread, I really liked the looks of the FM pistol upper in .45acp that he linked and I ordered one. It came in and looked as good in hand as the picture and appeared well made. I got a Spartan Glock based lower, Kaw Valley Precision .45 buffer and spring kit, Stoner lower parts kit, and capped it with an SB brace. I was excited to shoot it and got my Glock 21 magazines in on Saturday. I had a box of Winchester 230 ball sitting around and on Sunday I made time to take it to the range. My excitement turned to frustration as it wouldn't run more than two or three rounds at a time without jamming. I tried all three brand new Glock mags that I bought and they all did the same thing, the tip of the bullet hung up on the edge of the chamber and jammed the gun. I thought maybe the edge of the chamber may have been a little too crisp and sharp from being freshly machined but the more I shot, the worse it got. I initially tried two rounds, then four, then a full mag of 13 rounds and they ran. The next mag would only run one shot at a time, and the next mag would only run one or two at a time and after a few attempts the one mag that originally worked fine was jamming after one or two shots. I called FM products this morning and the customer service guy I spoke with told me not to run white box Winchester and it should be fine. When I told him that I wanted to know why and that I wanted it to be able to run anything in it, he said that white box Winchester just didn't work and offered a refund for the upper. Now in their support, I had talked to a tech guy at FM previously about which buffer to use and they were extremely knowledgeable and helpful and this guy offered no technical reasoning and said a refund is the only solution he can offer. I'm currently awaiting a call from one of their tech guys  to find a solution.
snake284 wrote: »
For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
.
«1

Replies

  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,128 Senior Member
    edited April 2019 #2
    That is a bummer. Winchester white box is pretty much a given for inexpensive fun ammo. I hope you get this worked out. Otherwise, that gun should be a hoot to shoot.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 10,906 Senior Member
    Maybe try a box of something else and if there is even one hick cup id get a shipping label and send it back.  Hope you can work it out.  AR pistols are fun and a whole lot more useful than i ever thought.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • timctimc Senior Member Posts: 6,684 Senior Member
    Sorry about your issues, if you saw my thread on the AR45 I built there were several issues I had to work out to get it running well.
    the main problem was spring tension, you need some high powered mag springs to force the rounds up at the right angle out of the mag. 
    timc - formerly known as timc on the last G&A forum and timc on the G&A forum before that and the G&A forum before that.....
    AKA: Former Founding Member
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    I spoke with one of their tech guys a little while ago and he explained that this is a new product and they're still working some bugs out as they discover them. I made it clear that I like the gun and want it to work and he said they will do whatever it takes to make it work for me. He's sending me some parts that he's fairly confident will solve the problems and even though I got a buffer and spring that was supposed to be specific to the .45acp, it still may not be the right ones.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • timctimc Senior Member Posts: 6,684 Senior Member
    You do need an extra heavy buffer but I would still look into extra high power mag springs for most of your issues. With the ECHO trigger mine runs like lightning, all you hear is BrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrP

    timc - formerly known as timc on the last G&A forum and timc on the G&A forum before that and the G&A forum before that.....
    AKA: Former Founding Member
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    Check Taccom, they make a feed ramp you can install, not sure about .45.  I had a "feed ramp" cut into my 9mm barrel and it stopped ftfs almost completely.  Length seems to be an issue with PCCs, they seem to prefer longer COAL.  Especially w/o a feed ramp.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • ilove22silove22s Senior Member Posts: 1,387 Senior Member
    when you do a kluge like that its a PIA to TS issues.


    But as mentioned try different ammo.

    Use the KISS principle and dont change alot of things at one time.

    what i learned about 1911s is that LOA and bullet shape can play a big difference on feeding.  when the 1911 came out they were made to shoot FMJs.  Then HPs came out and you had to throat the older 1911s.  even tho its not a 1911, i still think that LOA can play a part.

    but the easiest thing would be to try some different ammo and see what happens.


    The ears never lie.

