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.44 Spl - Should I?

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  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,061 Senior Member
    Slowing them down to 812 fps with a 7 grain load of Trail Boss improved accuracy and orientation at 12 yards!





    Then i I tried the expansion test with 5 gallons at 7 yards and a trash can behind them. 



    You can see the bullet in the middle of the jug, right before impact!



    The unfortunate result after plowing through 5 gallons, bouncing off the back of the trash can, and landing on the ground beneath the jugs..........a non expanded bullet. Only deformed on one side of the nose from contacting the hard trash can. 



    They obviously need more speed to expand. But, more speed causes them to tumble in flight from the Charter Arms barrel. 

    Crap. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,061 Senior Member
    Now I might try Trail Boss with the 200gr Gold Dot bullets and see if they will stabilize at a slower velocity like these did. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,772 Senior Member
    I'm thinking those 230's are a little on the soft side and are kinda sliding down the barrel.
    Waiting to see what happens with the Gold Dots.
    Just wondering, but have you measured the barrel dimensions?
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    Regular double end wad cutters are available in 44cal. You might be impressed with their performance.

    The Gold dots will be interesting. Ive used the CCI Blazer aluminum cased 200gr Gold dots for years. Never clocked them or even tested them for penetration or performance. I blindly trusted them by reputation.

  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,696 Senior Member
    Shoot the HBWC's flat end forward - seriously.

    At the velocities that gun is going to want, the only hope you'll have for reliable expansion is to be messing with alloys softer than you'll be getting with commercial cast bullets.  You'll want a either a darn near pure lead bullet with maybe only the barest touch of antimony or a lead/tin only bullet, and for that, you're likely pouring your own.  Too soft to ship in a jumbled box of 500 for the former, and too soft to ship and cost prohibitive for the latter.

    With expansion being iffy, the full wadcutter is your best bet for blunt force trauma.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,061 Senior Member
    Bigslug, have you forgotten the HBWC that I shot cavity first?

    They performed beautifully!!  Why would I want to shoot a wadcutter?

    I don’t need more penetration. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,061 Senior Member
    Spk said:
    I'm thinking those 230's are a little on the soft side and are kinda sliding down the barrel.
    Waiting to see what happens with the Gold Dots.
    Just wondering, but have you measured the barrel dimensions?
    If they were soft, I think I’d have gotten expansion in 5 gallons. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,772 Senior Member
    Well there's a dilemma. To fast and they tumble. To slow and they don't expand. I'm kinda not liking these 230's. And if you find a magic balance in between, it's gonna be a thin balance. Now range becomes a factor.

    I can't tell by the picture but what is the geometry of the hollow point? Straight down or tapering? Some hollow points are made just for accuracy.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,772 Senior Member


    The Gold dots will be interesting. Ive used the CCI Blazer aluminum cased 200gr Gold dots for years. Never clocked them or even tested them for penetration or performance. I blindly trusted them by reputation.

    I'm "Ye of little faith" in this area.
    Just like Zee, I test my loads for performance. So far I like how these work. Some are better than others but they all perform well.
    Bottom View:
    I like the Ranger ammo.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    If you remember N320.. He posted once that the Ranger ammo  had the most consistent speeds of any other ammo he chrono'd. The bullet in your pic looks like a Talon without the teflon.
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,772 Senior Member
    If you remember N320.. He posted once that the Ranger ammo  had the most consistent speeds of any other ammo he chrono'd. The bullet in your pic looks like a Talon without the teflon.

    It is👍

    Ranger SXT's. Also known as Same eXact Talon ( inside joke)
    Good stuff. I'm happy with it.

    I just hope Zee finds something he likes for the Bulldog. I like that revolver.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,061 Senior Member
    Spk said:
    I can't tell by the picture but what is the geometry of the hollow point? Straight down or tapering? Some hollow points are made just for accuracy.
    It’s a straight cavity. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,061 Senior Member
    Spk said:
    If you remember N320.. He posted once that the Ranger ammo  had the most consistent speeds of any other ammo he chrono'd. The bullet in your pic looks like a Talon without the teflon.

