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Guns and church

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  • KMT2KMT2 Member Byron Center MichiganPosts: 373 Member
    Though it drive my mom crazy, but she does not say a thing on it.
     
    If you think OHSA is a little town in Wisconsin you may be in trouble!
    Peace is firing my guns or 60 feet below the surface of the water.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,583 Senior Member
    Just because you aren't "allowed" to carry doesn't mean you aren't able to.  Think what you will, but don't be a victim of nonsensical laws.

    Carry.

    Everywhere.

    Always.

    Post office, DMV, church, kid's school functions.  

    If there is a magnetometer, well, you "forgot something in your car" and you drive off elsewhere.  I am responsible for my safety and those around me.  No one else.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • BamaakIIBamaakII Posts: 479 Member
    But Jason as an LE officer, aren't you allowed, perhaps been required to carry most places
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Podunk, Tx.Posts: 8,227 Senior Member
    In our church, there are uniformed, armed, off-duty policemen at the doors.  There may be others in the congregation who are armed.  I don't know.  The main meeting venue seats close to 1000 people (my guess), and is usually full.

    The church we attended prior to this one also had a uniformed, armed, off-duty policemen.  I don't know if there were other armed members of the congregation.

    I don't carry in church, and never have.  
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,583 Senior Member
    BamaakII said:
    But Jason as an LE officer, aren't you allowed, perhaps been required to carry most places
    Matters not.  I'm not "allowed" to carry everywhere off duty.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Actually the thought of NOT carrying in Church never entered my mind.  I’ve always carried in Church.  Never really considered it might be prohibited in some places?
  • rbsivleyrbsivley Senior Member The Heart of DixiePosts: 1,259 Senior Member
    I carry everywhere it is legal. We joined the church that we were attending when I started this conversation. The day we joined the church had their monthly Sunday lunch. While I was standing in line the guy behind me started talking to me. We had not met before. He asked where I worked I told him I was retired Army then we had some small talk. Later as I was eating he came up and said he was the deacon over the security team and asked if I carried, I answered yes. He then ask if I would be willing to serve on the church security team. Of course I said yes. So now I know there are more armed members in the service besides me. Since we have discussed some security issues I have observed.
    Randy

    Rank does not concur privileges. It imposes responsibility. Author unknow
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,772 Senior Member
    In this day and age, it's good to hear of folks like yourself getting actively involved. Churches need to be a place of both worship and safety.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Renton, WashingtonPosts: 2,598 Senior Member
    Since I started carrying, I've carried everywhere that's legal for me to do so in.  I've been asked by the presidency of my church unit not to.  I do anyway.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • bellcatbellcat Senior Member South DakotaPosts: 2,040 Senior Member
    Yes
    "Kindness is the language the deaf can hear and the blind can see." Mark Twain
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Central MNPosts: 14,656 Senior Member
    Just did my annual training, switched it up to a Glock 19 from my Kahr K9, I seemed to shoot better. After getting arm barred and "cuffed" a bunch O' times, I really don't look forward to restraining anybody intent on mayhem.   
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    DrakeFrst said:
    Why bring a gun to church? I don’t think 
    it’s worth bringing weapons to such a place, 
    I don’t understand why people do it. 
    Do you always bring a gun with you?

    If you have time to review this tragedy and the accompanying video. Its easy to see that armed attendees one in particular saved innocent people from being killed and injured.

    Link.
    https://forums.gunsandammo.com/discussion/40124/texas-church-shooting/p1
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    edited February 2020 #45
    I used to not carry at church. I'm Episcopal and there's a lot of liberal anti gunners go there.  But when that nut case shot up that Baptist Church at Southerland Springs South of San Antonio, I said enough is enough. I don't go to Church, Lodge Meetings or any public function without it. They may shoot me but I won't go down without a fight. I refuse to be a victim of some sick crazy that gets his cookies killing innocent people to build his ego. If I could get away with carrying my AR I would with two 30 round magazines taped together loaded to the gills with 65 grain Game Kings at 2950 FPS. I get pissed thinking about this.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Merrritt Island, FLPosts: 25,219 Senior Member
    Good on you Snake - messing with ANYBODY'S sacred space is a huge no-no in my book.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • AccipiterAccipiter New Member Posts: 898 Senior Member
    DrakeFrst said:
    Why bring a gun to church? I don’t think 
    it’s worth bringing weapons to such a place, 
    I don’t understand why people do it. 
    Do you always bring a gun with you?

