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Long Read... Charty/Graphy Capitalism Stuff

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  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,668 Senior Member
     It's not just bachelor's degrees either, there's inflation at all levels. Many jobs that used to require a BS not require an MS or PhD too. 
    That's correct - I don't get it.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,167 Senior Member
    This is the best way to explain school..................



    My youngest stepson was the  best welder in his class by far but he cannot pass the math portion of the standardized tests so he doesn't get a diploma. In Florida all employers want to see the diploma. 

    When he moved back here after the hurricane, the first place he went to look for a job said, ''Weld this to this.'' 

    He did and was hired on the spot. They didn't even care to see a resume.
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,668 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio said:

    When he moved back here after the hurricane, the first place he went to look for a job said, ''Weld this to this.'' 

    He did and was hired on the spot. They didn't even care to see a resume.
    That's the way it should be...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,668 Senior Member
    edited April 2019 #35

    Supply and demand. There are only a small number of jobs that pay an upper middle class income. Lots of people want them and frankly lots of people could probably do them. Need some way to limit the applicant pool. 
    Its crazy, but it reminds me of this anecdote:
    The employer I retired from has Phd.s doing technician work because they're an incredible employer and are very hard to get hired on with. There's NO WAY I could get hired on there today, because of the glut of overqualified applicants.
    BUT
    A number of years ago, we had an opening for a guy to build fixtures and cables. We had any number of over qualified applicants. I was on the hiring committee. There was one applicant that was just perfect for the job. I, along with 2 or 3 others, had to fight to hire this guy, instead of the "most qualified" who would have transferred up in a year or two and we would have been right back to where we started from. I didn't think it was a good idea to hire someone with a BA or MA in electrical engineering to build cables!
    This was, of course, in the academic field - which I still maintain exists only to self propagate. As it was, the guy in question was a success in his position and was there until he retired about 11 years later. We still keep in touch, in fact, he's the one who has promised to bequeath me a 1944 RemRand 1911!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,128 Senior Member
    edited April 2019 #36
    I ran across this today and it looks pretty relevant to the discussion.


    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • RugerFanRugerFan Senior Member Posts: 2,295 Senior Member
    Interesting article 
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,167 Senior Member
    The schools here in this town are rated top in the county. Every time they are mentioned it is bragged about how they have the top amount of students who graduate through the college prep courses.

    When we pulled the last two kids out of catholic school and entered them here we now know why. They don't even ask what courses the student wants. They are enrolled automatically.

    Not that there are any other choices left. No shop classes, home ec, or anything but prep.


    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,611 Senior Member
    We're not really talking about knowledge = wealth though.... I mean, I've known more than a few people who would be considered knowledgeable who were also on the poor side of the ledger and I've also known many who would be considered quite stupid, but who also make very comfortable livings.  

    I guess I would agree that knowledge and the ability to learn are pathways to comfort, (and, most likely the pathways that the vast majority should follow) but they aren't the only pathways...

    There is nothing wrong or stupid about achieving greater knowledge, but folks tend to think that continuing education is the ONLY way to better yourself and that's just not so.
    As opposed to going through life with your head up your ass, I believe knowledge is a more useful option. I am not saying everyone needs a college degree-- Warren's "free college" plan ranks right up there with "build a wall"... far from it. I mean look on here... we had a guy that just quit due to his own ignorance. He goes off citing our constitution and he doesn't understand it. He completely ignored legitimately valid information because it was published in the New Yorker. I mean come on... someone that is so ignorant they are ignorant of their ignorance!

    I get jabbed on here from time to time because of some idea that if I don't agree with someone, it is because I was brainwashed by a leftest political science professor in college-- not that I can form my own thoughts and think for myself without the effort of some left wing plot. Getting a college education is often compared to a leftest doctrine camp-- heaven forbid they go there to help themselves become educated independent thinkers! 

    The idea that people are actively discouraging the pursuit of knowledge-- the severe anti-intellectualism, disturbs me.

    And yes, I do agree that people can be book smart and completely lack common sense, but I also realize that a very bright kid with a 5th grade reading level, and very little knowledge of math or science will probably make a very successful drug dealer or thief, that same kid with a high school education would probably be a whole lot more productive for our society-- all things being equal.
    I have zero problem with the quest for knowledge, or the desire to better oneself through its attainment.  I have a problem with the continuing attainment of knowledge being a requisite for any position where the knowledge gained is near useless, or where the ROI indicates that paying to gain that knowledge is both stupid and unprofitable.  Knowledge for knowledge's sake is fine, so long as it is a personal choice. 

    Hindsight being what it is, I would have been a little less accepting of my daughter's choice in both career path and school... but, I held my peace and played the proud dad (okay, so I was actually proud, and still am) and kept my mouth mostly shut.  Two years in, she realized she wasn't going to be a software engineer and decided to go with something more in keeping with who she actually IS (rather than opening a catalog and looking at possible income levels of prospective careers) and is one year removed from becoming a degreed chef... and, while I'm not convinced that cheffing (sic) couldn't be learned as a paid apprentice, the schooling to learn the profession in all but the most prestigious schools is FAR more affordable than she was previously dealing with, so her ROI is FAR more attractive. 
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio said:
    The schools here in this town are rated top in the county. Every time they are mentioned it is bragged about how they have the top amount of students who graduate through the college prep courses.

