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good vid on solar and wind

VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior MemberPosts: 7,398 Senior Member

Real world examples and a good basic overview of why what goes into making "renewables" work kills the benefit.


It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
«1

Replies

  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    Excellent explanation.

  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,158 Senior Member


    Alpha will be along shortly with a 'chart' disputing this.............
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,088 Senior Member
    Can't counter his argument, so you attack his integrity instead?
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • N454casullN454casull Member Posts: 562 Senior Member
    We use to live near the Shepard Flats wind farm I believe it’s still the second largest wind farm in the world. Umatilla electric corporative(UEC) provided us with data on the wind farm. The largest USER of electricity in the winter months was the windmills in the cold if there’s no wind they have to “manually” spin the turbines to protect the windmill from damage. The amount of energy it took to do this was an absolute joke. Also per UEC data the windmills only produce electricity during a very small sweet spot of wind speed to low the blades don’t turn fast enough to high the blades turn to fast and burn things up to they are disconnected from the generator and brakes are applied. 

    Now feel free to show me all your studies and papers and research you’ve done I’ve seen with my own eyes the data from the local electric company who would love for those things to work as almost 100% of the electricity made is sold to California. Wind power just isn’t going to do it on a large scale sorry.

    Besides that if you’ve ever been to one of these places and again I don’t mean some little windmill down the road they are flat out ugly. Ruined the country side. Even all the energy hugging hippies in Portland have started to complain. 
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,398 Senior Member
    soooooo his information is wrong because..... he makes money making fun of lefties and providing a book on information he has gathered? Or just that he has a different opinion than you?. Solar and wind (and corn fuel) dont cost a butt ton more compared to their output over their useful life?

    His book is called "The Moral case for fossil fuels" btw.His think tank postulates that we need a reliable source of energy. In no argument have you or anyone else ever been able to make the case that solar and wind are reliable and cost effective.

     

    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,251 Senior Member
    I've brought it up before that fossil fuels ARE solar power, but his presentation of the "dilute" nature of solar and wind, and the "concentrated" nature of dead dinosaurs does enable a different take on it:

    A brick of coal or a gallon of oil is nothing more than sunlight stored in a bunch of leaves and critters that died a LOOONG time ago.  In effect, the leaves and critters were the solar panel and the fossil fuels are the battery they were inputting into.

    I'm no engineer, but it seems like there has to be a boatload of entropy in this equation. .  .The mining of resources and production of solar and wind equipment will require using some of that fossilized energy.  This begs the question:  "How much of the concentrated energy source are you using simply in order to capture how much of the dilute energy source?"  

    Given the cost of solar panels, evidently quite a bit.  The missus & I recently put solar panels on the house - but only because Sacramento decided to shaft SoCal Edison into requiring a certain amount of their power be "green" by a certain date.  Under the shafting, we were able to get them for nothing out of pocket and paying a reduced power bill - the one time I can think of where I might benefit from Democrats screwing over folks.  There is simply NO WAY we would have paid for them.  Assuming that the price of fossil fuel isn't being artificially inflated by greenies or profit-hungry power companies, you can buy A LOT of monthly electricity bills with what it costs to install solar.  Subsidizing the things seems to be the only feasible way, and who foots that bill?  I was happy to pass the screwing on to someone else in this case, but I'm under no illusion that someone didn't get screwed.


    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    knitepoet said:
    Can't counter his argument, so you attack his integrity instead?

    knitepoet said:
    Can't counter his argument, so you attack his integrity instead?
    Pick anyone of the many threads on energy topics and go back and read them and you'll find pages and pages of well referenced posts with actual data from me refuting all of the points made by this random dude with a philosophy degree and "think tank" in his stupid little youtube video from 4 years ago. Not going bothering to waste my time again. Feel free to believe him if you want though. 
    Annnnnnnnnd he did it again. :D:D:D
    He trash talks about coal like it is all the same, like water. It isn't the same. Here's some introductory material on types of coal. Funny a chemical engineer wouldn't know this, or pretend the differences don't exist. Except that it doesn't reinforce his argument against coal. Imagine that.