    Sheep.  They are out there.
    Apparently free thought is punished, and conformity is required, while peckerless cowards run the show.

    ECHO...ECHO....echo...

    Ah......One savors the hypocrisy!

    Karma.........It’s a bitch.
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Pensacola, FLPosts: 10,826 Senior Member
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • KMT2KMT2 Member Byron Center MichiganPosts: 373 Member
    I made the decision long ago, I know where the aed is, the o2 tanks are, medical and that anyone that should know knows that I carry. I will not be a victim. I will lay my life down for others but not without a fight. The places we go for worship do not want me to carry, but I do. Many know I do and over look it. They also have went to the range with me and know that I hunt with a revolver so shots count. 

    On a side line note, work asked If i would be on the swat team as a trauma medic. At 50 it might seem a bit much, but Yes I will. I am still strong enough to carry my load and protect my boys in Blue. I did tell my boss that yup I Will be carrying in those events. He smiled and said ok ,but we are not buying the gin, and I have to qualify with it. I said ok which caliber, and that I can more than meet the police quals. 
     
    If you think OHSA is a little town in Wisconsin you may be in trouble!
    Peace is firing my guns or 60 feet below the surface of the water.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Central MNPosts: 14,656 Senior Member
    KMT2 said:
    I made the decision long ago, I know where the aed is, the o2 tanks are, medical and that anyone that should know knows that I carry. I will not be a victim. I will lay my life down for others but not without a fight. The places we go for worship do not want me to carry, but I do. Many know I do and over look it. They also have went to the range with me and know that I hunt with a revolver so shots count. 

    On a side line note, work asked If i would be on the swat team as a trauma medic. At 50 it might seem a bit much, but Yes I will. I am still strong enough to carry my load and protect my boys in Blue. I did tell my boss that yup I Will be carrying in those events. He smiled and said ok ,but we are not buying the gin, and I have to qualify with it. I said ok which caliber, and that I can more than meet the police quals. 
     
    A good friend was a swat team medic, he did request to qualify with all of the weapons the swat team used, they were a bit bucky about it, but since he would only be armed with a pistol, they saw the logic in case he had to pick one up while tending to one of them and defend a downed officer, he shot better than a couple of the swat team members ;) Obviously you need to carry whatever side arm the team carries.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,692 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    Any church I set foot in would probably collapse - but by all means I think church going folks should carry. Messing with ANYONE'S sacred space is a huge no-no in my ethics, and unfortunately it happens all too often.
    If I'm not in Zorba's exact philosophical boat, I'm certainly sailing in the same fleet, but the psychology of this topic does fascinate me.  There's no doubt some of the "God will protect this place so why bring a gun?" mindset out there among the more sheepish, and there's clearly plenty of the "We use the good sense God gave us to protect this place" train of thought to counter it amongst the sheepdogs.  Obviously, it's going to be a bit one-sided on a forum such as this.

    But considering that human history is rife with examples of one person or group blaming their problems on the world-view of another, I think it should take very minimal brain matter to conclude that ANY place of worship is a potential target - either from a another sect that has been at odds with it for centuries, or the disaffected youngster with a screw loose who is rebelling against mommy & daddy's message.  What better place for someone to uncork their crazy than a room full of people who they KNOW disagree with them?  If I were a church-goer, church would be about the last place I would choose to go unarmed.

    Ethically, I've always felt that a core value of the 2A is to prevent someone from making their business my business unless I choose to allow it.  This would seem to make armed defense of one's church as equally a no-brainer as armed defense of one's home.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    One of the to me obvious benifits of CC is carrying secretly.  Court houses, churches, schools. What's the difference? Its concealed.

    In the Vietnam War, Navy Corpsman Medics that accompanied Marine Corps patrols, carried slide action twelve gauge shotguns in addition to their medical bag.
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,772 Senior Member
    One only has to look at the Israeli/Palestinian conflict to know that places of worship can be battlegrounds also. I don't mean to be bumper sticker about it but, **it Happens.

    To quote a comedy about the same topic,
    Son: "... when does the fighting stop?
    Mom: "They've been fighting for 2000 years, it can't last much longer."

    That about sums it up right there. Carry whenever possible, including church.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • HemlockHemlock Posts: 9 New Member
    edited November 2021 #54
    Why are churches, schools, polling places, bars and gaming establishments so special in regards to carrying a gun for self-protection? Bad people can shoot up a church just as easily as they could shoot up a local Walmart. "No-gun zones" are just pure magnets for evil folks and armed crazy people. I get so sick of hearing the term "sensitive places" as much as I disdain the terms "gun violence" and "sensible gun laws". It's pure idyllic Leftist pablum. 
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 4,585 Senior Member
    BTW, carrying a gun in church is just a false sense of security if you don’t train, train, train!!!