    - Don Burt
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,610 Senior Member
    What others have said... the easiest thing to do is try different ammo.  Get several brands of ball ammo and see what's what.  See if anything changes.  If not, wait for the parts to arrive, and when they do, pick the most likely culprit and repeat the process.  
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    After talking to their tech guy at length, I've found that I have two problems. Aside from the jams, the trigger is not resetting consistently. FM gives a maximum length for a buffer and the Kaw Valley buffer is .3" longer than they recommend so the bolt is not being allowed it's full travel. As for playing with ammo, I want this thing to run anything. Rather than only using ammo that it likes, I prefer to take ammo that it doesn't like and make it work. I own half a dozen 1911's and they will all feed anything, a couple will even feed empty cases.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • ilove22silove22s Senior Member Posts: 1,387 Senior Member
    ......As for playing with ammo, I want this thing to run anything. Rather than only using ammo that it likes, I prefer to take ammo that it doesn't like and make it work. I own half a dozen 1911's and they will all feed anything, a couple will even feed empty cases.

    you are missing the point.

    the idea is to TS the issue.  Right now you have NO idea whats going on.

    I dont care if you own thousands of 1911s,  Every gun is different.  Even if they are off the same assembly line.

    do what you want.

    good luck


    The ears never lie.

    - Don Burt
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    ilove22s said:
    ......As for playing with ammo, I want this thing to run anything. Rather than only using ammo that it likes, I prefer to take ammo that it doesn't like and make it work. I own half a dozen 1911's and they will all feed anything, a couple will even feed empty cases.

    you are missing the point.

    the idea is to TS the issue.  Right now you have NO idea whats going on.

    I dont care if you own thousands of 1911s,  Every gun is different.  Even if they are off the same assembly line.

    do what you want.

    good luck


    You may have missed the part where I've interacted with the manufacturer about correcting these issues. They are confident that the buffer and spring are the culprits, enough so that they are sending me the parts for free. And where did you get the impression that I have "NO idea what's going on"? I haven't posted anything suggesting that I'm totally clueless and walking in circles in my yard drooling and mumbling to myself.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • timctimc Senior Member Posts: 6,684 Senior Member
    edited April 2019 #13
    I hope you ordered some mag springs too. For the 10 rounders I got the Wolff extra power springs.

    for the 26 rounders I tried the Wolff extra power 9mm springs which improved feeding then ordered some Springs for the Thompson 30 round mags. Those took some modification and with a spacer they are now very reliable 24 round mags.
    like you said, you have more than one problem, I agree on the buffer, spring. 
    timc - formerly known as timc on the last G&A forum and timc on the G&A forum before that and the G&A forum before that.....
    AKA: Former Founding Member
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    Tim, is your lower designed for Thompson mags? Mine uses Glock 21 magazines and I haven't read anything about needing to change the springs. Is this something to help it function with the trigger that you have?
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,610 Senior Member
    ilove22s said:
    ......As for playing with ammo, I want this thing to run anything. Rather than only using ammo that it likes, I prefer to take ammo that it doesn't like and make it work. I own half a dozen 1911's and they will all feed anything, a couple will even feed empty cases.

    you are missing the point.

    the idea is to TS the issue.  Right now you have NO idea whats going on.

    I dont care if you own thousands of 1911s,  Every gun is different.  Even if they are off the same assembly line.

    do what you want.

    good luck


    You may have missed the part where I've interacted with the manufacturer about correcting these issues. They are confident that the buffer and spring are the culprits, enough so that they are sending me the parts for free. And where did you get the impression that I have "NO idea what's going on"? I haven't posted anything suggesting that I'm totally clueless and walking in circles in my yard drooling and mumbling to myself.
    Lighten up, Francis

    He's merely saying that nobody knows, because nobody has "properly" evaluated it.  IIRC, you do refrigeration work for a living.  As such, you have likely run into a case that doesn't do what it's supposed to and the reason isn't obvious.  He's basically talking about a diagnostic tree.  "Does it do "X"?  If so, proceed to check "Y". If not, check "W".