    When we pulled the last two kids out of catholic school and entered them here we now know why. They don't even ask what courses the student wants. They are enrolled automatically.

    Not that there are any other choices left. No shop classes, home ec, or anything but prep.


    Elective courses can help a young person decide which path they want to take. Mandatory core classes are great, but some courses help develope electricians, carpenters, masons, machinists, mechanics and so on.  
    Maybe a basic law course. But a elective not a full course schedule of them
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio said:
    The schools here in this town are rated top in the county. Every time they are mentioned it is bragged about how they have the top amount of students who graduate through the college prep courses.

    When we pulled the last two kids out of catholic school and entered them here we now know why. They don't even ask what courses the student wants. They are enrolled automatically.

    Not that there are any other choices left. No shop classes, home ec, or anything but prep.



    It becomes just one more driver to segregate people by class. It also reduces equality of opportunity and helps to ensure that your outcomes in life are more closely tied to your parents wealth rather than your own personal capabilities. 
    It doesn't become; it is the driver that segregates classes.  And always has been. This isn't some caste society...people can (an do) advance classes. Without government or charity. 
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,128 Senior Member
    Everything is what it is because of incentives. Schools almost everywhere are funded based on property taxes. School ratings are one of the things that people look at when buying a home and can really affect property values. When I lived in Columbus the difference between the same size/quality home in Grandview or Upper Arlington vs Columbus was as much as 2-3x higher, almost entirely driven by schools. Over time the better schools create an environment where they drive up property values and increases their own revenue pool while starving surrounding communities and schools of resources at least in relative terms.

    It becomes just one more driver to segregate people by class. It also reduces equality of opportunity and helps to ensure that your outcomes in life are more closely tied to your parents wealth rather than your own personal capabilities. 
    At least in my state, the rich school districts do not seem to get any more per-student funding than the poor districts. You would think even funding would produce even outcomes with the students, but it doesn't. Check this out. I live in Genesee County... plug that in the database. The area districts will come up. Davison gets the top test scores in the area. Carman-Ainsworth (where my kids go) tends to be in the middle of the pack. Flint Schools are on the bottom. Any schools that say "Academy" are charter schools.

    There is more at work going on beyond funding. I did notice that schools with higher administration costs and less to spend on instruction tend to perform worse than districts with lean administration costs.

    School district performance does affect property values here too, but it doesn't seem to affect pupil funding.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,749 Senior Member
    Yesterday I looked up what was available on-line as far as Thomas Jefferson's opinions about public schooling. I found out, at least according what was in the mis/dis/partial ciber information that he thought only a small portion should be free and the rest paid for.

    In an over crowded world, we as a society will have to pay for mass ignorance. One way or the other. Comes down to how much, where, when, and what for.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    In LA County , schools received similar funding but programs varied widely. When we were researching the elementary schools around us, we noticed one school's spending was 70% on ESL education. 
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member


    Jermanator said:

    .....I get jabbed on here from time to time because of some idea that if I don't agree with someone, it is because I was brainwashed by a leftest political science professor in college-- not that I can form my own thoughts and think for myself without the effort of some left wing plot. Getting a college education is often compared to a leftest doctrine camp-- heaven forbid they go there to help themselves become educated independent thinkers! 

    The idea that people are actively discouraging the pursuit of knowledge-- the severe anti-intellectualism, disturbs me....


     


    What you are interpreting as severe anti-intellectualism is actually nothing more than anti-propaganda-ism, from folks who have been watching major university standards falling even faster than the actual incidences of journalism occurring in major media outlets. That is what disturbs me. Who wants to see the flower of American youth attending ideological indoctrination classes that exploit the youthful curiosity that makes them so valuable to a free society. Instead of turning out idealistic civil libertarians that are capable of discerning fact from fiction by examining history and applying ethics and logic, they are creating community organizers who use ideological dogma to bludgeon the unbelievers into submission.

    Movements that use the public education system to program youngsters, or any other political 'un-sophisticates,' always portray their opposition as anti-intellectual. It is the last line of defense, before saying that their opposition is just too stupid to learn.

    When I am ranting about 'self-styled intellectuals,' I am referring to people who assume an air of superiority, by virtue of the 'education establishment' standards, that have become as corrupt as the rest of the left-wing establishment. They preach 'true-isms,' instead of actual truth, and use it as evidence to extrapolate into what they call proof, these days.






  • kansashunterkansashunter Senior Member Posts: 1,815 Senior Member
    Thanks Jerm, That one will make you think. I guess I look at it a little different. In my opinion a lot of the problems of today were caused by the government.  The destruction of the family is a real problem and that includes problems with the schools. I have no workable answers.
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