    Here’s an unadulterated video of the incident.

    https://nypost.com/2019/12/29/texas-church-shooting-leaves-2-dead/

    The old Greek Philosopher saying that “you don’t rise to the level of your expectations, you fall to the level of your training” is perfectly illustrated here.

    This article shows what the effect of falling down to your level of training means.  

    The BG produces a gun.  Then a rather well intentioned hero stands up, advertises his intentions of drawing, tries to execute a totally inept draw and gives the BG about 4 seconds to recognize what he’s doing and kills him.  

    The successful shooter executes to the level of his training and gear.  He does not advertise his intentions and delivers a perfect draw and head shot at a distance where most do not even practice COM shots!  

    So again, if you intend to be your congregation’s protector PLEASE take the job seriously and practice to the right level, OR hope for luck to be on your add and if it’s not find the nearest exit and RUN before you get killed.


    It’s a °IIIII° thing 😎

  • HemlockHemlock Posts: 9 New Member
    edited November 2021 #56
    Do you need to train any more for a church than for a Walmart? I would still rather take my chances with a greenhorn good guy nearby with a gun than NO good person at all with a gun for any bad scenario in my midst, perish the thought. Regardess of training level, a gun in the hands of a complete amateur still beats the devil out of a fire extinguisher to counter a gunman. You have to know how to work a fire extinguisher too. That an innocent might get hurt in a battle with a gunman and even a well-trained good person is the just the inherent danger of living the life of American Liberty. Anti-gun laws don't help the situation. Bad guys will NOT wait for you to train to become super proficient. 

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."  - Benjamin Franklin
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 4,585 Senior Member
    Hemlock said:
    Do you need to train any more for a church than for a Walmart? I would still rather take my chances with a greenhorn good guy nearby with a gun than NO good person at all with a gun for any bad scenario in my midst, perish the thought. Regardess of training level, a gun in the hands of a complete amateur still beats the devil out of a fire extinguisher to counter a gunman. You have to know how to work a fire extinguisher too. That an innocent might get hurt in a battle with a gunman and even a well-trained good person is the just the inherent danger of living the life of American Liberty. Anti-gun laws don't help the situation. Bad guys will NOT wait for you to train to become super proficient. 

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."  - Benjamin Franklin
    Yeah the dead guy on the video really illustrates that…. I’m not worried about a greenhorn with a gun.  I’m only worried that I can do what I need to do.  The rest can fend for themselves and go through life in a state of false safety, just like dead dude…

    It’s a °IIIII° thing 😎

  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    IIRC the man that was shot and killed was over 70 years old with health problems and was still in the process of training as were other members of the church. Well his efforts were short of the ability needed to preserve his life, they may have been instrumental in the final conclusion of the incident.

    For most of us, most of the time. Mortality waits for us in the form of medical illness or arbitrary accident. Being obsessively fixated on defense from violent assault won't be helpful for those causes.

    Nothing wrong with training. It also was instrumental in the final conclusion of the refered to incident.
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 4,585 Senior Member
    IIRC the man that was shot and killed was over 70 years old with health problems and was still in the process of training as were other members of the church. Well his efforts were short of the ability needed to preserve his life, they may have been instrumental in the final conclusion of the incident.

    For most of us, most of the time. Mortality waits for us in the form of medical illness or arbitrary accident. Being obsessively fixated on defense from violent assault won't be helpful for those causes.

    Nothing wrong with training. It also was instrumental in the final conclusion of the refered to incident.
    I want to be obsessively fixated in training so I have the best chance of dying an old man in a cozy bed surrounded my loved ones and not tugging on a gun stuck in a holster while I wait for a scumbag to shoot me…

    It’s a °IIIII° thing 😎

  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    "best chance of dying in a cozy bed surrounded by my loved ones"

    Drive carefully then.
    There's training for that too BTW.
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 4,585 Senior Member
    "best chance of dying in a cozy bed surrounded by my loved ones"

    Drive carefully then.
    There's training for that too BTW.
    I’m pretty comfortable with my driving abilities.  I’m pretty comfortable with my firearms abilities too.  They are essentials skills.  Both of them…

    It’s a °IIIII° thing 😎

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