I understand what you are saying, and I was very specific when I asked about "less recoil". I did not use the term "felt" or "perceived" recoil, because such is greatly influenced by rifle weight, stock design and fit. My point is that if someone is going to say that in the exact same rifle (identical weight and stock), the recoil of a 280 AI round at the same MV, bullet weight and powder charge is going to be less than the recoil of the 7mm Remington Magnum, that is simply attributing mystical properties to the cartridge.
The 257 Improved will develop from 100 to 300 fps more velocity than the standard 257 Roberts, depending on bullet weight
I don't know what your research has consisted of as far as Ackley Improved cartridges.
My Nosler # 6 reloading manual shows a jump of over 150 fps with 120 grain bullets
Same action, barrel contour and same Rem Sporter stock from mcmillan, 7rem mag recoils more than rifle in 280AI, I built it after reading the article in shooting times, tried all the loads he listed and the reloader 19 TTSX was best combo, I love this rifle, going elk hunting with it this fall.
I haven't seen a .257 AI that didn't better the original Bob by at least 100 FPS and most loadings i've seen better it by 200-300 FPS, especially with the heavier bullets. Mine is bettering the standard roberts by 200 FPS with 100 grain Sierra Pro Hunters. But in all fairness, I don't know if the standard loading gets its max in the improved chamber when fire forming.
Daddy, what's an enabler?
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
Same action, barrel contour and same Rem Sporter stock from mcmillan, 7rem mag recoils more than rifle in 280AI, I built it after reading the article in shooting times, tried all the loads he listed and the reloader 19 TTSX was best combo, I love this rifle, going elk hunting with it this fall.
I have to line up on Peg's side on this issue. If the only difference between two rifles is that one is chambered in 280AI and the other in 7RM, the recoil should be the same. It's a matter of physics.
Other than the chambering, is there any other difference between the two? For instance, are you loading the 7RM with a different powder, and a heavier powder charge? I can see that making a difference. Have you confirmed that both rifles are getting the same MV?
I also don't understand the issue that some make over the recoil of a 7RM. I've been shooting one for nearly 20 years, loaded with 175 grain bullets, and the recoil just doesn't seem that harsh to me.
Jerry
Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
Jerry Bob, I've only shot my 7mag a couple of times with a 150 grain bullet I loaded with 62 grains of IMR 4831 and it doesn't kick as bad as my .270 with a max load of the same powder and a 130 grain Game King. I know, everybody is going to say I'm crazy, but there are differences in rifle weight, but not much and the biggest difference is the load is max in my .270 but still a couple grains powder away in the 7Mag. Even though the 7 Mag load has 62 grains of powder and the .270 only has 56.7 grains, the .270 has less capacity and that load fills the case pretty tightly while the load in the 7 RM has quite a bit of room in the case. Also, the .270 has a very hard recoil pad and it thumps pretty hard. It is probably a half pound lighter too. I'm sure most of the reason is because of these reasons. There's no magic here. Some guns just have more whop than others and the size of the cartridge isn't why.
Daddy, what's an enabler?
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
Jerry Bob, I've only shot my 7mag a couple of times with a 150 grain bullet I loaded with 62 grains of IMR 4831 and it doesn't kick as bad as my .270 with a max load of the same powder and a 130 grain Game King. I know, everybody is going to say I'm crazy, but there are differences in rifle weight, but not much and the biggest difference is the load is max in my .270 but still a couple grains powder away in the 7Mag. Even though the 7 Mag load has 62 grains of powder and the .270 only has 56.7 grains, the .270 has less capacity and that load fills the case pretty tightly while the load in the 7 RM has quite a bit of room in the case. Also, the .270 has a very hard recoil pad and it thumps pretty hard. It is probably a half pound lighter too. I'm sure most of the reason is because of these reasons. There's no magic here. Some guns just have more whop than others and the size of the cartridge isn't why.
Both smokeless and black powder are explosive, as they both deflagrate.
FYI, Smokeless powder isn't usually classified as an explosive, but rather a propellent. However, it will explode under the right circumstances, but then again so will a bag of flour. Many things that can explode aren't classified as explosives.
Jerry Bob, I've only shot my 7mag a couple of times with a 150 grain bullet I loaded with 62 grains of IMR 4831 and it doesn't kick as bad as my .270 with a max load of the same powder and a 130 grain Game King. I know, everybody is going to say I'm crazy, but there are differences in rifle weight, but not much and the biggest difference is the load is max in my .270 but still a couple grains powder away in the 7Mag. Even though the 7 Mag load has 62 grains of powder and the .270 only has 56.7 grains, the .270 has less capacity and that load fills the case pretty tightly while the load in the 7 RM has quite a bit of room in the case. Also, the .270 has a very hard recoil pad and it thumps pretty hard. It is probably a half pound lighter too. I'm sure most of the reason is because of these reasons. There's no magic here. Some guns just have more whop than others and the size of the cartridge isn't why.