    It is👍

    Ranger SXT's. Also known as Same eXact Talon ( inside joke)
    Good stuff. I'm happy with it.

    I just hope Zee finds something he likes for the Bulldog. I like that revolver.
    Oh, I already like that 215gr HBWC shot backwards at 1,000 fps. 

    That’s impressive to me. That’s what she has been loaded with ever since. 

    I’m just messing around and experimenting with other bullets at different speeds. But, I’ve found a very useful load already. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,696 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Bigslug, have you forgotten the HBWC that I shot cavity first?

    They performed beautifully!!  Why would I want to shoot a wadcutter?

    I don’t need more penetration. 
    True, but there was some talk of handling characteristics when you were cranking them to 1000 fps, as well as longevity of the gun - sadly, it ain't a Redhawk -  and then there's intentions you might have beyond knife range that will slow the bullet down to the point that it might not open. The WC will be a more consistent pile driver with a less chance of "might this" and "might that".

    Hmmmm. . .a worthwhile experiment might be to keep running them backwards like you are, but see what they do when you slow them down - both to just tame down the load and to simulate distance.  They might keep opening, but open a little less or more slowly, and actually penetrate a little more.  There is a possibility you'll find an acceptable answer that's faster back on target and easier on the gun.

    Nollij, dontcha know?  :p


    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,772 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Spk said:
    If you remember N320.. He posted once that the Ranger ammo  had the most consistent speeds of any other ammo he chrono'd. The bullet in your pic looks like a Talon without the teflon.

    It is👍

    Ranger SXT's. Also known as Same eXact Talon ( inside joke)
    Good stuff. I'm happy with it.

    I just hope Zee finds something he likes for the Bulldog. I like that revolver.
    Oh, I already like that 215gr HBWC shot backwards at 1,000 fps. 

    That’s impressive to me. That’s what she has been loaded with ever since. 

    I’m just messing around and experimenting with other bullets at different speeds. But, I’ve found a very useful load already. 
    Good to know.👍
    That Bulldog should always be on the ready-line.

    Some hollow points aren't designed to expand. I have some HAP (Hornady Action Pistol) that all have the straight down hollow points. They're not designed for expansion but for accuracy.
    You run them fast enough, they'll expand but they weren't designed for that.
    All of my defensive ammo have a tapering cavity and they all expand well over a good range of speeds.
    My carry load are the Rangers. I like them.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • sakodudesakodude Senior Member Posts: 4,754 Senior Member
    I think I might have some pure lead, those were wheel weight material. If I do I can cast some softer if you have any interest in trying them again.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,061 Senior Member
    edited September 2019 #228
    Bigslug said:
    Zee said:
    Bigslug, have you forgotten the HBWC that I shot cavity first?

    They performed beautifully!!  Why would I want to shoot a wadcutter?

    I don’t need more penetration. 
    True, but there was some talk of handling characteristics when you were cranking them to 1000 fps, as well as longevity of the gun - sadly, it ain't a Redhawk -  and then there's intentions you might have beyond knife range that will slow the bullet down to the point that it might not open. The WC will be a more consistent pile driver with a less chance of "might this" and "might that".

    Hmmmm. . .a worthwhile experiment might be to keep running them backwards like you are, but see what they do when you slow them down - both to just tame down the load and to simulate distance.  They might keep opening, but open a little less or more slowly, and actually penetrate a little more.  There is a possibility you'll find an acceptable answer that's faster back on target and easier on the gun.

    Nollij, dontcha know?  :p


    I do have the 7.0gr Trail Boss load with the HBWC that shot well and clocked 824 fps with less recoil. 

    I need to test those in water jugs and compare it to the 1,000 fps Unique load as far as expansion. 

    I also made up some 200gr Gold Dot loads with 8.0gr Trail Boss to test. 

    Need to save up some more jugs.......
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,061 Senior Member
    sakodude said:
    I think I might have some pure lead, those were wheel weight material. If I do I can cast some softer if you have any interest in trying them again.
    I’ll try anything once!