    Why do the wind generators fail?? I've explained that several times in other threads, but it has gone unnoticed. Facts tend to get in the way of a good argument, it seems. The blades on those giant windmills are variable pitch so can be turned to produce NO power ( as in when high winds make operation not possible) or turned to produce MAX power under steady and favorable wind conditions. That is one problem. Second problem is encountered when tying generator to grid or removing it from grid. A lot of things have to happen simultaneously in both situations for things to go well. If they don't then bad things happen (ERMAGERD! The wind generator is on fire!!!!!). Once tied to the grid, the generator speed is now fixed and cannot vary while tied to the grid. Complicated to explain; look it up. The tail don't wag the dog is the short description and explanation.

    Alpha hates nuclear power like the plague even though he says he doesn't. I know better from another source that he hates it. It's the cleanest of the available sources of power, though.

    And where, oh where, are those giant capacitor banks Alpha talked about several years ago? And the giant batteries to store excess power? And the giant megawatt inverters to convert the DC to AC power? It was supposed to be just around the corner.................must be a long way to that corner, I suspect. :p


      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,251 Senior Member
    A little deeper pondering on the "dilute" vs. "concentrated" line of thought that maybe some of our more engineering-educated members can expound on:

    Consider a freight train.  The locomotive pulling it could be of any type, but let's just say it's an old steam engine powered by the burning of logs.  The logs (AKA "solar batteries") boil the water, make the steam, and get the train going to a fairly impressive speed.  The train can carry enough of those batteries (logs) to travel a considerable distance.

    So what is it going to take to move that same mass down the tracks at the same speed with solar?  Even completely plating the train with panels is not likely to budge it - it's going to have to come from off the train.  How much acreage would need to be dedicated to solar panels tasked with moving the tonnage of this one freight train? 

    I think that trains are a relevant example for a couple of reasons:  (1.) if the eco-maniacs get their wish and we all give up our evil personal automobiles, how else will we travel? and (2.) transport of goods from point A to point B is a rather vital bit of the economy - can it really be done with sunbeams?
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    Bigslug, the GM Bruce 16 cylinder engine can produce 2 megawatts of power to the electric motor(s) of a diesel electric train engine. I'm familiar with them as the nuke plants had two running in tandem with a 4.2 megawatt 6.9 Kv generator between them. They're great engines but suck down a lot of fuel at full power, and are freaky noisy with the twin turbos going.  That's a crapload of solar cells to replace one of those engines.

    Steam engines could be used still, but the limiting factor is the steam pressure that can be used to drive the engine. High pressure steam is dangerous to deal with; it can cut you in half right now from a small pinhole leak. And the steam is so hot that the 'steam plume' isn't visible for several feet from the leak. The plume is actually the steam condensing back to water vapor. And the old reciprocating pistons would need to be built much heavier to handle the steam pressure along with all associated piping and controls. And steam turbines that are big enough to move an engine and a hundred car linkup would be necessarily big; too big for the track width. Medium pressure steam turbines are too bulky, and small high pressure steam turbines are way too dangerous due to the steam pressure involved.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    Another thing about steam turbine engines; the gear train would be massive to reduce the turbine shaft output speed to a usable RPM to drive the traction wheels. That would be applicable to both the medium and high pressure turbines.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,398 Senior Member
    A physicist explaining how much land area Britain would need, a eco guy so not sure how his opinion wont be worthwhile to some, but .....

    Interesting overview but the land mass part starts around 16 min. Still no solution to the fact that it isnt reliable

    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,398 Senior Member
    edited July 2019 #13
    dbl tap
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,398 Senior Member
    This is kind of interesting, dont know if its viable, but...