I don't think your crazy snake and I believe you when you say you feel the recoil as harder. Your shoulder isn't setup to measure recoil energy, it only responds to the stress from the recoil force.
:beer:
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
I don't think your crazy snake and I believe you when you say you feel the recoil as harder. Your shoulder isn't setup to measure recoil energy, it only responds to the stress from the recoil force.
:beer:
How very true Spk, and that's what I'm judging by is what I feel. All I know is that after about four rounds of it I'm ready to quit and shoot something else. But for hunting, once I've gone through the pain of sighting it in, I don't even think about the recoil. This rifle has served me well for many years and I hope for many more to come.
Daddy, what's an enabler?
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
FYI, Smokeless powder isn't usually classified as an explosive, but rather a propellent. However, it will explode under the right circumstances, but then again so will a bag of flour. Many things that can explode aren't classified as explosives.
As was noted above, some cartridges benefit more than others from the AI process than others. Cases with a lot of taper benefit ballistically the most. Cases such as the 22-250, 6.5x55 Swede and the 257 Roberts come to mind.
Ackley himself wrote that the 250 Savage attained "a greater percentage of increase in velocity than almost any other" at 17%. As it turns out, the two cartridges that showed more increase, the 25-35 WCF and 30-40 Krag, are relatively obscure and not likely to be chosen by modern sportsmen for improvement.
This puts the 250 Ackley ahead of 257 Roberts and even 25-06 factory loads using a lot less powder. You have to load the latter two fairly hot to surpass the 250 Ackley. Yes, you can Ackley improve them as well and eke out more, especially from the Roberts, but there is no more efficient and pretty little overachiever than the 250 Ackley.
My loads using 87-grain TNT (for coyotes) and 100-grain BT (for antelope) are astonishingly accurate.
Brian
"If this is flag waving, can you think of a better flag to wave?"
Irving Berlin
Replies
The 257 Improved will develop from 100 to 300 fps more velocity than the standard 257 Roberts, depending on bullet weight
I don't know what your research has consisted of as far as Ackley Improved cartridges.
My Nosler # 6 reloading manual shows a jump of over 150 fps with 120 grain bullets
From the Roberts to the improved
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
I have to line up on Peg's side on this issue. If the only difference between two rifles is that one is chambered in 280AI and the other in 7RM, the recoil should be the same. It's a matter of physics.
Other than the chambering, is there any other difference between the two? For instance, are you loading the 7RM with a different powder, and a heavier powder charge? I can see that making a difference. Have you confirmed that both rifles are getting the same MV?
I also don't understand the issue that some make over the recoil of a 7RM. I've been shooting one for nearly 20 years, loaded with 175 grain bullets, and the recoil just doesn't seem that harsh to me.
Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
Very well said.
FYI, Smokeless powder isn't usually classified as an explosive, but rather a propellent. However, it will explode under the right circumstances, but then again so will a bag of flour. Many things that can explode aren't classified as explosives.
I don't think your crazy snake and I believe you when you say you feel the recoil as harder. Your shoulder isn't setup to measure recoil energy, it only responds to the stress from the recoil force.
:beer:
How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
How very true Spk, and that's what I'm judging by is what I feel. All I know is that after about four rounds of it I'm ready to quit and shoot something else. But for hunting, once I've gone through the pain of sighting it in, I don't even think about the recoil. This rifle has served me well for many years and I hope for many more to come.
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
Yep. How about AIR in a balloon!
Ackley himself wrote that the 250 Savage attained "a greater percentage of increase in velocity than almost any other" at 17%. As it turns out, the two cartridges that showed more increase, the 25-35 WCF and 30-40 Krag, are relatively obscure and not likely to be chosen by modern sportsmen for improvement.
This puts the 250 Ackley ahead of 257 Roberts and even 25-06 factory loads using a lot less powder. You have to load the latter two fairly hot to surpass the 250 Ackley. Yes, you can Ackley improve them as well and eke out more, especially from the Roberts, but there is no more efficient and pretty little overachiever than the 250 Ackley.
My loads using 87-grain TNT (for coyotes) and 100-grain BT (for antelope) are astonishingly accurate.
Brian
Irving Berlin
Jerry
Paul, ya beat me to it!
Irving Berlin