    Wait......that didn’t sound right. 😁

    Sure. If you think it’ll be softer. We can give them a try. The accuracy was there at the slower velocity. But, those suckers plowed a straight line right through 5 gallon jugs and made a dent in the hard plastic trash can!!!  😳

    Only deforming on the hard plastic!!

    So, you have some penetrators there. 😎
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • sakodudesakodude Senior Member Posts: 4,754 Senior Member
    Might be handy on pigs maybe!
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,061 Senior Member
    Spk said:
    My carry load are the Rangers. I like them.
    I have some for the .40 S&W that have done well. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,061 Senior Member
    sakodude said:
    Might be handy on pigs maybe!
    😒

    I caught 3 piglets in the trap Sunday morning. But, the little buggars found a weak joint in the wire and pushed their sorry butts through to escape!!

    Not that they would have been good ballistic fodder, but they’d have tasted good!!


    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,772 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    sakodude said:
    Might be handy on pigs maybe!
    😒

    I caught 3 piglets in the trap Sunday morning. But, the little buggars found a weak joint in the wire and pushed their sorry butts through to escape!!

    Not that they would have been good ballistic fodder, but they’d have tasted good!!


    Escape from Alcatraz!
    😁
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,061 Senior Member
    One of these guys got cooked Sunday afternoon, though. And it was awesome!




    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,772 Senior Member
    You made me hungry. Gonna grab some grub. 😋
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,061 Senior Member
    edited September 2019 #236
    Winner!

    200gr Gold Dot
    8.0gr Trail Boss
    931 fps















    Now, someone with more brains than me, explain how Unique Powder at approximately the same velocity resulted in tumbling bullets and horrendous accuracy but Trail Boss produces perfect flight, exceptional accuracy, acceptable penetration and expansion?

    I don’t get it. Accuracy, fine. Some powders are and some aren’t. But, the tumbling, I don’t understand. If there were drastic differences in velocity, yeah. But, they are basically the same. 

    I actually expected Trail Boss be a bit slower. I may even drop the powder charge a grain and have a lighter load as well. Ignore that works, I will have a light and heavy load for both the HBWC and the Gold Dot. 

    I’m a happy camper now. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    What Paul said is correct. Ignition is an event of duration. Electronic transducers more accurately reflect the entire event, revealing exactly when peak pressure happens. The old copper crusher pressure testing failed to be as precise. Unique peakes very quickly.

    Bullets that carry the weight forward of center are said to be easier to achieve accuracy that those of more rearward weight. At least in handguns.

    The Speer's appear to have lived up to their stellar reputation. At least at that speed.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,061 Senior Member
    That’s gotta be on the right track with the pressure spike. All the Unique loads from 919-985 fps tumbled. But the TB load at 931 didn’t. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,772 Senior Member
    knitepoet said:
    The initial pressure spike is probably different, allowing the bullets the "bump up" and obturate better.

    Thought just crossed my mind.... undersized cylinder mouths reducing bullet diameters,  and the differing pressure peaks allowing the bullets to bump back up when they hit the forcing cone?????

    Just a couple of thoughts of possible causes

    **This**

    Since Unique is #31 on the burn rate chart and Trail Boss is #19, Trail Boss is gonna have a better "bump". Since they're both about the same velocity, roughly the same amount of "work" is being done to the bullet in both loads. The Trail Boss load is just doing it faster -- more acceleration and probably a higher peak pressure that also drops off faster.
    What bugs me is that Unique results in tumbling bullets in the first place. I can't help but think something is slightly out of spec (oversized or worn out)
    Anyway, you have a load that works and works really well from what I'm seeing. Looks like a good porker round 🐷
    Having at least two different loads for the same bullet is always a good idea. A fun load and a serious load 👍
    Now I'm gonna return to my cave and be envious 😭
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,772 Senior Member
    Just noticed. 186 PF. That's gonna leave a mark. 165 is considered a "Major" load in the shooting sports. (aka .38 Super, .40 S&W, 45 ACP territory) Nice!
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,061 Senior Member
    Woohoo!!!!

    Yeah. I feel I’m in my hand. It ain’t a semi-auto pistol. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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