    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,670 Senior Member
    ............Remember when I said I could be a millionaire if I just sold my integrity? This guy is the perfect example of that path to wealth and prosperity! 
    Not if he believes what he is talking about. I wonder how many politicians, especially millionaire left-wingers can say they haven't sold out for money.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • TugarTugar Senior Member Posts: 2,221 Senior Member
    edited July 2019 #16
    I think the solution is to use it all. There are going to be niches where one tech will work better over another. Plus using it will lead us to improvements on the generation of those items. Otherwise what I am hearing is, "let's only use oil, and when that runs out, we might start working on trying something else."    

    At that point it may be too late. I am a proponent of nuclear and solar. The RTG is something I would like to see become more mainstream. Something similar was a hafnium reactor. Once bombarded with X-rays, it generates enough heat to run a turbine. 

    But again, we need to work on solar as well. Panels on house lessen the load if not able to completely run a house. 20 years ago, there was a complex built in Sebring Florida, I talked with one of the resident and he showed me his (I thin) $20 power bill for the month. The only time he had to run on the grid was during the hottest parts of the day for A/C.
    Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
    Winston Churchill
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,654 Senior Member
    edited July 2019 #17
    And there *is* that whole gross pollution side product of battery production - but that's hidden in China so it doesn't exist to the greens.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,158 Senior Member
    https://fee.org/articles/41-inconvenient-truths-on-the-new-energy-economy/?fbclid=IwAR28caJAKOxjl682SLCwfkguyj49aeQTgL2qiz9XEDcTsPnDFEg1hVmo_yQ

    See #35 and #38.........

    Just keep pretending these machines don't pollute 1000% more in China than my Ram truck does on the highway



    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,398 Senior Member
    Batteries are not an answer. They are dirty to produce, dirty to dispose of and have a limited lifespan. If one was to power a home with the best batteries he could find using wind and solar over an inverter, the usable life of the batteries (gel cells) is 5 years before they crack, go into thermal runaway, or just will not maintain the desired output. Wet cells are better, a heck of a lot more expensive and require monthly maint, but you can get 12+ years out of them.

    Solar over hydro would work, I think that instead of building a mountain, pumping into a dam or a tower(s) would be ok. That would only make it more reliable, NOT reliable. You still have to have sun/wind in sufficient quantity and quality to be able to take the excess and run pumps hard enough to pump the water and satisfy the load. 
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,654 Senior Member
    Goddess - ANYTHING is better than batteries. ANYTHING. Solar directly into the grid seems to work pretty well.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,654 Senior Member
    edited July 2019 #21
    Oh boy - this is starting to sound like yet another starry eyed acolyte - "Technology will solve ALL our problems..."
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,398 Senior Member
    There are plenty of other problems with wind and solar. Storage is only one reason they are unreliable and not cost effective. If you look at that UK map, and even in that vid it is stated that the US uses more per capita, most of the country would be covered in wind and solar farms. Not to mention that the distances are so much greater that the loss would magnify the need, or the heat factor in the transmission, or the ability to fund all of this.

    The first thing that needs to happen is that the govt stops subsidizing corn gas, wind, and solar. 
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    Speaking of government involvement, TVA's Raccoon Mountain pumped storage generating plant is a mess from an equipment standpoint. Good idea that works but the translation into operating equipment leaves something to be desired. The cracked rotors and rims are going to cost a lot to replace with new ones. Beautiful view from the top at the visitors center, though. Worth the side trip if you're driving I-75.

    Pumped storage generation is viable in many areas of the U.S. Not a bad thing environmentally, either.





    I went through the facility years ago in the mid 1980s not long after it became operational. It's something to see, especially the parts that normal visitors can't see due to security reasons. One of the perks of being a TVA nuke employee. :)
    The bald eagles and ospreys are thick up on the lake; lots of fish get pumped up to the lake and they 'suffer damage' and the ospreys and bald eagles take care of the cleanup of the dead and dying fish. And we have had seagulls up here since Hurricane Charlie blew them up here way back when. They like the free meals, too.