    Nobody said you weren't capable of figuring it out.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • timctimc Senior Member Posts: 6,684 Senior Member
    edited April 2019 #16
    Tim, is your lower designed for Thompson mags? Mine uses Glock 21 magazines and I haven't read anything about needing to change the springs. Is this something to help it function with the trigger that you have?
    I’m using Glock 21 mags but the Thompson springs are the longest you can find. I had to modify the ends a little to fit the Glock 21 mags but it wasn’t hard, just a little bending work with some players to fit the follower. The problem is rounds weren’t pushed up at enough pressure and would not feed right into the chamber. The high power springs took care  of that

    I’ll measure my buffer and see how long it is. I was thinking like you at first but the high power mag springs made the most difference with the 26 round mags. I would think if it locks the trigger back by hand when cocked it should when firing too.
    timc - formerly known as timc on the last G&A forum and timc on the G&A forum before that and the G&A forum before that.....
    AKA: Former Founding Member
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    Did you only modify the aftermarket 26 round mags or did you also modify the factory 13 round mags? I've only tried the 13 round mags but my 26 round ones came in yesterday and I'll try them this weekend. I've shortened the buffer .3" and I'll try that first before I try their spring as I don't think that the one they sent is any stiffer than the one I have. I only reduced the weight of the buffer about 1/4 oz so that should be insignificant.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • timctimc Senior Member Posts: 6,684 Senior Member
    edited April 2019 #18
    I put Wolff extra power springs in the 10 and 13 rounders I have which helped them a lot. 
    The 26 rounders mags with the Thompson stick mag springs really shine but the still will only run 24 rounds but they do it reliably. The ECHO trigger makes it super fun. I can have 8 or more pieces of brass in the air before the first one hits the ground, it is a super fast trigger. At rapid fire I get good accuracy out to 50 yards which is plenty for .45acp.
    if you get the ECHO trigger buy plenty of mags, you will be changing them quickly!

    i hope the buffer shave does well for you but if it is locking 50% of the time then I really don’t think that is your problem. I know I sound like a broken record but the harder I pushed up the rounds in the mags the more reliable it fed. My first attempt on the 26 rounders was to use Glock 33 round 9mm extra power springs with that I got 21-22 rounds to feed reliably. The Thompson’s got me another two rounds
    this was out of all 10 mags.
    be aware there are good and bad 26 round mags. The first couple I bought were junk. I found a place that sells drop free 26 rounders, those I like.

    https://www.newfrontierarmory.com/shop/kci-glock-45-26-round-magazine/
    timc - formerly known as timc on the last G&A forum and timc on the G&A forum before that and the G&A forum before that.....
    AKA: Former Founding Member
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    I was checking to see if the 26 round mags I got would lock the bolt back and they do, because they extend too deeply into the gun and the bolt actually hits the back of the feed lips. They extend almost an 1/8" deeper into the gun than the Glock mags do. I'll be sendind those back.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    Well I tried the shortened buffer and two different springs and the trigger resets most of the time but not all of the time so they're sending me one of their buffers. One of my mags will run 3 to six shots before it jams, one is a single shot, and one won't even chamber the first round. I've tried three different brands of ball and my cast handloads and nothing runs. I personally think the chamber is too tight and the edges need to be polished some as the jammed rounds all have pretty deep gouges in them just behind the rim from the edge of the chamber. The manufacture wants me to send it back after I try the new buffer with Blazer brass ammo.
    And I finally figured out how to post pics with my tablet.

    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    When you get tired of messing with FM, cut a feed ramp in the barrel.  Google how.  If you screw it up, cut the pin off and rotate the barrel 90 deg. and you're back to where you started.  Trying to jam a bullet at an angle into a hole is a hit or miss deal at best.  Reload some to max length and try that also.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • das68das68 Posts: 662 Senior Member
    edited April 2019 #22

    And I finally figured out how to post pics with my tablet.


    it looks very fuzzy

    would that stop it cycling correctly? :)

    very nice

    hope you get it sussed out

    always was a cool cartridge

     











  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    BAMAAK said:
    When you get tired of messing with FM, cut a feed ramp in the barrel. 
    That was my first thought but I'll send it back to them one time and then I'll take care of it myself. I think it needs to be ramped and the edges of the chamber smoothed a little.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    das68 said:

    And I finally figured out how to post pics with my tablet.


    it looks very fuzzy.

     


    I'm having bad luck with electronic stuff also. My new tablet was sent back under warranty and my old one works but is pretty scratched up. I'm surprised it's even as clear as it is.








    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • das68das68 Posts: 662 Senior Member
    edited April 2019 #25

    I'm having bad luck with electronic stuff also. My new tablet was sent back under warranty and my old one works but is pretty scratched up. I'm surprised it's even as clear as it is.








    I never seem to have any luck with marine diesel

    should have stayed with coal/steam


    the  druid blackmagic




  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    das68 said:

    I'm having bad luck with electronic stuff also. My new tablet was sent back under warranty and my old one works but is pretty scratched up. I'm surprised it's even as clear as it is.








    I never seem to have any luck marine diesel

    should have stayed with coal/steam

    I have bad luck with boats also, last fall I got a call from the marina telling me that my boat was on the bottom. When I got there I found that it was hanging by the mooring lines just off the bottom (in 13' of water) and my radar and GPS antennas were about a foot out of the water and salvageable as the head units were off the boat. I boomed it and arranged a salvage company to take care of it and by the next morning the aft lines had broke and the antennas were just under water. So much for salvaging the electronics.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • das68das68 Posts: 662 Senior Member
    old joke


     think of your worst enemy

     got that image in your head?

    good

    now, go and buy the sod a boat.

     that'll learn 'em.



  • timctimc Senior Member Posts: 6,684 Senior Member
    Send it to me, I’ll chase all the bad juju out and sprinkle some good juju on it. When it’s running great I’ll send you a video.....cause what are friends for!
    timc - formerly known as timc on the last G&A forum and timc on the G&A forum before that and the G&A forum before that.....
    AKA: Former Founding Member
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    timc said:
    Send it to me, I’ll chase all the bad juju out and sprinkle some good juju on it. When it’s running great I’ll send you a video.....cause what are friends for!
    The thing is kinda fun when it does fire and I'm determined to get it to run and I'm confident that it eventually will. I'm thinking of eventually building another one in 9mm. The .45 will probably be my first can and I'll justify the 9mm by telling Debbie that I built it for her. I expect to have the .45 running by the SE shoot and if you show up you can play with it.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 10,906 Senior Member
    das68 said:

    I'm having bad luck with electronic stuff also. My new tablet was sent back under warranty and my old one works but is pretty scratched up. I'm surprised it's even as clear as it is.








    I never seem to have any luck marine diesel

    should have stayed with coal/steam

    I have bad luck with boats also, last fall I got a call from the marina telling me that my boat was on the bottom. When I got there I found that it was hanging by the mooring lines just off the bottom (in 13' of water) and my radar and GPS antennas were about a foot out of the water and salvageable as the head units were off the boat. I boomed it and arranged a salvage company to take care of it and by the next morning the aft lines had broke and the antennas were just under water. So much for salvaging the electronics.
    Sorry to hear about the boat.
    Hope you get that gun running right. Should be fun and handy around the ranch also
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    Well the saga continues. I tried the ammo that the upper manufacturer recommended and nothing changed. The dang barrel needs to be ramped. I called the manufacturer of the lower about  the aftermarket high capacity magazines not working at all and they kinda rudely stated that  they only recommend Glock made magazines. The Spartan reciever manufactured by Joe Bob Outfitters looks good but limits you to 13 round Glock mags if you want it to run. If you want to be able to run 26 round aftermarket magazines, look elsewhere.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
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