      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    One more thing about trains and solar cell power. Trains occasionally go through tunnels so solar cells wouldn't work. Like solar cells wouldn't work so well on cloudy days, OR AT NIGHT. Sayin'. :)
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    Houses built underground with a HUGE amount of insulation on sides and top would make big dent in heat loss. Who needs windows, anyway! People have their eyes glued to the TV or their smartypants phones, anyway, so they don't need to see out. That solution would be kind of a problem in coastal areas as digging below sea level would have some serious drawbacks.  Big cities and their population density would also present problems. Underground high rise apartments??? Just throwing out a possible solution.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 10,904 Senior Member
    Batteries are not an answer. They are dirty to produce, dirty to dispose of and have a limited lifespan. If one was to power a home with the best batteries he could find using wind and solar over an inverter, the usable life of the batteries (gel cells) is 5 years before they crack, go into thermal runaway, or just will not maintain the desired output. Wet cells are better, a heck of a lot more expensive and require monthly maint, but you can get 12+ years out of them.

    Solar over hydro would work, I think that instead of building a mountain, pumping into a dam or a tower(s) would be ok. That would only make it more reliable, NOT reliable. You still have to have sun/wind in sufficient quantity and quality to be able to take the excess and run pumps hard enough to pump the water and satisfy the load. 
    Luckily we live in a market economy and we don't have to worry about random people arguing on the internet solving all our problems. There are scientists, engineers, and investors in a market economy all working to solve them, and the ones that do it the best will profit handsomely. Right now the market is saying pumped hydro is most cost effective for longer term storage (days/weeks) and batteries are highly efficient at smoothing short term peaks and valleys in renewable generation (hours/minutes). They can actually also help to reduce the needs for extremely expensive "spinning reserves". In the end we are likely to end up with a grid that is much more flexible, nimble, and efficient.  
    You know, if the companies that Obama and the Democrats gave buckets of money to so that alternate sources of power could be experimented and expanded.  Seems they took the money, absorbed it and shut down.  Why, cause it just doesnt work, no matter how much money you throw at it.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,670 Senior Member
    I wonder how many eagles, other birds and bats will die by the time the country is covered in windmills.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    I wonder how many eagles, other birds and bats will die by the time the country is covered in windmills.
    If the companies were charged $1M per raptor and $100K per protected bat they'd find a way to stop the slaughter. They get a pass for killing the protected raptors and bats from Uncle Sugar. YOU kill one, though, and you face financial ruin.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • TugarTugar Senior Member Posts: 2,221 Senior Member
    I'd like to see a bit more work on Nickel-Iron batteries.  A bit pricey but no lead or cadmium to worry about. They also last a long time and can take abuse. Perfect for static storage.
    Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
    Winston Churchill
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,654 Senior Member
    Tugar said:
    I'd like to see a bit more work on Nickel-Iron batteries.  A bit pricey but no lead or cadmium to worry about. They also last a long time and can take abuse. Perfect for static storage.
    I know little of these - but lasting a long time is always good. I still think "some" EVs should still use lead-acid - because they're cheap albeit they don't last forever. But we probably won't see that due to the World-Wide anti-Pb hysteria - and it *is* hysteria.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 3,962 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    ...
    I still think "some" EVs should still use lead-acid - because they're cheap albeit they don't last forever.
    ...
    How about an gas-electric hybrid.

    Who said they don't last forever. :D

    The point being advances in technology will get better. It's a slow knuckle dragging process and so we won't see clear advancements in our lifetime (maybe, if we're lucky).
    Sam Colt woke up one morning and said, I've got an idea for a better pistol! He worked on it for some time before coming out with his
    1836 design produced in Paterson, New Jersey.
    In the interest of making money, other folks jumped on this gravy boat and many more crappy pistols came about -- But from all the newer crappy pistols some very good ones emerged. In time, a man named JBM said, I got an idea for a new pistol...
    Technology takes time to get right, if it's a good idea in the first place. Otherwise, to the scrapheap with the other bad ideas.
    Time will tell us which is which. It's easy to recognize crap on the surface. It's harder to recognize a diamond hidden amongst the crap pile.
    :o
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

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